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Penny Arcade reopens the "dickwolves" controversy

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Anthropic

Member
I get where you're coming from, but in Mike from PA's case it isn't just saying something dumb. He's done this over and over again, nearly always doubling down, seemingly incapable of being educated no matter how many people try.

I'm all for giving people another chance when they say or do something stupid, we've all been there, but eventually enough is enough. At this point the venom is totally justified.

To what end though? Destroying his business? Destroying a convention people love? What exactly are you seeking to accomplish?

Do people want to see Mike Krahulik hurt in some way? Why? What does that accomplish? How does that improve the world?

Mike is clearly a jerk. I'm fine with people continuing to call him out on that. It sounds like people want to go further though and find some way to hurt him. What does that accomplish?
 
I think this is why this tweet, while horrible, was so necessary for yourself and all the other "defenders of art and freedom"

JPQ45Dn.png

Are you being serious with that?
 

Jintor

Member
To what end though? Destroying his business? Destroying a convention people love? What exactly are you seeking to accomplish?

Do people want to see Mike Krahulik hurt in some way? Why? What does that accomplish? How does that improve the world?

Mike is clearly a jerk. I'm fine with people continuing to call him out on that. It sounds like people want to go further though and find some way to hurt him. What does that accomplish?

I just wish he'd learn.

This is the fourth or fifth time this fucking thing has flared up again and I see no indication that anything is ever going to change.
 

WonderPup

Member
I think this is why this tweet, while horrible, was so necessary for yourself and all the other "defenders of art and freedom"

JPQ45Dn.png

Demonstrating that people continue to blow things out of proportion? I can believe that. It's the Internet, and the Internet is full of idiots.
 

mollipen

Member
hey knuckleheads, Anthropic did and so can you

Re that trans* twitter-beeves around Gabe recently, I agree with you though. "Venom". The whole language around all this stuff is still such a mess. Phrases like "transphobic", "rape culture", etc are all so combative. Gabe can honestly not understand about gender/sex dichotomy without being afraid of or disgusted by trans* people. But if you don't know what that means and people start calling you bigot over a tweet it makes it real hard to want to learn, everything becomes about getting defensive.

It's so trite to say out loud but I wish the Internet was better at treating people like people. Shit's nuanced and subtle and everyone's hopefully still learning and encountering new things all the time. When people jump to calling Mike a monster it just makes everything messier. I personally think he's a guy with his heart in more-or-less the right place but his foot squarely in his mouth-place.

The problem, at least in terms of the whole trans ordeal, was that plenty of people tried to explain to Mike why what he said would be taken as offensive to people who are trans, and then after he apologized he went on to say things that he knew would be taken as offensive by people in the community who are trans.

That's where I have my issues with how he treats things sometimes. In the first outbreak of his comments on trans issues on Twitter, I reached out to him, he responded, and I tried to politely and calmly explain the side opposite from his comments. I invited him to our next panel about trans issues in gaming that we'd be holding at PAX Prime. I felt like he had come to a better understanding of why people were upset.

And then, a short time later, he started up again.

My opinion is that you don't have to agree with somebody or fully understand their position (because it's tough if you aren't in their shoes), but you should at least try to respect them as human beings as much as you can. I don't at all think Mike is a bad person, but it's frustrating when he openly makes comments that continually seem to be purposefully ignorant to the position of others. There are PLENTY of panels at PAX that talk about the importance of diversity in the gaming community, and he could easily got to any of them and listen to the heartfelt stories and experiences of those who have been affected by ignorance, bigotry, or discrimination. There's no lack of people ready, willing, and able to talk to him about those sides of life he might not understand.

If he was just a part of a web comic and was the way he was, it wouldn't affect people as much. When he's part of the group that has organized three yearly public events that are supposed to be inclusive to all in the gaming community, saying the kinds of things that he says at times can really do damage to that idea.

