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Ok GAF lets battle it out. Which franchise is better F-Zero or Wipeout
- Thread starter nin1000
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ChronotriggerJM
Member
I think there's a weird aversion to certain physics handling models, not that it's bad of course, but definitely noticable. Wipeout is more simulator in the way it handles physics than Fzero is.
I've noticed people griping about "weight" in the monster hunter thread as well.
There's definitely an audience for instantaneous response time in games, but not every game should perform as such. People conflate latency with physics models too, which is entirely wrong as well.
I've noticed people griping about "weight" in the monster hunter thread as well.
There's definitely an audience for instantaneous response time in games, but not every game should perform as such. People conflate latency with physics models too, which is entirely wrong as well.
Momentum in games is something that I've noticed many people have an aversion to when compared with simpler "push left = X-5" type control systems. Look for example how frequently people today try to argue that the original Sonic games were never actually good. That's a game where every aspect of its design was built around managing the character's momentum, and a lot of people hate it for that reason.
ChronotriggerJM
Member
Definitely, it's probably a conversation for a different thread, but I hear the term "clunky" thrown around a lot. Momentum control is fun to me, physics handling is fun to me, inertia, gravity, etc etc. I don't think physics get nearly enough appreciation lol.
hydrophilic attack
Member
I mean, Sonic is bad for its trial-and-error style gameplay, has nothing really to do with managing momentum
You will find lots of people who don't like Sonic who likes the Mario games, and momentum is very important there too, so I don't quite get where you got this idea from
Grim Patron
Member
F zero is only good for that 1 track in Mario Kart 8. Even nintendo dont care about it anymore. And no Fast RMX is not even close.
Wipeout is great
Wipeout is great
The handling of Sonic as a character is common explicitly cited as a core reason for the games being bad.
Momentum I would argue isn't comparatively very important to Mario at all. Jump heights, angles and the like are all far more binary than in something like Sonic where things like the effects of undulation have pronounced effects on the trajectory of your jump arcs, or become insurmountable without the require velocity. You hold run in Mario, and about one second later you're at Mario's peak velocity, and stopping from that will always cover X amount of pixels. This isn't the case with Sonic where all sorts of actions will increase your momentum far past the character's default limit, and even getting to that default limit requires a notable buildup with a large range of intermediate velocities covered in between. This is why so many people struggle more with the first Sonic, because it lacks the spin dash, and so getting the character up to speed (which is frequently required to progress) is more difficult. The flipside to having the spin dash of course, is that the player needs to now handle the high speeds it instantly provides... which most don't and then complain about the game being trial and error because they just used a spin dash off a ledge of into spikes. People claiming Sonic is "trial and error" usually do so because they suck at handling momentum, and so kill themselves attempting to shortcut their way to higher speeds.
Momentum is clearly part of F-Zero also, turning left after making a hard right isn't the same as doing the same when driving straight.. but just as Mario places very little focus on momentum as a core component of its gameplay, F-Zero's use of momentum (and the requirement for the player to understand it) is marginal in comparison to something like WipEout.
Lionel Richie
Member
Yeah it's bullshit because the quote wasn't "Wipeout is more influential than F-Zero", which is debatable. The quote was "Wipeout is an influential game and F-Zero isn't", which is not possible considering Wipeout was influenced by F-Zero. You can't say that Prince of Persia wasn't influential because its designs are outdated today, it was an important foundation block for the genre. Just like F-Zero.
Nah, quote was that WipEout was "highly" influential and F-Zero wasn't. Now obviously where you put the line at "highly" is subjective (and I'd personally but the line well above either's reach), but when people are literally saying "why the hell are there no game trying to be F-Zero, and a fuckton trying to be WipEout?" then it's not very hard to argue that F-Zero hasn't been highly influential.
F-Zero was a launch title for the SNES, WipEout was a launch title for the PlayStation... now compare the future racing subgenre in the years following each.
pixelation
Member
I award you a gold medal for this post... PREACH. Also art/design wise Wipeout has always been much superior to F-Zero with it's futuristic boxy hot wheels cars running on a hot wheels set look.
I was strictly talking about influence, not quality. Wipeout is far more influential. Again look at the string of Wipeout clones there are today, then look at how many F-Zero clones there are, none.
Wipeout was probably somewhat influenced by f zero because it's Nintendo, but f zero is not the first AG racer, and Wipeout is much more influenced by Mario Kart.
