ninjablade
Banned
he's talking about ports, except for 3, many of some are inferior, more then half of them have a pretty big disadvantages in frame rate.
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Nintendo looking for Lead Graphic Engineer for Next-Gen Console SoC in Redmond
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he's talking about ports, except for 3, many of some are inferior, more then half of them have a pretty big disadvantages in frame rate.
OccamsBlender
Member
nVidia is in America. AMD is in America. Makes sense to me.
Zeyphersan
Banned
If there's any time to drop the BC, it would be now
publishers didn't seem like they were quite as bothered by such limitations as disc space in the generations preceding or succeeding that one. it's not like there were really a lot more xbox users out there either.
Way to read way too much into this. Just because they're looking for an engineer doesn't mean they're not communicating with third parties. Come on. You're assuming too much.
MrNyarlathotep
Banned
At the time the rumour I heard was that various titles were moneyhatted to delay or cancel the GC version by MS as there was so little difference in performance / visuals between the GC and Xbox ports and "power" was the Xboxes major USP.
I have no idea if this is true, but I didn't hear it from someone who was particularly a nintendo fan.
GhostTrick
Banned
It's not condensing revenue streams. It's making multiple form factors to sell a library.
Basically, it's convincing people who hate handhelds to buy it, people who hate consoles to buy it, people who wants tablet/whateveryouwant to play it.
While some people argue the biggest Wii U's problem is hardware sales, I'd argue it's software sale. How do you think Nintendo is reacting when the cheapass Donkey Kong 3DS port is selling more than the high budget Wii U Donkey Kong ?
For them, it's difficult to choose a platform to develop for. Basically, with such approach, you have keys to succeed in both Japan and West.
KojiKnight
Member
If Nintendo is going to drop any BC next gen, it will be on the console end. Nintendo has pretty much used the powerPC arch for as far as it's going to go, and unless they go fairly big on the processor for the next system, emulating BC is very unlikely (as would throwing a powerPC in for hardware BC).
I fully expect Nintendo is going to go ARM for both it's console and handheld next gen.
Stilton Disco
Member
Well yes, some European studios would be awesome too, but that's kind of irrelevant, the point is that those titles appealed to western gamers, and they're much more like the games third party Devs make these days that don't get ported to or sell well enough on Nintendo consoles.
If they want that market back, Nintendo need to make those sort of games themselves and market the hell out of them. With Iwata at the helm running everything like it's Japan, that isn't happening.
They need to either create or buy western exclusives that still feel Nintendo quality. They've not had that since the N64, and I'm certain it's a major component for their steady decline ever since.
GhostTrick
Banned
For a handheld... I see that happening. For a home console ? Not a chance. I see it at the very least displaying Wii U quality games at 1080p and 60FPS.
Sorcerer
Member
I think they will kill BC this time around.
How will Nintendo approach BC if they do?
The Gamepad is the albatross here.
BC is fine if you have a gamepad ffrom owning a Wii U already. But what if you didn't? You can't buy one separately, and there is no way in hell that gamepad is shipping with the next system.
Unless of course they state that Wii U games that required the gamepad will not work on the system. Much like some VIta games on the Playstation TV.
They have specifically said that their next console will absorb Wii U architecture. I'd be very surprised if they remove backwards compatibility.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Which is really unacceptable for a freshly launched console supposedly aimed to start a new 3D generation. Wether optimizatios would have done the trick or not, at best Nontendo is guilty of not assisting 3rd parties enough.
GhostTrick
Banned
Removing it would be a mistake to be honest. I think a lot of Wii U titles have potential to sell on next generation.
Yeah, because I'm sure these ports had top teams of 10 to 20 people, dedicated to it... wait. These were small team with a small budget and a small deadline. If we're going to go for a port comparison, make it fair at least.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
This is my expectation as well. No b/c, they will probably work with AMD for a ARM + Radeon based system.