Maybe I'm oversensitive about the entire situation, but it does affect me on an emotional level when I'm working hard to contribute to panels at PAX about the importance of inclusivity and then Mike says what he says. As I said earlier, I don't know that I want to boycott the show, because I've personally witnesses the effect our panels have had on some people. But, yeah, it's hard to do what you do and then feel like one of the two people highest on the food chain is doing things to actively work against that effort.
 

aeolist

Banned
To what end though? Destroying his business? Destroying a convention people love? What exactly are you seeking to accomplish?

Do people want to see Mike Krahulik hurt in some way? Why? What does that accomplish? How does that improve the world?

Mike is clearly a jerk. I'm fine with people continuing to call him out on that. It sounds like people want to go further though and find some way to hurt him. What does that accomplish?

i want people to stop providing him with money and legitimacy, because when they do it sends the message that his behavior is totally acceptable

it's the same thing as people buying shadow complex and putting money in orson scott card's pocket, or going to dragoncon (pre-ouster) and making a convicted pedophile richer
 

DaBuddaDa

Member
i want people to stop providing him with money and legitimacy, because when they do it sends the message that his behavior is totally acceptable

it's the same thing as people buying shadow complex and putting money in orson scott card's pocket, or going to dragoncon (pre-ouster) and making a convicted pedophile richer

Comparing Mike to Ed Kramer or Orson Scott Card is a tad ridiculous IMO, but I get the greater point.
 

Toxi

Banned
The fact that PAX nearly banned Jessica Nighiri for wearing a revealing outfit makes the whole thing even funnier.

It's amazing how people this successful can act like man-children in public. Get off twitter if the backlash hurts you so much, you dumb fucks.
 

JoeMartin

Member
Comic was fine. It used <something horrible> to convey an amusing point regarding writing/quest design in MMOs. Point wouldn't have been made without the satirizing of <something horrible>.

Merching the rape part of it - not okay. Rather than taking people's misunderstanding on the chin they retorted in the least magnanimous way possible.
 
Your 3) is exactly the same as his 2), just worded a little more MRA style. His 2), for reference:


Absolute nonsense. There's a clear distinction between the two.

In point 2, the intention of "you" is to offend. Presumably because "you" are outlandishly evil and relish in causing anguish and suffering. That not impossible, but it is hard to believe and would never be my first assumption about anyone I didn't know (well enough to draw that assumption in the first place from prior knowledge).

In point 3, "you" don't pay attention to the feelings of the offended at all. This is not necessarily because you don't care about the victims of rape (which is possible but wouldn't be my go to assumption about a stranger). It could be because you believe avoiding jokes that MIGHT offend SOME victims of rape is not worth a conciliatory change of behavior. Because doing so sends a message: "if you have any negative feelings about what I've written, complain and I'll change my behavior to accommodate you."

Or there could be other motivations. Once again, assuming the worst motivation is ridiculous.

It's called being an inconsiderate shithead, and a bully.

What you're doing is called having your cake and eating it too: pretending to have a rational, adult conversation, then pivoting and name-calling. Even if you believe you're in the right, I'm sure you can do better than that.
 
Demonstrating that people continue to blow things out of proportion? I can believe that. It's the Internet, and the Internet is full of idiots.

Or people plainly displaying that they have no idea how to tell a joke. More proof that the ones spewing such rabid stupidity, are humorless.
 

Anthropic

Member
i want people to stop providing him with money and legitimacy, because when they do it sends the message that his behavior is totally acceptable

it's the same thing as people buying shadow complex and putting money in orson scott card's pocket, or going to dragoncon (pre-ouster) and making a convicted pedophile richer

I am uncomfortable assigning that level meaning to the purchase of goods and services because that assigns guilt to the purchaser.

There's nothing wrong with buying a copy of Ender's Game or Rosemary's Baby. Or buying a Ford car. Or buying Bayer aspirin. Or a copy of the Little Red Book.

It's an exchange of money. Nothing more. It doesn't provide legitimacy to anything else than the fact that you bought something. There's no message.
 
