Yes absolutely
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Pachter: PS5 to be a half step, release in 2019 with PS4 BC
- Thread starter bitbydeath
- Start date
Yes absolutely
StrongBlackVine
Banned
The tech in Scorpio isn't even that good. It was so underwhelming I decided I rather build a PC that cost 3 times as much or more. Shame both refreshes stuck with that shitty Jaguar.
Negotiator
Member
It depends.
What if devs realize that pushing the production values/graphics envelope is a non-sustainable business? What if VR takes off?
They may opt for 60 fps in that case.
If you ask me, I'd be happy with Uncharted 4 quality graphics at 4k60 becoming the norm on the PS5. I can't speak for the majority, but it's good enough for me.
ArkhamFantasy
Member
30 FPS games aren't going away.
Theonik
Member
Kinda, it's the design wattage for the power supply like I said. Real world system consumption will be lower than that. Generally speaking though Sony would have determined that requirement through profiling. There is no reason to put a 300w PSU in there if the machine can never draw that current. But, with cooling the design power will typically be lower than the peak draw of the system. That's because the system will quickly throttle if it gets too hot and it allows cutting costs considerably.
Of course an APU is cheaper for a variety of reasons. APUs can also be faster when the hardware is like for like. The thing though is that you can fit more hardware if you don't go with an APU. The size of the system depends on how good your design is at spreading heat. Vapour chambers aren't very exotic, they are pretty similar in cost to heat pipes and work on the same principle. There are caveats there of course. The benefit of something like the setup on the XBO X is that it helps move the heat to the heatsinc more evenly that improves its efficiency. Hot spots are a real problem in thermal design and can lower the efficiency of a design considerably! separate chips help here a bit by splitting the heat sources in two areas so instead of having to pull 90W in a small APU area you need to move 45W and 55W or whatever. The other point of course is that if the node allows you can get more flexibility that way to lower costs over time by moving to simpler cooling or an APU.
PS4 is already capable of playing PS1/2 games. Sony just doesn't want people to have that feature.
geordiemp
Member
I think they are. How many 30 FPS games run on a 4 Ghz I5 with enough TF behind it (which will be the case on 7nm) ?
The answer is none. How many 30 FS games will run on a Ryzen ? Probably none.
I think posters like you just make that up to somehow believe current gen will last another 5 years. It would be some clever programming to run at 30 next gen.
NO I dont agree
Maybe devs could slow down the i5 Class CPU's and put big pauses in so the game runs nice and slow lol
As always, when devs get access to new and fancy console hardware, no matter how powerful it is, many teams instantly decide to max out the potential they are given to work with.
It does not matter if PS5 gets Threadripper and 20TF of GPU power, many new games [that will continue to sell great] will still remain 30fps.
I've been wondering what the increase in IPC is from Jaguar to Zen myself. I mean clock for clock. The OG PS4 Jaguar was 1.6 GHz, XBone's was 1.75 GHz, PS4 Pro's is 2.1 GHz and Xbox One X's is 2.3 GHz.
We need to know what Zen's IPC is vs Jaguar at the same clocks. Yeah, RyZen is clocked much higher, but we need the most basic comparison first.
With Zen being ~52% more than Excavator, the leap from Jaguar to Zen must be quite massive, not even counting clock speed.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
See I don't think this is true but as I'm no expert I hope one comes in here and explains it. If the PS4 Pro does in limited situations pull close to 300W then my question is why have Microsoft equipped One X with a poultry 245W PSU? Surely a 6TF and more RAM console on the same node pulls more watts than PS4 Pro?
Edit: I just checked the specs for the PS4 Pro PSU and if my maths is right it can only provide 289W? So where does 310W come from?
I didn't expect you would
Not saying I want that, just I think we'll still see it. Just because the cpu may no longer be a major bottleneck doesn't matter -any devs will use the extra performance to do more at 30fps. You can get a lot more done in 32ms vs 16ms
Have to consider power conversion efficiency & tolerance for waste heat for the overall design (and cost).
geordiemp
Member
I didn't expect you would
Not saying I want that, just I think we'll still see it. Just because the cpu may no longer be a major bottleneck doesn't matter -any devs will use the extra performance to do more at 30fps. You can get a lot more done in 32ms vs 16ms
CPU is the major bottleneck....for consoles.