Zeyphersan
Banned
That was in reference to their development tools and software, I thought. Not literally the chip architecture
I thought it was about the architecture as, unless I'm mistaken, they referenced VC Wii U titles being able to be on it at launch. The reference to the tools was between the new console and handheld due to them running similar architectures and same OS>
I'll try to find the quote, but it's hard as everywhere is now reporting this non-story as if the console is imminent and that it's huge news when we've known for a while that they've been working on it.
Zeyphersan
Banned
I'd appreciate it.
As someone else mentioned earlier in the thread, the Wii U has a lot of high-level stuff going on, so with enough abstraction I can definitely imagine a scenario where they don't use a PowerPC chip in the Wii U successor, but the VC games still work
That's an effect without properly establishing a cause.
Nintendo won't give us cross buy if that's the current topic at hand here. They will sell us (mostly) the same games on all devices moving forward but they will expect us to purchase a copy for every device. Because Nintendo. They will likely give a discount if you purchase digitally but for retail, nothing. For Virtual Console, I'm expecting something like a $1 fee.
I'm also expecting some kind of hardware gimmick for both console and handheld, something to make them stand out from the competition and each other (after all, they want you to buy both even if they have the same games).
The console will be low power and I can already see the "It's two Wii U's duct taped together!" comments now.
This is Iwata's Nintendo now.
I think the name NGS would be decent (Nintendo Game System) for the handheld. For the console we call it the SNGS.
I'm also expecting some kind of hardware gimmick for both console and handheld, something to make them stand out from the competition and each other (after all, they want you to buy both even if they have the same games).
The console will be low power and I can already see the "It's two Wii U's duct taped together!" comments now.
This is Iwata's Nintendo now.
I think the name NGS would be decent (Nintendo Game System) for the handheld. For the console we call it the SNGS.
GhostTrick
Banned
Well... if they want to sell the same games on both platform, it's not gonna work. They need to work on a solid plan.
They have specifically said otherwise. They said that their next platform is more the Nintendo Network ID which will be shared across both handheld and console with the same OS. As such, if there is a game across both platforms, chances are there would be cross buy.
They won't be the same device, though.
You're putting assumptions ahead of facts here.
Zeyphersan
Banned
They've already said they won't do that, so........ I don't know what you're on about
Iwata already said he plans to move to an account based system and an ecosystem in line with iOS and Android so I think cross-buy is a likely possibility.
GhostTrick
Banned
Nintendo says a lot of things. Even when it sounds obvious, you need to be sure they don't do the opposite.
Finaika
Member
YES
Perhaps, but it's a bit ridiculous to go on insisting they'll do the opposite to the plans the laid down in the past few investor meetings.
GhostTrick
Banned
It's not giving two games, it's the same game, since these are supposed to be the same platform with a different form factor. But yeah, I wouldn't say for sure they wouldn't do what you're saying.
That's why they need to work on a solid plan to allow such a thing at retail. Using same media for both consoles ? So cartridge maybe ? Selling the handheld version at cheaper price, but home console at higher price and including a voucher for a digital version for handheld ?
Yup. While you can't say for sure they'll do a crossbuy thing for every titles, you can't say ever they won't, at this point.
KojiKnight
Member
It's right not to assume anything with Nintendo, but it's also fair to say that if they say something they will likely follow to the letter of what they said unless something big changes.
The handheld and the console are definitely going to be two different things, but we do know the goal is to make them as cross-polinating as possible. They want to release the same game and have it work on both systems to help remove the 'droughts' that occur when they can't publish enough titles for 2 platforms at once.
The problem is going to be making sure that said games don't feel gimped on either platform while also making the console version feel like a step up.
Knowing what we know from that, we can safely assume that the primary control method for both systems is going to be identical. This does NOT preclude the WiiU gamepad or something similar, and by the time the next gen system is out, the price for such hardware may be much better where it won't effect the system's cost as negatively as it did with the Wii U. But that's getting ahead of things because it definitely doesn't mean it will be used either.