Why bother with that when I can just make some rape jokes? Apparently that's the same thing as threatening someone's family.



vs



See? Same thing.

I understand that you're a paragon of logic and reason and hyperbole can't exist lest a point be made outside of this needless semantic bickering but at least pick a good rape joke.
 

nbthedude

Member
My problem was never with the original joke. Sure it was in bad taste and understandably offensive to some, but that is fine. Comedy sometimes offends. If it offends you dont support it or let the creator know it. You should.

My problem instead was always Mike's response of rubbing it in people's faces again and again. First with ridiculing them. Then making the shirt. Then declaring he would proudly wear the shirt at PAX. Now with this taking back/regretting their mealymouthed compromise. It is immature and far more insensitive than the original joke. Having a difference of opinion in terms of what is acceptable comedy is one think. Being petty and insulting to people whose opinion differ from yours is another.

Had he just simply said something akin to "I realize some people don't find it funny, but I do. My comedy isnt for everybody" I would have no problem. I dont need him to recant on his comedic sensibilities. I just wish he wouldnt be so insulting and petty towards people who found it offensive.
 
I think this is why this tweet, while horrible, was so necessary for yourself and all the other "defenders of art and freedom"

JPQ45Dn.png

... Oh god, that is the most horrible and desingenious post of this thread. That is saying something...

And I'm not saying this because I actually want to defend Gabe (Pfffft) but, woah... come on!
 
I understand that you're a paragon of logic and reason and hyperbole can't exist lest a point be made outside of this needless semantic bickering but at least pick a good rape joke.

You started it, so I'll defer to you picking a good home invasion and murder joke first.
 

nbthedude

Member
The problem, at least in terms of the whole trans ordeal, was that plenty of people tried to explain to Mike why what he said would be taken as offensive to people who are trans, and then after he apologized he went on to say things that he knew would be taken as offensive by people in the community who are trans.

That's where I have my issues with how he treats things sometimes. In the first outbreak of his comments on trans issues on Twitter, I reached out to him, he responded, and I tried to politely and calmly explain the side opposite from his comments. I invited him to our next panel about trans issues in gaming that we'd be holding at PAX Prime. I felt like he had come to a better understanding of why people were upset.

And then, a short time later, he started up again.

My opinion is that you don't have to agree with somebody or fully understand their position (because it's tough if you aren't in their shoes), but you should at least try to respect them as human beings as much as you can. I don't at all think Mike is a bad person, but it's frustrating when he openly makes comments that continually seem to be purposefully ignorant to the position of others. There are PLENTY of panels at PAX that talk about the importance of diversity in the gaming community, and he could easily got to any of them and listen to the heartfelt stories and experiences of those who have been affected by ignorance, bigotry, or discrimination. There's no lack of people ready, willing, and able to talk to him about those sides of life he might not understand.

If he was just a part of a web comic and was the way he was, it wouldn't affect people as much. When he's part of the group that has organized three yearly public events that are supposed to be inclusive to all in the gaming community, saying the kinds of things that he says at times can really do damage to that idea.

Maybe I'm oversensitive about the entire situation, but it does affect me on an emotional level when I'm working hard to contribute to panels at PAX about the importance of inclusivity and then Mike says what he says. As I said earlier, I don't know that I want to boycott the show, because I've personally witnesses the effect our panels have had on some people. But, yeah, it's hard to do what you do and then feel like one of the two people highest on the food chain is doing things to actively work against that effort.


Great post. Totally agree.
 
who did gabe threaten with rape?

I wasn't making the point that some jokes are not acceptable or that all actions carry moral or societal implications outside of intent. No. I was literally stating there is no difference between bad rape jokes and actual death threats. Don't I feel silly.
 

Steaks

Member
I wasn't making the point that some jokes are not acceptable or that all actions carry moral or societal implications outside of intent. No. I was literally stating there is no difference between bad rape jokes and actual death threats. Don't I feel silly.