What more is there to do, I game at 2160c or therabouts now on 4.2 TF on 16 nm and I dont really see much difference between 1440 and 2160. Consumers wont notice 8 or 12 TF and that is not good for sales.
So, interestingly, what is there to push besides frame rates and load times ? Yeah, we could get more dense worlds, but if devs are given a porsche will they not be temped to let it go fast ? Maybe all games will have busy assassin creed type streets full of NPC's lol...
I am struggling to see what you would prioritise at say 12 TF to make a game run at 30 FPS. This gen its clear, Jaguar limits you.
Well even IPC at 52 % plus the clock increase, say 2 to 3 Ghz is enough already to bump everything to 60 FPS. I read an estimate of 1.7 with some fair logic behind it a while ago, god knows where but it was not a published article.
1.7 seems about right as Excavator runs hot but its still faster than Jag.
so you were expecting a 3x500=1500 dollars console. the would work, sure.
I think most console players on this forum would take that but it is likely developers will see the need to push graphics at the expense of frame rate. I also can't see VR being mainstream by the time ps5 comes around
Negotiator
Member
Why would they need a stronger CPU for that? Seems like a waste of resources.
TressFX is the way to go and it seems one of the limited cases where 2xFP16 (it should be a standard feature next-gen) can offer a nice performance boost.
Shin
Banned
How many games run at 2160c versus the amount that runs lower than that? Genuinely asking.
Even if 8TF is the minimum for native 4K that all is spent on just the resolution bump, not great.
Better trees, vegetation, NPC's, more NPC's, more/realistic destructive environments (dynamic?), the list goes on as to what creates immersion.
We are missing a handful of features that's available on PC's or are toned down as is that will impact performance.
There is two side of this story one side prefers price the other prefer performance/power.
Gemüsepizza
Member
While I would love to see 60 fps become standard, I fear the best we can hope for is an option to unlock fps for HDMI2.1 VRR. Because with the existence of PS4 Pro and Xbox One X, companies might feel pressured to use a 30 fps lock as standard with maximized graphics, in order to set the new games apart from the old gen. Though I would love to be wrong about this.
As was said before, that's just a strenght of the PSU. Actual power usage is of course lower, which enables PSU to run cooler and to work for many years without issues.
Same principle is present in PCs. PG gamers purchase for example 650W PSU even though their total power usage is <400W.
rokkerkory
Member
9TF with zen lite pls
autoduelist
Member
Who are these people viewing the Xbox One X as a new gen? If we're still buying the same exact games on the shelves, few [if any] will think that way. It's not until that brand new high profile game [GTA6, or whatever] no longer works on your machine that the average buyer sits up and takes notice. [Cross gen releases still count, because the buyer still needs to go past the shiny new game aisle to get to the 'old' gen display]. It doesn't matter to most that a game plays slightly better if it's the same disc.
Regarding your second bold, a year late has proven to be problematic in the past, as others have stated. I can't say I agree with your final thought at all either... I think the risk of buyer alienation is real for both brands.
That's not how frame rate works, though. If a dev decides they want to use an extra frame of processing power to
1) finer detail / motion effects [hair, grass in the wind, fire, water, etc]
2) increase texture quality
3) increase enemy count
4) improve explosions
5) improve AI processing
6) improve draw distance
7) increase level size
8) npc ai count [pedestrians wandering about]
9) enemy and object diversity
etc
then we might get 30fps.
You're acting like frame rate exists in a vacuum. If devs were willing to give up all the various benefits gained by going 30fps we'd have 60fps for a couple gens now. It's never that a machine isn't capable of doing 60fps, it's that a machine isn't capable of doing 60fps + other things, and that list of other things never ends.
It's easier to get to 60fps if you strip the detail out of a game [ie, running across a flat earth rather than a lush forest], but detail helps sell games too.
Both refreshes were designed to play the same games at higher resolutions. There's little point in paying for a faster CPU that's going to be woefully underutilized because the same game has to run on the original console.