You can intercept a missile or rocked (red or green shell) by dropping mines (banana peel).
InsertCookiesHere
Neo Member
F-Zero, easily. Which says more about how boring Wipeout is to me then it does about F-Zero which I'm pretty apathetic towards.
I just don't find Wipeout to be entertaining in the least.
I just don't find Wipeout to be entertaining in the least.
Huge Succeeded
Banned
and that's great because the game is designed well around those controls and perspective. There's nothing else like it.
Because why would it be?
Lionel Richie
Member
Fair enough, I guess I sort of misunderstood what you said. I still don't totally agree, I think that Wipeout is a mix of Mario Kart and F-Zero and I definitely see some influence of the latter in it. All things considered Wipeout is an evolution to the F-Zero concept, which indeed makes it way more influential, but maybe without F-Zero there wouldn't be Wipeout so I don't think it's that huge of a gap.
F-Zero wasn't the first futuristic racer game but it was the first really big one that kind of set some standards for the genre.
Dreams-Visions
Member
this man understood.
but as I prefer the inside-the-cockpit view, WipEout will always be better.
Arc Christelle
Member
lmao dafuq you mean "battle it out"? You know F-Zero is better.
foolishoptimist
Member
I've always been confused by the classification of F-Zero as an anti-gravity racer, and the endless comparisons to the WipEout series.
The F-Zero machines always behaved like futuristic rocket cars to me. They even have a "Grip" stat.
Then we get F-Zero fans complaining about "floaty controls" in an Anti-gravity racer.
Also, weapons & combat are quite significant
even if not the best
Wipeout.
Sterile.
Some of you need to admit you've never touched a Wipeout game in your lives.
It's true. In F-Zero the vehicles are virtually glued to the track, you can even slide around them. In Wipeout they behave more like true hover/flying machines.
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
More likely Wipeout's easier to understand.
I mean, how many threads have I see announcing the next game to be F Zero's spiritual successor?
Not one of the games associated with such announcements comes close. At best, we get a Wipeout clone, a joke of a slightly faster CC class in Mario Kart of all fucking things, or a collect the dots racer instead.
There's no insane track physics that can cause you to get sucked off the track if you're going too fast on the wrong side of a loop.
There's no multi race ranking ladder.
There's no rival system.
There's no significant up close interaction between racers.
At best, it's float down a narrow tube and try to hit that optimal racing line.
You know, because it's not that Wipeout's easier to replicate. It's just magically superior.
This is actually madness.
Nah, it's delicately nuanced parody. Quite brilliant, to be honest.
Arc Christelle
Member
Huge Succeeded
Banned
The fact that (some) aspects of F-Zero (GX's) design haven't been replicated to a T is not evidence at all that it's an innately more difficult design to replicate.
And the fact that Wipeout has had more influence within the genre has no bearing on whether or not it's a better franchise than F-Zero. I don't think anyone here was arguing that, actually.
You're going to have to make a way better case for this idea that Wipeout's wider influence is solely thanks to a more easily copied design.
Damn lol, definitely got me.
Trackmania goes at crazy fast speeds, it's faster than f-zero (though a lot of things are when you're not exploiting and snaking). It has speed boosts and curved, looping tracks... and even magstrips, which are in the latest one - TM2 Lagoon. It's really an excellent and fun racer, that I'd say has a lot of the same elements you'd expect from a futuristic racer. Though its vehicles and environment don't have futuristic looks, but it is a very nice looking game.
TBH there are a lot of fantastic arcade racers, with funner controls and faster speeds than F-Zero that I'd much rather play, even the burnout series.
Wipeout is its own magnificent thing. With its balancing act at high speeds it feels like a sim. Redout is more arcade and a little more star wars racer but still has good, fun physics. An excellent futuristic racer too. F-zero is old and not that great a racer. Even as arcade racers go.
It hasn't aged very well.
Putting f-zero together with wipeout makes extremely little sense in any comparison other than the setting they were going for, and only in a very broad sense.
It's like comparing Battlefield 3 to Mercenaries.
If F-Zero got a new entry, it'd be like COD4 vs Splatoon.
I think it's useful to explain it that way as I get the impression a lot don't play many other racers, other than Mario Kart.
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
Except for the guy I responded to I guess.
I don't really care which is the better franchise to be honest. I like them both.