People in these sorts of arguments have a lot of trouble with nuance to be fair.

Also: It's a joke! Just like on top gear!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7CnMQ4L9Pc

Everyone here should watch this video. It's a good commentary on offensive jokes.
 
It's pretty simple.

He's tired of trying to placate a crowd of people who cannot be satisfied. He apologized, discontinued the shirts, and kept quiet about it. However, over the past three years, if he so much as farts in the wrong direction he gets berated and harassed. Just before this years PAX he was inundated with more angry tweets because he said something that people immediately assumed was "Transphobic",

A ridiculous accusation.

He probably realized that there was no reason to cancel the shirts because it has become clear that the angry lot that keeps harassing him cannot be satisfied. He tries to make up for something and they keep moving the goal posts.
 
K

kittens

Unconfirmed Member
Look, Penny Arcade has a problem. On the one hand, they want the freedom to write absolutely anything they want in their comics without being criticized for it and anyone who doesn't like the comic can fuck right off. On the other, they want PAX to be a welcoming and inclusive place especially for sub-groups that have previously not been well-represented in the gaming community such as women, hence the banning of booth babes, and they don't want anyone to feel threatened there or made to feel uncomfortable.

There isn't inherently wrong with either of these goals. On a general level, I think most people would support both. And if they were capable of separating PA the comic from PAX the convention entirely, this probably wouldn't have been as big a deal. But unfortunately, there is overlap between them, and Mike chose to respond to a controversy in one of them with his mindset from the other (probably because he doesn't really have any other way of thinking). The comic received criticism on a handful of feminist blogs but no more. That was it. But rather than attempt to engage them honestly or even just ignore them (everyone saying feminists should simply not read Penny Arcade if they're offended by it is displaying a staggering lack of self-awareness), he chose to antagonize and mock them and his fanbase took up the cause. If you're going to respond the way Mike did to some bloggers criticizing your work, you don't get to tell anyone else to grow a thicker skin.

But even that wasn't enough, he had to make the shirt and then sell it, and then encourage people to wear it to PAX and brag about him wearing his own. Let's be clear about what this signified: It was a blatant "fuck you" to all of the women and actual sexual assault victims who had expressed feelings of discomfort about rape-related humor. No, it was not a banner of free speech or brave and noble weapon to wield against the scourge of censorship; if you have been told explicitly and in no uncertain terms by a group of people that "This joke makes me uncomfortable and here is why" and you proceed to make a shirt embodying exactly that joke then there are only two possible conclusions: 1) You have the short-term memory of a goldfish, or 2) You are deliberately intending to make those people uncomfortable. You have found their weak point and you intend to exploit it. You cannot claim ignorance or naivete as an excuse; you have been informed of how these people feel and you are using that knowledge to your advantage.

And hey, PAX is their convention. They have the right to do that. They have the right to flagrantly disregard the comments of actual women who expressed concern about how it would make them feel to go to the convention surrounded by people literally wearing rape joke T-shirts. They have the right to say that the convention will be just like the comic, a free-for-all for rape-related humor and anyone who doesn't like it can fuck right off, just like they should with the comic. They absolutely have every right to run PAX with the same mindset that they write their comic.

But then they don't get to claim that PAX is inclusive and everyone is welcome. They don't get to say that they want to make sure women are not made to feel uncomfortable the same way they often are at other conventions. They don't get to say that they care about PAX being better than other conventions about this. The dirty little secret that they never realized is that free speech and making people feel welcome are both perfectly noble ideals that are in conflict with one another and if you choose to side with the former in every possible circumstance, even if it means antagonizing rape victims, even if it means alienating women, even if it means going against your own stated goals, then you're not a martyr for free speech. You're just an asshole.
Well fucking put.
 

KiTA

Member
My word, I hope those shirts go back up for sale. They should have never pulled them -- never feed the trolls, it only encourages them.

Also: Dickwolf plushie? I could see it.
 

Nekofrog

Banned
It's pretty simple.