Sure, it could allow games to run at higher frame rates presuming they were designed to accommodate 60fps animations, cut scenes, etc. The fact that this wasn't a priority should be a clear indication of just how important both manufacturers think it is to focus on frame rate over visuals.
I think you'll see more 60fps titles with Ryzen as it will mean devs have more options on where to utilise the power, but it's by no means a guarantee. I think PSVR's performance will have an impact on planing for PS5. If Sony can see that there is a potential growth market to be opened, tuning for performance + bells & whistles will be important.
I actually think MS were hanging on as long as possible for AMD to deliver a usable Ryzen. The amount of reengineering in the X would more than justify the investment in a new CPU, and it would have given MS a genuine jump on Sony beyond FauxK and Xbone users a bigger reason to upgrade.
I actually think MS were hanging on as long as possible for AMD to deliver a usable Ryzen. The amount of reengineering in the X would more than justify the investment in a new CPU, and it would have given MS a genuine jump on Sony beyond FauxK and Xbone users a bigger reason to upgrade.
Microsoft explicitly positioned the One X as a member of the Xbox One family designed to play the same games, just like the PS4 Pro relative to the PS4. At no point did they claim otherwise. The APU features were locked when it was first unveiled last year, so all inferences that Scorpio was ever going to be the start of a new generation were just wishful thinking. Abandoning Xbox One customers after such a short time in market would risk some significant customer backlash, so the strategy we see today is certainly the safer path.
Nah, the X we have is basically exactly what it was always supposed to be.
Wow, all that fancy design & engineering work for what amounts to the Pro+.
Well, yeah. A lot of good work went into the Pro, so it makes sense there would be a lot of good work to go beyond it. The X is a well made and designed machine.
Shin
Banned
It shows also, they seem to have done an excellent job at getting the absolute best performance out of what they have available.
I can't say the same for PS4 Pro but that's just me, I wonder if these guys just buy a specific part and can do whatever they want with it or if AMD is responsible (since R&D cost).
There is no real reason to feel that way from a HW standpoint.
Shin
Banned
Probably not, they also did what they thought was best with what they had last year and/or could get out of the box to hit that price point.
Design wise I hope there's a slim version of it down the road though that might be wishful thinking and a waste of money, it's too bulky as is ATM IMO.
RyZen, in its current configuration, is simply too large de be integrated in a soc anyway.
Souldestroyer Reborn
Banned
Firstly, Power != Current.
Power(P) correlates with Current(I) dependant on Voltage(V). P=IV
There are also numerous other equations for Power, which we won't go in to as it isn't really necessary for this subject.
Bear with me on the next bit as I'm going to go on a bit of a tangent to try and help explain the bigger picture.
As for the power supply, nothing is 1:1 transferable. There are losses due to various influences, heat primarily being the main one. We also have a thing called efficiency or Power Factor (PF) when talking about Power Generation.
Think of it like a beer with a nice frothy top.
The actual beer itself is our "Real Power" (W) our Watts that you see being used.
The frothy bit of the beer is a bit of a waste isn't it? Doesn't do much to get us drunk! This is the wasted power, or "Reactive Power" kilo-Volt-Amperes-reactive(kVAr)
The whole of the beer (the frothy top plus the liquid itself) is our "Apparent Power" kilo-Volt-Amperes (kVA)
Where I'm going with this is that nothing is able to make use of every bit of electricity we give it. Also, everything has different rates of efficiency (More/less beer, or more/less Froth)
This leads us to the conclusion that in order to drive more, the Xbox with less Power, while using stronger hardware, there will have been major gains in regards to efficency (how much is used rather than wasted) how much voltage is actually required, and how well the thermal losses are dealt with, cooling.
On top of which, to add further complexity, every PSU itself will have its own efficiency rating and operate at its peak performance at different loads.
Also, just for clarities sake, you should/would never run a PSU at its 100% load. Not only is it highly inefficient to do so, it would give off more heat and cause issues.
The engineering in X1X is necessary for what X1X delivers. There isnt anything special inside. They wanted 6TF and all of that increased power in the GPU - just like ps pro. The fancy vapour chamber cooling comes directly from two things : the desired size of the unit; and going for higher clock speed instead of a much larger APU.
