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[Deleted member 30609]

no, see, i think if a platformer had to do any one thing great, it should be level design. nsmbw does that. smg doesn't. smg's more of a jack of all trades. it's the skyward sword of 3d mario games.

I think we might fundamentally disagree about what makes good level design. It's more than, say, difficulty or even structure. It's about finishing a scenario and having it branded on the outer-wall of your skull because of how everything came together. Sometimes this might be because of a particularly ingenious take on much-covered ground, but generally -- and this is just a rule of thumb -- it happens when I'm presented with something that is completely unexpected. Galaxy constantly surprised me, NSMBW didn't. I was thoroughly entertained by NSMBW, but when I remember the act of playing a 2D Mario game, I'll think of flying for the first time in SMB3 or hitting the top of flag-pole at the end of 1-1. When I think of a 3D Mario game, Galaxy and SM64 will always occupy separate sections of my memory. That's completely invaluable, in any form of entertainment. It's also highly subjective, granted. I don't place as much emphasis on genre-specific intricacies as you do, but I certainly don't think I'm alone in doing so. It's part of the reason Half-Life 2 or Resident Evil 4 will always be stronger games to me than mechanically 'superior' shooters.

In that sense, I also don't think Skyward Sword and Galaxy are the same class of game, but that's kind of a secondary point here.

 

[monome]

Disappointing. They really need a new artstyle or at least new environments (Desert, Snow, Beach are really stale). I think NSMBW offered everything that was possible in that style. If it's just a NSMBW HD I won't be buying it. I would be a missed opportunity. I want crazy level designs, rotating blocks, tempo-based levels and so on. I would be happy with more abstract backgrounds or heavily stylized. But I don't see how in one year they could make changes like that.

Yoshi's Island will shine much more in HD.
Plu let's see what Super Mario 4 is about.

All in all Nintendo needs a Mario plateformer at launch, and it seems they will deliver.

 

[Fabrik]

I also find strange there's another 2D Mario game coming out on 3DS at the end of the year. There's something fishy going on here!

 

[AniHawk]

I think we might fundamentally disagree about what makes good level design. It's more than, say, difficulty or even structure. It's about finishing a scenario and having it branded on the outer-wall of your skull because of how everything came together. Sometimes this might be because of a particularly ingenious take on much-covered ground, but generally -- and this is just a rule of thumb -- it happens when I'm presented with something that is completely unexpected. Galaxy constantly surprised me, NSMBW didn't. I was thoroughly entertained by NSMBW, but when I remember the act of playing a 2D Mario game, I'll think of flying for the first time in SMB3 or hitting the top of flag-pole at the end of 1-1. When I think of a 3D Mario game, Galaxy and SM64 will always occupy separate sections of my memory. That's completely invaluable, in any form of entertainment. It's also highly subjective, granted. I don't place as much emphasis on genre-specific intricacies as you do, but I certainly don't think I'm alone in doing so. It's part of the reason Half-Life 2 or Resident Evil 4 will always be stronger games to me than mechanically 'superior' shooters.

i don't know. half-life 2 is pretty well-designed all-around. i don't play too many shooters outside of valve's stuff so i guess i don't have much to compare it to, though. i think the level design is pretty strong, and particularly so in episode 2. resident evil 4 is also pretty good in that regard. the first village and the many, many different paths you can take to fending yourself off from enemies was a showcase of how good the level design was.

but to me, platformers are closer to puzzle games than say, shooters or rpgs. they're about skill and reflexes and solving problems quickly. so a platformer can afford to miss out on aspects that would make it look or sound great. it just has to play great.

In that sense, I also don't think Skyward Sword and Galaxy are the same class of game, but that's kind of a secondary point here.

i think they share many of the same reasons people like them and dislike them. skyward sword being so much longer makes the problems the games share more pronounced.

if i wasn't so damn tired i'd go into it more, but the handholding, oddly-designed hub world, and slow learning curve to appease gamers unused to handling games in 3d are problems found in both.

 

[Sylfurd]

 

[JosephManderley]

Read this thread before the update - got excited.

Read it again this morning and the update has killed my hype.

 

[Fabrik]

It's a shame about the artstyle because the level design look crazy enough!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYs42snbdRQ

 

[Shiggy]

So will it be the same game as on 3DS? A Smash Bros situation?

But not surprising as Koizumi said that they had not received Wii U dev kits by last E3.