(edit)On the subject of cross-buying... A lot of what Nintendo feels is the problem is that their audience is segmented. There are certainly people who own a Wii U AND a 3DS, but it's much more likely that someone owns a Wii U OR a 3DS... So that game that sells for $50 may only be reaching half the audience it could be reaching, by releasing on both platforms and cross buying they open up the sales of that game to more users AND rewarding the most loyal users who own both.
I'm not saying it's a definite, but there is real financial motive for this.
The handheld and the console are definitely going to be two different things, but we do know the goal is to make them as cross-polinating as possible. They want to release the same game and have it work on both systems to help remove the 'droughts' that occur when they can't publish enough titles for 2 platforms at once.
The problem is going to be making sure that said games don't feel gimped on either platform while also making the console version feel like a step up.
Knowing what we know from that, we can safely assume that the primary control method for both systems is going to be identical. This does NOT preclude the WiiU gamepad or something similar, and by the time the next gen system is out, the price for such hardware may be much better where it won't effect the system's cost as negatively as it did with the Wii U. But that's getting ahead of things because it definitely doesn't mean it will be used either.
(edit)On the subject of cross-buying... A lot of what Nintendo feels is the problem is that their audience is segmented. There are certainly people who own a Wii U AND a 3DS, but it's much more likely that someone owns a Wii U OR a 3DS... So that game that sells for $50 may only be reaching half the audience it could be reaching, by releasing on both platforms and cross buying they open up the sales of that game to more users AND rewarding the most loyal users who own both.
I'm not saying it's a definite, but there is real financial motive for this.
i wonder if they would work on a program where you could buy retail and get a discount on crossbuy, or simply purchase digitally and get both. my guess is that the 'platform' is actually the account system, and that you only need one of the two pieces of hardware to run games from that account system. however, buying retail would mean you don't actually tie the game into the account library unless you unlock it somehow. $40 games at retail for everything, $50 digitally. if you want it just for the one platform you own, get the retail version. want it for both (and to have it for future platforms), get the digital one.
GhostTrick
Banned
Except if they both used the same media. To be honest, I think cartridges would work really well on this. As for Wii U BC... well, maybe include a Wii U disc reader on a premium version for the home console ?
My realistic wish/expectation list:
- new portable device will be powered somewhere between wii & wiiU CPU wise but with a modern GPU architecture 480p.
- new home console will be with a ps4-X1 comparable CPU, and more modern GPU, giving it a slight advantage over current gen.
- Almost all portable games can be played (ie sold) on the new home console. If you own one of those on the portable, you can upgrade it for a small fee and have it on the home console (or vice versa) . No pure cross-buy but the model they have been testing on the European eshop for a while now.
They will know you "bought" the game physically because you can scan in their unique NFC codes.
- There will be console exclusive games that are not playable on the portable.
- The gamepad stays as an optional controller with offtv play as it's basic function. This is kind of good news for Wii U owners who really like it. It also lets them sell their stock of gamepad controllers.
- QoL platform is seperate, but software build for it will run on both the portable and console platform. They form part of the same ecosystem.
End of 2015 QoL in japan, 2016 for portable, 6-12 months later for the console.
- new portable device will be powered somewhere between wii & wiiU CPU wise but with a modern GPU architecture 480p.
- new home console will be with a ps4-X1 comparable CPU, and more modern GPU, giving it a slight advantage over current gen.
- Almost all portable games can be played (ie sold) on the new home console. If you own one of those on the portable, you can upgrade it for a small fee and have it on the home console (or vice versa) . No pure cross-buy but the model they have been testing on the European eshop for a while now.
They will know you "bought" the game physically because you can scan in their unique NFC codes.
- There will be console exclusive games that are not playable on the portable.
- The gamepad stays as an optional controller with offtv play as it's basic function. This is kind of good news for Wii U owners who really like it. It also lets them sell their stock of gamepad controllers.
- QoL platform is seperate, but software build for it will run on both the portable and console platform. They form part of the same ecosystem.