They wouldnt have been to put ryzen in there even if it was technically available. It would take up too much die space and reduced GPU power.
Goalus
Member
Well, there is me for example.
This might be true, but when games stop working on Xbox One S due to Xbox Two being released, they will still work on Xbox One X, at least that is my expectation. To me this means that Xbox One X is half current-gen and half next-gen, which is essentially what MS has been touting with their generationless approach.
It would only be problematic if Xbox One X was indeed not next-gen. So from your point of view of course it is. It will be interesting to see in the coming years which concept Sony and MS decide to implement.
longdi
Banned
Idk about that. At the very first scorpio reveal, MS seems to want a xbox one.5. something that blurs the generational line.
amstradcpc
Member
It has sense for PS5 to be totally back compatible if they push PS4 base versions of games to 720p, PS4 PRO to 1080p/1440p and PS5 to 4K.In this way we also could get a graphical improvement but for that PS5 GPU should be near 16 tflops.
geordiemp
Member
Not really, its just Zen is too big for a console die at 16 nm with a decent sized GPU. Hence we need 7 nm.
Sony and MS for APU had no choice hardware wise, its that simple, they had to go graphics only and push clock as best they could as Ryzen is a big CPU.
I believe the 60 FPS developer desire is there (Naughty dog Uc4 for example, lots of articles), they just cant do it with Jaguar.
The "next gen is going to be all 60 fps games" is something I have been reading since the PSX/Saturn era.
It's not going to happen. A lot of devs will always cater to push the machine to it's max, and that means limiting the FPS to 30. PC comparisons are irrelevant because PC games are catered to be run on a lot of different settings and never the most powerful builds.
It's not going to happen. A lot of devs will always cater to push the machine to it's max, and that means limiting the FPS to 30. PC comparisons are irrelevant because PC games are catered to be run on a lot of different settings and never the most powerful builds.
geordiemp
Member
So, which is more likely :
1. All games have super AI and enemy density on Ps5 at 30 FPS, all jaguar consoles cant run them...at all or at 10 FPS
2, All games are normal AI and density, run at 60 FPS on Ps5, can still run on Ps4 pro / xb1X at 30
Pick one and reason why !
I pick 2, no way games will be so complex only I5 class CPU can run them at 30 FPS. Thats business suicide.
Maybe gen after next one or when ps5 > 60 million. Pushing to the max, devs do that now, they are stuck with 30 in many games because of Jaguar.
Option 1. PS4/Pro will not play PS5 games either way, so I don't see why this matters. Next -gen will have backwards compatibility, not forwards compatibility. There needs to be a strong incentive to upgrade to a new console, and that's usually new games that can't be played on an older system. Besides, Devs will always focus on things other framerate, in most cases. Frame rate doesn't sell games. Gorgeous graphics, and ambitious, innovative ideas do.
geordiemp
Member
So, you really believe with > 120 million Ps4 / xb1 developers will make games that cant run on them and cater to < 10 million Ps5 .
Nope, games will run on both, only people that could have incentive for console upgrading is the console makers, BUT the profit is in software and online services so.....
Sony wont care either way, ps4 or ps5, as long as gamers are spending in their eco system.
On a 21 inch TV in a kids bedroom, there is no benefit of more graphics, none. On a 65 inch 4K OLED with HDR, possibly, although 2160 C on my Pro is good enough already.......Horizon cant look much better on my TV on Ps4pro without going to 60 FPS.
A ryzen console will easily do game X from 30 to 60 FPS IMO.
Bitch Pudding
Member
I choose 3.: The first round of multi-platform games will almost look identical on PS5 vs. PS4 Pro, especially if compared using YouTube videos, but the PS5 edition will still not run on a PS4 Pro.
Next gen will be a tough sell, with regards to graphics. Last gen it was the same, although it took Sony 8 years to introduce their new console. People were still complaining about miniscule graphics improvements on the first PS4 multiplats. Thanks to PS4 Pro and XBOX One X, we'll see a lot more of those comments at the beginning. But seriously, Uncharted 4 was the very first current game where I thought "now this couldn't be done on a PS3, now matter how much they'd reduce resolution!". I suppose it will be up to 1st party games again to show actuall benefits of decent new hardware.