 

[Mojojo]

disappointing news, and I really hope Nintendo doesn't spend 30 min of their presentation on this, demoed by Miyamoto on stage <.< .
I wonder if Nintendo will even have a game to showcase the Wii U HD graphics or if they want to avoid going that way ; maybe they wouldn't be able to match graphically PS3/X360 latest productions if the rumors are to be believed (I had doubt already with with the Aonuma interview saying Nintendo would need other studios' help for extensive HD graphics)....

Alright, now I am ready to enter E3 with very low expectations, it can only get better from there right?

 

[Mpl90]

This, or 3DS is really something different.
I mean, I've seen again what Iwata said at the January's investor meeting

Although there is no logo here, we are planning to release a totally new side-scrolling action Super Mario in 2D as a key title for the Nintendo 3DS in the next fiscal year.

Why to specify 2D when you've already said "side-scrolling action". You should understand now what it should mean.

 

[The Xtortionist]

what nsmbw has, imo, is the best physics in the series. just running and jumping around in the game is extremely fun.

I found the physics to be abysmal. The characters have low traction and are floaty as hell. Felt like I had to constantly compensate for the characters' loose movement. SMB3 and SMW's physics were snappier and more precise.

 

[A.KU.MU]

Based On E3 2011 Game

Ha, I knew it!

 

[DECK'ARD]

Will hate Mii's being in it, but interested in seeing what they do with it anyway.

Like the idea of going down pipes into underground levels on the tablet's screen.

 

[Triton55]

Y'know these boss rooms from NSMBWii actually look fairly nice and ornate, I think the problem isn't really the visual style itself (though something more like Wario Land Shake It! would still be much preferable) so much as that they recycled the same old boring 8 level themes over and over. If the final game shows some different level themes, I'll be happy.

 

[Winnie the Pimp]

As usual, not Nintendo is to blame (well kinda for being greedy i guess) but the casualtards that eat up the NSMB kinda games instead of buying the 3D ones like Galaxy (not dissing NMSB as a game as i really digged it myself)

i know that it is the casual gamer that keeps this industry going right now but damnit, i'd be lying if i didn't wish we were back in simpler times where there would be overall LESS sales but games were being made exclusively to cater to the hardcore and to innovate first.

The way things are going nowadays it's you make whatever SELLS first and foremost, the rest is negligible

 

[eXistor]

Well this is...disappointing. I'm sure the game is gonna be fun, but damn Nintendo, at least please change the art style. I must say I'm very disappointed Nintendo isn't going all out with Mario. A 3D Mario launch title would have guaranteed Wii U's initial success, I'm sure a game like that is a gargantuan undertaking and might be hard to finish in time, but come on, this just reeks of cash-in. *pre-orders it*

 

[Gravijah]

It did a good job, but in general the 2.5D Mario games don't feel as snappy to me as the sprite based games (with the exception of perhaps Super Mario Bros. and Lost Levels). NSMB Wii was definitely a damn sight better than its predecessor in that regard though. Well, in pretty much every regard really.

I found the physics to be abysmal. The characters have low traction and are floaty as hell. Felt like I had to constantly compensate for the characters' loose movement. SMB3 and SMW's physics were snappier and more precise.

that's just another good thing about the series, every game plays differently and everyone has their own preferences.

 

[StreetsAhead]

As usual, not Nintendo is to blame (well kinda for being greedy i guess) but the casualtards that eat up the NSMB kinda games instead of buying the 3D ones like Galaxy (not dissing NMSB as a game as i really digged it myself)

i know that it is the casual gamer that keeps this industry going right now but damnit, i'd be lying if i didn't wish we were back in simpler times where there would be overall LESS sales but games were being made exclusively to cater to the hardcore and to innovate first.

The way things are going nowadays it's you make whatever SELLS first and foremost, the rest is negligible

Well this is...disappointing. I'm sure the game is gonna be fun, but damn Nintendo, at least please change the art style. I must say I'm very disappointed Nintendo isn't going all out with Mario. A 3D Mario launch title would have guaranteed Wii U's initial success, I'm sure a game like that is a gargantuan undertaking and might be hard to finish in time, but come on, this just reeks of cash-in. *pre-orders it*

lol

If you combine Super Mario Sunshine, Galaxy, and Galaxy 2 sales you end up with less than New Super Mario Bros. Wii.

If you combine Super Mario 64, Galaxy, and Galaxy 2 sales you end up with slightly less than New Super Mario Bros.