He's tired of trying to placate a crowd of people who cannot be satisfied. He apologized, discontinued the shirts, and kept quiet about it. However, over the past three years, if he so much as farts in the wrong direction he gets berated and harassed. Just before this years PAX he was inundated with more angry tweets because he said something that people immediately assumed was "Transphobic",

A ridiculous accusation.

Oh come on, you are totally glossing over what really happened. There were legitimately concerning comments made on his behalf and he was called out on them.
 

KiTA

Member
I think we have a different definition of what "troll" means.

Possibly. Although I do honestly believe that there is nothing, literally nothing, that G&T could have done after posting that comic to mollify certain people, and yes, they should have just ignored the controversy instead of showing weakness - as Khoo said at PAX this year.

"I believe that all women have a vagina" is not a legitimately concerning comment.

It is kinda a dick -- dickwolvish? -- thing to say, however. I dunno if I'd go so far as to call it transphobic, but it's damned close -- and certainly isn't in the least bit respectful.
 

pizza dog

Banned
He's tired of trying to placate a crowd of people who cannot be satisfied. He apologized not with any sincerity, discontinued the shirts, and kept quiet about itfucking hardly: a follow-up comic and several news posts, drawing a dick wolf ay a panel?. However, over the past three years, if he so much as farts in the wrong direction he gets berated and harassed. Just before this years PAX he was inundated with more angry tweets because he said something that people immediately assumed was "Transphobic",

A ridiculous accusation. he in fact said things that were transphobic and made many trans people feel marginalized, so those aren't "accusations", but truths

He probably realized that there was no reason to cancel the shirts because it has become clear that the angry lot that keeps harassing him cannot be satisfied. He tries to make up for something and they keep moving the goal posts. forget it

ridiculous. comments/facts inline

Can we try at least to be sincere in these threads? So much disingenuous nonsense.
 
Watching the roast of James Franco last night, it was nothing but gay/Jew/rape jokes.

I still can't be offended by this. The best thing you can do to comedy that offends you is to not buy it. Don't link to it, don't click on their site, tell your friends to do the same. But I don't want to suddenly see self-censorship from a personal, editorialized comedy source.
 
Want to stop misogyny in the gaming community. Getting rid of Krahulik and whoever else keeps being the dickcheeses that make these dumbass decisions and comments at PA would be a great start.
Using gendered epithets in your anti-misogyny rant and saying we should "get rid" of someone who has been an otherwise great benefit to the game industry with Child's Play and PAX?

Without Mike Krahulik there is no PA.
 
Watching the roast of James Franco last night, it was nothing but gay/Jew/rape jokes.

I still can't be offended by this. The best thing you can do to comedy that offends you is to not buy it. Don't link to it, don't click on their site, tell your friends to do the same. But I don't want to suddenly see self-censorship from a personal, editorialized comedy source.
but it's the videogame industry that has the misogyny problem, not comedy central
 

Toxi

Banned
It's pretty simple.

He's tired of trying to placate a crowd of people who cannot be satisfied. He apologized, discontinued the shirts, and kept quiet about it. However, over the past three years, if he so much as farts in the wrong direction he gets berated and harassed. Just before this years PAX he was inundated with more angry tweets because he said something that people immediately assumed was "Transphobic",
No wonder Mike's says such stupid shit, he's got people like you as his own personal pity chamber.

He should have stopped while he was ahead.
 

stupei

Member
Eternally baffled by people who equate empathy and compassion with "weakness," but I guess these appear to largely be the same people eager to paint rape victims as trolls and bullies.

So.
 
I believe KiTA's definition of "troll" here is someone exaggerating outrage for pageviews and to raise their profile when they may not be completely genuine with these sentiments. Just a guess.

I don't see how that definition applies to every critic of PA throughout this whole ordeal.
 

FoneBone

Member
I also don't know how one could possibly prove it about any given critic without being able to read minds.