Well, if that was actually plausible, there would be no need for new generations in the first place...
Next gen will be a tough sell, with regards to graphics. Last gen it was the same, although it took Sony 8 years to introduce their new console. People were still complaining about miniscule graphics improvements on the first PS4 multiplats. Thanks to PS4 Pro and XBOX One X, we'll see a lot more of those comments at the beginning. But seriously, Uncharted 4 was the very first current game where I thought "now this couldn't be done on a PS3, now matter how much they'd reduce resolution!". I suppose it will be up to 1st party games again to show actuall benefits of decent new hardware.
Well, if that was actually plausible, there would be no need for new generations in the first place...
Shin
Banned
Probably the same game/disc of PS4 games that will run on PS5 with additional patch needed to take advantage of PS5 capabilities.
Until the install base is large enough to kill off PS4 development altogether then it will be games build solely for PS5.
Until then the transitional phase will continue for a year or 2 (whoever long is needed to justify developing only for PS5).
We need new info about this console :S
Until the install base is large enough to kill off PS4 development altogether then it will be games build solely for PS5.
Until then the transitional phase will continue for a year or 2 (whoever long is needed to justify developing only for PS5).
One cannot image how good/great something can/could look until they actually witness it, weird statements you're making today.
We need new info about this console :S
geordiemp
Member
If we are just talking graphics, then ps4pro on games like Horizon or UC4, there is no real reason to upgrade, yes I have an HDR 4K set. Unless i start using a gaming monitor, then there is no point, I dont pause games and put my nose to the screen.
For general public, past pro and X there is only frame rate, load times and VR / AR if games must also run on OG ps4 and pro.
Not really weird, my point is that had pro since day 1 on a 4K HDR set, most pro enabled games I cant tell if its 1440p, 1800c, 2160c, 2160p. Yes, I cant see on game X if it went from 1800c to 2160p on the same game, but I am the point where I dont care.
If a game has a high frame rate option and can squeeze 60 at 1080p, I always take that and its immediately noticeable.
I have already reached the point of diminished indistinguishable returns.
I only look for frame rate and no frame pacing on Pro patch reviews, I have got to that point. For next gen, thats the problem IMO.
Bitch Pudding
Member
Hm, I'm just not convinced that neither frame rates, load times nor - for now - high-end VR/AR are actually propositions which are suited for marketing a new console generation. Both XBOX One X and PS4 Pro are already playing the 4K card, so one has to ask if playing that one again (alone) will do the trick.
I believe that at the end of the day, it all comes down to exclusive new games that - even if they could run on last gen consoles with turned down graphics - won't be available on them (at least later on, of course almost all 3rd party games will be cross-platform the first 1-2 years).
geordiemp
Member
Oh I agree, I have 2 Ps4 pro and 2 4K tv's side by side, and if next gen is going after more graphics why would I upgrade ?
Witcher 3 at 60 FPS thanks to Ryzen, day 1.
Sony and MS consoles live on 3rd party mainly, the GTA's, COD's, FIFA's....1 st party is icing but not the main driver.
draliko
Member
You guys are really serious? Seems like you never witnessed a generation change... Will be the same as always, first parties will do exclusive for PS5 and third parties will do cross gen titles... As always... There will be BC but not FC, makes no sense...
When you play a game that runs on iOS 6 and 7 for example, it's not the game that is forward compatible, it's ios7 that's backwards compatible with a game programmed for and older os.
If you take advantage of ios7 characteristics you can't run the same game on ios6 for example.
And don't worry 90% of games will be 30fps, graphics sell, FPS not so much (and I say it as a PC gamer with gsync monitor...), Only a small percentage of gamers care for fps
When you play a game that runs on iOS 6 and 7 for example, it's not the game that is forward compatible, it's ios7 that's backwards compatible with a game programmed for and older os.
If you take advantage of ios7 characteristics you can't run the same game on ios6 for example.
And don't worry 90% of games will be 30fps, graphics sell, FPS not so much (and I say it as a PC gamer with gsync monitor...), Only a small percentage of gamers care for fps