More perspective:

NSMBW has sold over double the life-time sales of the console Uncharted series.
NSMBW has sold more than all the console Zeldas since Ocarina (minus MM*) combined.
NWSBW has sold more than double the entire output of Retro Studios since Prime (minus Trilogy*)

*Couldn't find numbers.

 

[axisofweevils]

Let's not forget that a full game, while still being based on a tech demo, can look extremely different.
And this is probably a bad example, because in this case, a lot of people would have prefered that Nintendo stuck to the look of the tech demo...
I'm just saying, things can change.

 

[Ragus]

NSMBWii is a great game and no one should call it "trash". It's the graphics style that bothers everyone, including myself. I hope it'll change.

 

[Shiggy]

Let's not forget that a full game, while still being based on a tech demo, can look extremely different.
And this is probably a bad example, because in this case, a lot of people would have prefered that Nintendo stuck to the look of the tech demo...
I'm just saying, things can change.

Let's not forget that this hasn't happened since the GCN tech demos.

 

[Winnie the Pimp]

The gameplay of NSMBWii is very good, if only it had more of a soul and looked better it would have been an awesome addition to the 2D mario verse...

I mean look at something like Rayman Origins, now THAT is how you do 2D art, but ironic as it is, if you compare the sales of the two then... ugh

 

[Ushojax]

The gameplay of NSMBWii is very good, if only it had more of a soul and looked better it would have been an awesome addition to the 2D mario verse...

I mean look at something like Rayman Origins, now THAT is how you do 2D art, but ironic as it is, if you compare the sales of the two then... ugh

2D Mario will never have an art style like Rayman Origins. It's too complex visually and would be extremely complicated for a lot of people to get to grips with. The accessibility of the game will always come first for Nintendo. They want to keep it as close to the NES games as possible when it comes to the action on screen.

 

[BY2K]

Let's not forget that this hasn't happened since the GCN tech demos.

Did the Wii even had tech demos? I mean, it WAS Gamecube hardware, after all.

 

[Gravijah]

they can keep the simple look while still making the game look good. the music in nsmbw was also nowhere as good as prior entries.

Did the Wii even had tech demos? I mean, it WAS Gamecube hardware, after all.

wii sports

 

[Winnie the Pimp]

2D Mario will never have an art style like Rayman Origins. It's too complex visually and would be extremely complicated for a lot of people to get to grips with. The accessibility of the game will always come first for Nintendo. They want to keep it as close to the NES games as possible when it comes to the action on screen.

yeah i know, and no one expects it to, it was just an example to showcase that great artwork in 2D games is indeed possible and achievable, they are both ends of the extreme.

If you look at something like Yoshi's Island though, that looked amazing and creative as well!

 

[Ushojax]

they can keep the simple look while still making the game look good. the music in nsmbw was also nowhere as good as prior entries.

For sure, the backdrops were mostly hideous and the music was a bit limp. But people who want hyper detailed environments, intricately modeled characters, etc are going never going to get them.

 

[Neon_Icarus]

So in 2012, is Nintendo making a New Super Mario Bros -style game for both the Wii U and 3DS? I wonder how large a portion of their developers these two games will take?

(Unless the 3DS one is outsourced, of course...)

 

[monome]

I also find strange there's another 2D Mario game coming out on 3DS at the end of the year. There's something fishy going on here!

they don't need to push 3DS-WiiU interaction right off the bat.

Better offer a sophisticated 2D mario on 3DS and not a "New" to see what sticks and release a quick a dirty cash maker on WiiU to satisfy both players and shareholders.

galaxy WiiU will come, but let it get a proper dev time.

 

[Gravijah]

But people who want hyper detailed environments, intricately modeled characters, etc are going never going to get them.

oh, yeah, i agree there.

 

[KiNeSiS]

The game play of NSMBWii is very good, if only it had more of a soul and looked better it would have been an awesome addition to the 2D mario verse...

I mean look at something like Rayman Origins, now THAT is how you do 2D art, but ironic as it is, if you compare the sales of the two then... ugh

I agree with you. Still you are naive if you believe that the art was the deciding factor of why Mario titles sell more than fucking Rayman. Mario would sell even more with that 2d sprite style in HD. Rayman may have appeared in a few good games that never changed the fact that he/she/it is a shitty character. A very shitty character in fact. People talk about Sonic's shitty friends who are quiet shitty, indeed. Still, Rayman's allies are a fucking sewer treatment plant in terms of character design. That's a very bad thing.
Super Mario 4 life!