Exactly. Is there someone, somewhere who's exaggerated their opinion for attention? Sure, probably. But I haven't seen anything resembling a coherent argument for how that constitutes a significant portion of those offended - beyond "that doesn't offend me personally, therefore those shrill feminists must be faking their sentiments."
Please show me where I said every critic of PA throughout this whole ordeal was trolling?
Framing the issue as being about "trolling" implies that most of them are.
 
Please show me where I said every critic of PA throughout this whole ordeal was trolling?

Two things. First, I offered that in response to another poster. Second, would the position be then that it's best to ignore all criticism because some of it is being offered by people that are trolling?
 

truly101

I got grudge sucked!
Just reading the OP. I can see why back in 2010 that the PA guys may have been taken aback by the response to the whole raped by dickwolves joke. I hadn't read the comic in question and just thought it was a tasteless but ultimately nonsensical punchline.
Fair enough, I've told my share of tastless jokes and weird offensive punchlines and ramblings among friends. If I was stupid enough to put such an awful joke out there for public consumption, I might be surprised at the backlash since my intent was never as bad as the criticism makes it sound, but ultimately I'm going to retract and apologize because the comment is going off the rails.

3 years older and wiser, I'm sure as hell not bringing it up again, even in jest.
 

Cagey

Banned
There was a post earlier in the thread, referencing This Is The End, that posed a question that didn't get nearly enough attention: rape as fodder for comedy is widespread, and it's only in a few instances when the joke is blunt rather than implied where outrage occurs.

For example, take a scene from Super Troopers. Ursula walks up behind the guy highway cop with a voice-changing device, making her sound like a deep-voiced huge dude. She takes a rifle, lifts up the guy's shirt, and says "bend your knees and touch your toes". The entire joke is based on the threat of the guy getting raped. Granted, the word "rape" is not used. So what?

One of the more popular episodes of It's Always Sunny, The Gang Buys a Boat, has an entire subplot about Dennis's "implications" with women.

Is "rape" a magic word, in this instance? Implied threat of forced sex is funny, but labeling it accurately as rape is like sucking the air out of the room?
 

Sai-kun

Banned
That Jessica Nigri thing seems legit.

Just because her costume is based on a videogame character does not excuse it from being tasteless or showing too much skin. A lot of cons have similar rules (like comicon) because they want to be family friends and don't want regular average joes to think that their conferences are excuses to have women or teenage girls (or guys!) with ultra sleazy costumes parading around. There's also the issue that sadly a lot of people can't handle themselves and will act like total creeps around women in revealing costumes.

My only experience with 'cons' is the Montreal Comic Con, and everytime I went there, I saw quite a few people who were acting like total creeps to the point of even considering flagging security about them.

I remember one creepy guy who kept bugging this girl who cosplayed as Scarlett from Mortal Kombat and was obviously making her feel mega uncomfortable and would keep stealth taking pics of her legs and crotch area and there was this guy who jumped over a table while running behind those two girls who were cosplaying as some characters while taking pics of the behind of their legs and behind.

thats why I think those rules about nudity/mega revealing outfits are important -- to keep away creepos like those guys.

The woman I went with last year is a pro photographer and she was a bit turned off about comicon because of those kind of people and kept being verbal about 'grown men pushing each other to take pictures of underages girls in costumes' the entire day.

Why not just kick out the creeps instead of the people wearing outfits? Obviously a line with skimpy dressing has to be drawn somewhere (for any gender), but we shouldn't be punishing skimpy dressers, we should be punishing creeps who make these folks just trying to have fun feel unsafe.
 
http://business.financialpost.com/2...-to-fix-its-krahulik-problem/?__lsa=8008-8b18

Sorry if this has been posted, but penny-arcade need to realize how big they have become.

They reach a vast number of people through the comic, charity & PAX. They have a globe reach that does good, then this happens and they don't seem so cleaver & compassionate.

For people who said they have been bulled, empathy should come naturally to them. But they act so defensively that they end up being the bully
 
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