End of 2015 QoL in japan, 2016 for portable, 6-12 months later for the console.
It'll be crossbuy on DIGITAL only. Nintendo gets a larger portion of the profit and buyers are more likely to want to buy digital games because they can play the game across Nintendo's devices.
Remember it's not just home console and portable. They could experiment with other form factors if they don't have to worry as much about developing specifically for more pieces of hardware.
I'm sure there will still be exclusive titles that take advantage of the specific advantages of certain form factors (Wii Sports, Nintendo Land, Pokemon etc) but most of Nintendo's games can be played on any of their modern systems.
It's going to be very interesting seeing how Nintendo handles the transition.
dickgumshoe
Member
I think it was one of their goals. You don't seem to care about it, others might.
But I don't know why you keep going on about this excuse thing.
Tell me where cross buy is mentioned in these investor meetings. You are the one making assumptions here. Shared OS = Cross Buy! Come on. This is Nintendo. The company that keeps game prices high throughout the entire generation. The company with no greatest hits line on either device currently. Back in the late Gamecube days Nintendo decided to simply stop printing copies of Mario Power Tennis rather than drop the price from $50 and ship more. And you think they are about to give away a copy of a brand new game on one console because you bought on another?
Didn't say cross-buy was clearly stated. I said that it was likely based on how they explained the interaction between handheld and console, and so if there are titles on both, then there's likely to be crossbuy. Please refrain from putting words in my mouth.
Pellegri Testament
Member
A lot of you guys act like this is going to be in the very near future and are thinking up all these details to get hyped for it, when in reality you won't even see this thing till late 2016/2017 at the earliest.
Them looking to hire someone literally means nothing as this is what everyone does years before a new console comes out. This isn't magically going to pop out in the next year or even set the world on fire unless Nintendo actually makes some progress with 3rd parties. Whether you saw this tomorrow or even 3 years from now, it will not matter if they do nothing to gain back that trust from other developers, something that also isn't going to magically come back just because they release something new.
Them looking to hire someone literally means nothing as this is what everyone does years before a new console comes out. This isn't magically going to pop out in the next year or even set the world on fire unless Nintendo actually makes some progress with 3rd parties. Whether you saw this tomorrow or even 3 years from now, it will not matter if they do nothing to gain back that trust from other developers, something that also isn't going to magically come back just because they release something new.
Iwata never explicitly said one software purchase would unlock the game on every device, so until that is stated, it would be smart to assume otherwise.
- Crossbuy would be very un-nintendo'ish. Software is their primary product. You will have to pay extra to play it on every device you own.
- I also don't believe in crossbuy for nintendo because it's a disadvantage for 3rd party devs (fifa portable / fifa console, or monster hunter portable vs monster hunter HD).
It would be a big motivator to get companies like EA invested in making (semi-exclusive) portable software that can also be sold for an extra in the console space. I would say tactically there are some serious benefits for both nintendo and it's partners - and it will already be better for consumers compared to the current situation.
- I do believe in premium digital versions that sell on both for a higher price.
- I do think there will be discounts if you already have the game on another device (see their current eshop strategy, especially in EU).
Edit: I just thought of someting: it would also be the first time a main entry pokemon game comes to their console.
- I also don't believe in crossbuy for nintendo because it's a disadvantage for 3rd party devs (fifa portable / fifa console, or monster hunter portable vs monster hunter HD).
It would be a big motivator to get companies like EA invested in making (semi-exclusive) portable software that can also be sold for an extra in the console space. I would say tactically there are some serious benefits for both nintendo and it's partners - and it will already be better for consumers compared to the current situation.
- I do believe in premium digital versions that sell on both for a higher price.
- I do think there will be discounts if you already have the game on another device (see their current eshop strategy, especially in EU).
Edit: I just thought of someting: it would also be the first time a main entry pokemon game comes to their console.
No, most people in this thread realistically assume 2016-2017 timeframe
I don't say they will disallow it, but they will not do it themselves and thus "force" it as the default.