 

[daakusedo]

I didn't remember that NSMBW took a lot of the same graphical elements with the ds one ( some will say that's normal...) but I thought with the better resolution and power it realized the potential of it by the gained cleanliness and subtle things like lava particles and reflects on bean mountain, castle walls etc...

So for me the problem will be if the new game was like the wiiu demo and just use same locations and assets.
The nsmb series bring few new locations like the cliffs, beach and the poisoned forest, and a mention to the volcano area, so that will be interesting to see what they can bring now.

 

[DECK'ARD]

The gameplay of NSMBWii is very good, if only it had more of a soul and looked better it would have been an awesome addition to the 2D mario verse...

I mean look at something like Rayman Origins, now THAT is how you do 2D art, but ironic as it is, if you compare the sales of the two then... ugh

Yeah lack of soul is a good way to describe them, it's also what bothers me personally. With the inclusion of Mii's just breaking it even more. Mario has such a charm about it, and a great little Universe built up, that it's jarring to not see it presented in a way that reflects that. It's not that it's bad, just ... bland.

With the popularity of the New Super Mario games you do have to wonder whether that blanding-down actually works and has a point, or whether it's the game succeeding anyway in spite of it.

Personally I'd like to see them be a lot bolder with it, but as a successful template has now been created I'm not expecting it. At least we have the 3D Marios to do that, it's just a shame not to get the 2D ones presented in a similar imaginative way. More than a shame, a waste really.

 

[BGBW]

Out of curiosity, does GAF feel Miis ruin the feel of Mario Kart? I actually main my Mii in 7.

 

[DECK'ARD]

Out of curiosity, does GAF feel Miis ruin the feel of Mario Kart? I actually main my Mii in 7.

I feel that they can get away with it in MK because at the end of the day the kart is as much of the focus as who's in it.

In effect it's hidden a lot more, when you put the full focus on it like in a Mario game it breaks the look and the world that's been created around those characters completely.

 

[Winnie the Pimp]

I agree with you. Still you are naive if you believe that the art was the deciding factor of why Mario titles sell more than fucking Rayman. Mario would sell even more with that 2d sprite style in HD. Rayman may have appeared in a few good games that never changed the fact that he/she/it is a shitty character. A very shitty character in fact. People talk about Sonic's shitty friends who are quiet shitty, indeed. Still, Rayman's allies are a fucking sewer treatment plant in terms of character design. That's a very bad thing.
Super Mario 4 life!

no, NSMBW sold not because of the artstyle but because it's 2D mario that is all... and Rayman is much lesser known to the casuals than Mario obviously.

So yeah there is no link between the artstyle and sales besides being more "accessible" and simple if you will so that casuals can understand how it works and won't be intimidated or something...

As for the characters, not sure if Mario's "characters" are all the more appealing than Rayman's, they're just better known and have more of a history to them i guess.

 

[Barack Lesnar]

It's a shame about the artstyle because the level design look crazy enough!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYs42snbdRQ

This doesn't look interesting in the least to me. I can't tell these 2D Mario games apart. Just going from left to right, no story or voice-acting or any kind of emotional investment, just running and jumping from left to right. I find that very boring for some reason... a game more suitable for a handheld.

 

[Winnie the Pimp]

This doesn't look interesting in the least to me. I can't tell these 2D Mario games apart. Just going from left to right, no story or voice-acting or any kind of emotional investment, just running and jumping from left to right. I find that very boring for some reason... a game more suitable for a handheld.

wait i haven't seen any footage as of yet but ... is that seriously supposed to be early footage of the game? sure they are bound to change some things up still but ugh that looks EXACTLY like NSBMWii except for the HD part, i mean it kinda looks like they were using "Mario Maker 2009" for both games or something lol ;(

 

[radcliff]

So in 2012, is Nintendo making a New Super Mario Bros -style game for both the Wii U and 3DS? I wonder how large a portion of their developers these two games will take?

(Unless the 3DS one is outsourced, of course...)

Well, EAD 4 (the NSMB team) hasn't released anything since 2009 (although they are most likely working on Pikmin 3 given the director of the first 2 games [Shigefumi Hino] is part of this group). Assuming the Pikmin team is separate from the Mario team, it will be 3 years since the release of NSMBWii when the Wii U is released. Perhaps they were working on both the 3DS and Wii U version simultaneously and that is why it has been so long since they have released a game.