I do prefer F Zero's mechanics however which seem to be completely dismissed in these comparisons in favor of "Well Wipeout looks cooler" or "it has more influence" Which is either subjective or a completely empty statement respectively.
Huge Succeeded
Banned
You mean this guy?
vv
^^
So where in this post does Jackstin imply that Wipeout is a magically better series as opposed to just a more influential one? Or that WipEout's wider influence stems from that it's better than F-Zero?
Am I missing something here?
Well that's cool, same here. That's got nothing to do with what I was saying, though. I was just challenging your argument re: WipEout's influence specifically. I get your beef with some of the conduct in this thread, but I think that rn, you're projecting quality comparisons into specific posts that don't have them.
I don't disagree, but applying that to this entire thread is pretty dismissive of much of the discussion taking place here, and also, the dismissive behavior you describe is not exclusive to WipEout fans in this thread. After all, this is a franchise comparison thread, in which several people have dismissed a franchise of 9 fairly unique and solid games, in favor of one F-Zero game that conveniently represents the entire franchise.
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
Pretty sure there was a N64 version as well which was also excellent if not pug ugly.
Huge Succeeded
Banned
That's true, and many other posters have stated they prefer F-Zero or think it's better because they consider F-Zero GX and F-Zero X both to be amazing games, or because they greatly appreciate specific defining aspects of the franchise. And I personally think that's fairer than overlooking WipEout's strong history in favor of one representative of the F-Zero series (X or GX), which a couple of posters have done, at least considering that most of the rest of the franchise is of arguable quality.
D.Lo
Member
The original F-Zero was incredible in its day too.
I've posted previously I don't think they're directly comparable, for multiple reasons. But if we are comparing the series, it's only fair to compare the games released since the Wipeout series itself came into existence. And there have only been two main entries - X and GX - in that time.
Yes Wipeout has been a solid consistent series with many more entries. But if none of them hit the high water marks of X or GX, well, 'slow and steady' doesn't make your rise to greatness. I'd say all Wipeout games from PSP onward are very playable right now, but I couldn't go back to the PS1 games, with the visible texture seams all over the tracks, jiggly textures, and low framerates. F-Zero X is from that era and while it has simpler graphics (often garish), it still plays and looks solid as a rock (polygon wise) and runs smooth as butter.
Still. Nintendo could shut this down right now by hiring as many of the AV guys who made GX as they can find, and making a new HD F-Zero NX. Heck they have the Mario Kart 8 60fps 1080p engine sitting there ready to go.
BomberMouse
Member
WipEout and it's not even close, the last vita game was so good.
PlayALLtheGames
Banned
I haven't played F-Zero for a looong time so I can't claim my comparison is particularly reliable but I will just say this:
Playing the original WipEout right after it came out, at the age of like 13, as a kid who had just moved to the U.S. from England and appreciated the music especially - that is one of my top 5 most memorable, game moments. Everything about it blew my mind: the futurism, the speed, the visuals, the music, the tracks. Fuck. So good!
Playing the original WipEout right after it came out, at the age of like 13, as a kid who had just moved to the U.S. from England and appreciated the music especially - that is one of my top 5 most memorable, game moments. Everything about it blew my mind: the futurism, the speed, the visuals, the music, the tracks. Fuck. So good!
Yoshimitsu126
Member
Only played GX but if Wipeout is a more of a racing sim then we should be comparing F-Zero to Mario Kart if we wanted a more legitimate comparison. F-Zero is pure high octane speed arcade racing and thats what makes it so fun.
foolishoptimist
Member
WipEout simulates the physics of an anti-gravity vehicle, whereas F-Zero, really doesn't even try. But that's really where the Sim-ness ends.
WipEout is a futuristic combat racer, and that combat aspect pits it more directly against Mario Kart than any other straight racer.
Yoshimitsu126
Member
Does drifiting require gear shifting and braking/speeding matter in Wipeout?
foolishoptimist
Member
Not 100% sure on your meaning there.
WipEout has left/right air brakes, which you will need(along with a good racing line) to get around corners at high speeds without colliding with the walls.
I will once a better Wipeout game comes out than F Zero GX or even X. So far that has not happened.
Randomizer
Member
Exactly. I just don't find Wipeout games exhilarating enough. F-Zero GX is the pinnacle of the genre and has yet to be topped.
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