You guys do realise that cross buy does exist on Nintendo formats right now, when developers choose it, right? I see it being no different now. People act like crossbuy would be a mandatory thing. Why would it? The system exists now on two formats with different OSs and architectures. We have a coming handheld and console that are said to share similar architecture and the same OS. Logic dictates that if the publisher wishes to implement crossbuy, they certainly will be able to.
That's more about Nintendo being concerned with retaining value in their products. It can't be used as an argument against cross buy.
Again Iwata specifically stated he wanted to move to an ecosystem as the business model going forward beginning with their next system. He pointed directly to iOS and Android as examples and mentioned that they do not have to worry about software droughts because software works across all devices that run on that ecosystem.
This isn't an argument about how cheap Nintendo is or isn't. This is a brand new business model for the company and Iwata has specifically stated his intention to move in that direction.
Besides, look at the sales of key games on Wii U. How much more software would Nintendo have moved if certain games were cross platform? How many more Wii U consoles would have been sold if key Nintendo 3DS games were playable on Wii U? Imagine buying a Wii U and being able to play games that you owned on 3DS on your home console? How many more new games would Nintendo have been able to make instead of making a Mario Kart specifically for 3DS and then for WiiU. Or New Super Mario Bros, or Animal Crossing (we know that's on the way), or any other game that is clearly playable across platforms?
My point is that the question we should be asking is not how cheap we think Nintendo is but how could they use this kind of ecosystem to their advantage? Why are they talking about it? If you try to break down the benefits, then you can begin to understand what Nintendo themselves might be thinking. Iwata wouldn't be interested if it was going to lose the company money.
That was to investors. That eco system is THEIR ecosystem of only having to develop software once and being able to sell it twice or to a broader audience. It's brilliant and it is indeed a new direction for them as a software company and their software strategy.
So everything you say is correct, but I don't see ANY reasons why they should give their software away "for free" just because you bought another box of them that made them 50$. It's having their cake and eating it too. Broader audience + less costs + selling upgrades.
Pellegri Testament
Member
Sales say otherwise when it comes to the n64 "wowing" people. You would have a point if it were the Wii and how revolutionary it was when it came to getting people to play, that time is past though and you will likely never see another 100mil+ system on the market.
The plan should be to lower software prices across the board. That should be enough. Something like $19.99-$29.99 for all portable games, $39.99-$49.99 for all console games. Discount on one version if you buy digitally on another device.
That's about it. You want it portable? Buy the handheld version. You want it on your TV? Buy the console version.
It also wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if Nintendo staggered the releases for game software across devices simply to avoid the questions about cross buy and to continue selling at full retail price. For example, lets say Fire Emblem hits handheld at $29.99, 6 months later it hits console at the same price or even $10 higher or something.
Not true.
Wii U has a more modern GPU (Latte) than Xbox 360 (Xenos) and PS3 (RSX) in terms of shader model features (SM 4.1 vs SM3.X) but lower actual performance / horsepower due to the small number of shader processors.
Also, Wii U's main memory bandwidth (12.8 GB/s) is also inferior to that of Xbox 360 (22.4 GB/sec) and PS3 (25.6 GB/sec for Cell, 22.4 GB/sec for RSX) Although Wii U GPU has EDRAM, so does Xbox 360's GPU, both are different but Wii U doesn't really have any advantage there in terms of bandwidth, only the amount of EDRAM is bigger (32 MB vs 10 MB).
Nevermind the Wii U CPU, it isn't even comparable to Xenon or Cell. The only thing that really stands out in Wii U's favor is the amount of RAM it has (2GB total) with 1 GB reserved for games. And more modern shader features. Everything else hardware wise is pretty much in favor of Xbox 360 and PS3.
It's pretty sad actually. I mean, Xbox 360 launched November 2005, it's decade old hardware set in stone in late 2004, and Wii U was revealed in 2011, launched 2012 with (in many ways, though not all) weaker hardware.