 

[kinggroin]

This doesn't look interesting in the least to me. I can't tell these 2D Mario games apart. Just going from left to right, no story or voice-acting or any kind of emotional investment, just running and jumping from left to right. I find that very boring for some reason... a game more suitable for a handheld.

The 2D games are perfectly suitable for either handheld or console. Not sure how emotional investment factors into ANY Mario game quite frankly; it's always been about pure platforming mechanics and light puzzle solving (with differently themed areas providing gameplay gimmicks to break things up).

Also, it's not just "left to right". That's a gross simplification.

 

[StAidan]

The 2D aspect being confirmed is definitely increasing my hype level, since I like those much more than the 3D Mario games. But if they reuse the art style from NSMB again, Nintendo can count me out. I loved NSMBW, but the art and music were completely uninspired.

 

[Aostia]

NSMBWii is a great game and no one should call it "trash". It's the graphics style that bothers everyone, including myself. I hope it'll change.

I quote.
The Wii episode was a great game, both under the level design point of view and the local multiplayer point of view.

 

[Pat]

The gameplay was great, but everything else was bland, indeed.

I still don't understand why Nintendo is not making a good, real 3D Mario game in a somewhat sandbox in the Mushroom Kingdom.

 

[Skiesofwonder]

Is the artstyle and Mii inclusion really THAT big of a deal? Last time I checked NSMBW was one of the best Wii games and a great side-scrolling Mario which we hadn't seen on a home console in, what...... 20 years?

I welcome a sequel with open arms.

 

[Winnie the Pimp]

The gameplay was great, but everything else was bland, indeed.

I still don't understand why Nintendo is not making a good, real 3D Mario game in a somewhat sandbox in the Mushroom Kingdom.

Like it was established before, it is simply because they have now understood that the casual audience (mainly) WILL buy up their games like there is no tomorrow if they follow the NSMBWii formula as was made evident by the sales numbers compared to the 3D marios...

So why SHOULD they? (and no, just because WE would like them to is not a good enough answer unfortunately)

 

[1-D_FTW]

For sure, the backdrops were mostly hideous and the music was a bit limp. But people who want hyper detailed environments, intricately modeled characters, etc are going never going to get them.

I don't think it's asking too much for it to at least look as good as the last mainstream 2D Mario game ever released on a console: SMW 2: Yoshi's Island. It's a real slap when 15 years later we're looking at decreased aesthetics.

 

[DECK'ARD]

Also I can quite easily see it being a pack-in game and that being the plan all along. If it does end up being a recycled NSMB Wii, that be a bit more forgiveable.

One of the things that stuck out last E3 was how Nintendo seemed to be struggling with the killer-app for the concept, mainly hampered by the one controller limitation. They need their Wii Sports killer-app, but it's a lot harder to come up with this time.

I think this game may be their way of side-stepping that issue for a while, it's a killer-app in the bundle sense. Presenting new ideas in it, and other titles like Pikmin, but not relying on just one game to sell the concept of the system to people.

 

[radioheadrule83]

TBH all this needs is awesome creative levels like 8-7 from NSMBWii, the pleasing longevity and difficulty of 3D Land, and Online Multiplayer. It'd automatically be the game of the forever.

I'm in. I don't get why people were lumping 3D land in with NSMB in the art-style discussions, 3D Land looks a billion times better and is way more creative. Dat last bowser castle --- dayummmmm

 

[Aostia]

Is the artstyle and Mii inclusion really THAT big of a deal? Last time I checked NSMBW was one of the best Wii games and a great side-scrolling Mario which we hadn't seen on a home console in, what...... 20 years?

I welcome a sequel with open arms.

I agree but I hope also for some new elements to be added to the pack.
NSMB Wii was great in presenting the multiplayer feature into an established franchise.
If they'll add for example the multiplayer online, or an editor or other things like those, I'll welcome it too

 

[Exterminieren]

Like it was established before, it is simply because they have now understood that the casual audience (mainly) WILL buy up their games like there is no tomorrow if they follow the NSMBWii formula as was made evident by the sales numbers compared to the 3D marios...

So why SHOULD they? (and no, just because WE would like them to is not a good enough answer unfortunately)

Because Galaxy 1 & 2 have sold 17 million copies combined?

I recognise that NSMB is an absolute beast of sales power, but it's hardly like 3D Mario is some horrible flop that must never be touched again.