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[SomTervo]

B^U

Fuck, only just discovered what this means.

Mind blown.

 

[Oersted]

This is very on point. Concluding that because PA is doing something that a so called "hate" group would agree with, makes them akin to a hate group is really a form of ad hominem. We should be addressing ideals and facts and not taking shots at character to prove a point.

People say they pander to the hate group. Read, for crying out loud.

And even beyond that, I am sure gamegate has some fine people. You can't judge a group by its extreme members. It is becoming very intolerant around here for some people. This is potentially very bad. You don't want to live in a space where only like minded individuals are capable of speaking their minds.

I'm pretty sure you can find decent people, lets call them Biedermeiers, in any hate group.

Make no mistake, I think #GG are the instigators. I've written essays on #GG and I consider it very problematic. I compared them to a terrorist attack, right? But like a terrorist attack, the rest of society becomes drawn into this back and forth battle that is just lamentable. America and 9/11 etc.

It's just sad we've been divided, and that us on the non-#GG side have been drawn into a conflict that doesn't seem to be coming to any kind of end.



And isn't it tragic that we're embattled and constantly fighting hints of evidence of solidarity with this movement?

How could you not agree with "this is sad"? Gaming was not like this until the last 2 years.

True that.

 

[Yoshi]

You can pander to a hate group more than just bullying. Follow Play Asia for examples.

Yes you can and yes they are pandering to gamergaters. That does not make the position in itself wrong and them not neccessarily bad people.

If Koie Tecmo would care so much about the public opinion, they would not have greenlighted a game profitting of Otakus.

Since in Japan, people are more relaxed about the topic and don't go around rallying against such games, there is no image problem with the game in Japan. Also, KT is a Japanese company first and foremost, so their development decision was centered around Japan. The western branch then decided that in the west, the game would be problematic.

And again, you made no point whatsoever why it would be not worth it. Especially in the videogame industry, as immature as it is, controversy is a selling point. As a matter of fact, Play Asia plays into that with its fabricated backlash.

Being in the center of a negative campaign can have averse effects to your bottom line, see boycotters here as a small scale example. They wouldn't want to lose, for instance, Warriors-buyers over a small niché game that only offers very limited revenue.

I don't know about others, but I have zero tolerance for hate movements. I don't see why I am to blame for this.

It is fine to have zero tolerance for hate movements. Going against people who harrass others is fine and I wouldn't want any doxxer, swatter or similar person in any discussion on NeoGAF. However, conflating people who share opinions (not actions) with people who harrass, is unfair. My position for instance, is one that garners a lot of hateful comments (and I invite you to research me as it is common, I have absolutely no association with gamergate, other than following the brilliant Richard Dawkins on Twitter, who was added by batshit silencing bot people as an offender), even though I abhore anyone who harrasses other people and personally think the most (almost only) important things in all discussions are rationality and fairness.

And it's not just a tiny isolated group. There are gaffers who are in agreement with them, but they mostly remain silent because of fear of being lumped in with the crazy toxic parts of it. I know that some even monitor the posts and comment on it outside of this forum with the occasional passive-aggressive post in other threads.

This is actually something I deem as problematic. Positions on the matter are being mixed with actions of other persons who share some views. This is not fair, this is downright dispicable instead. If people are in fear about stating their position, there is something wrong with the climate.

I also want to play games, but I can't because people will harass or terrorize me if I state my opinion about something. Colleagues and I are afraid to speak up online or mention these things with our real names attached. Gamergate has made this shit so toxic that it's directly dangerous to even address some of the political aspects of games. There's been many times where I have had second thoughts about saying something in a public forum because of the potential to be targeted by someone.

And of course, in turn, this is completely inacceptable. If people harrass you just for stating your opinion (or do it in any capacity for any reason at all) this is a shame and I certainly condemn this.

 

[SomTervo]

Except they are both hate groups. One "hates" women, the other secretly "hates" men and is oppressed by any personal demons/problems.

Care to elaborate on that?

 

[BocoDragon]

One angry team is a hate group, the other angry team is pissed at hate groups. One angry team wants to exclude people from the hobby, the other angry team wants to include.

There are "teams" and "factions" or whatever? Sure, if you want to see it this way, but the equivalency is false. And it's not neutral. One group is screaming to women "get out of here!" and the other is screaming "stop being insane! They have just as much a right to this as you do!".

Saying both groups of angry people are the same makes me angry. The only reason this anger is "recent" is because then women and gays "knew their place" that videogame is a male heteronormative hobby and dared not to intrude or learned to "grow a thick skin", i.e., accept abuse to not rock the boat.

The bullies and the people angry because they are tired of being bullied are not the same type of angry.

Who ever said either side was "the same"?

The fact that there are teams at all waging a battle is sad. The fact that there is a battle -in video games- is sad.

It's human nature or it's inevitable maybe? But it wasn't a part of online gaming culture for the first 20 years of the Internet. Forgive me for saying "I don't like this new landscape one bit". And I don't like how games like DOA have become pawns on either side.

 

[FyreWulff]

And I mean...

They know what they're doing and who they're playing to. Whoever's running that account has spent some considerable time on 4chan.

damn, i've never seen a retailer stan so hard for a game. Just how many shipping containers of this game did they buy?

 

[Corronchilejano]

People really don't get what this was about yet?

Imagine someone selling ropes by pandering to the KKK.

Except they are both hate groups. One "hates" women, the other secretly "hates" men and is oppressed by any personal demons/problems.

You literally don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Sblargh]

This is very on point. Concluding that because PA is doing something that a so called "hate" group would agree with, makes them akin to a hate group is really a form of ad hominem. We should be addressing ideals and facts and not taking shots at character to prove a point.

And even beyond that, I am sure gamegate has some fine people. You can't judge a group by its extreme members. It is becoming very intolerant around here for some people. This is potentially very bad. You don't want to live in a space where only like minded individuals are capable of speaking their minds.

Oh please, go into any thread about these topics and you'll see there is plenty of debate. I am sure that there are some fine people among those who disagree with Anita or any other feminist on the internet.
I don't know what to say about being "fine people" and still counting yourself among people who uses organized harassment to punish those with alternate views.

I don't want to live in a space where mysoginy, racism and such is common place because that is exactly how a space where only like minded (and bodied) individuals are capable of speaking their minds looks like. (the absurd and unreal notion that, for example, 4chan is a "free speech" zone just because nobody gets banned for example).

NeoGAF is basically the only place in the internet where you can have a debate with, yes, multiple different views, without being drowned in a shouting match of stupid. Being intolerant torwards certain people goes a long way to keep it this way, I think.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

This is very on point. Concluding that because PA is doing something that a so called "hate" group would agree with, makes them akin to a hate group is really a form of ad hominem. We should be addressing ideals and facts and not taking shots at character to prove a point.

And even beyond that, I am sure gamegate has some fine people. You can't judge a group by its extreme members. It is becoming very intolerant around here for some people. This is potentially very bad. You don't want to live in a space where only like minded individuals are capable of speaking their minds. This is not a good environment for real discussion where people with opposing viewpoints can hash it out. You really just get people agreeing with each other. Demonizing GG shouldn't be so readily accepted.

Come on son

Gamergate is devoted to harassing people over video games. Nothing fine about that and there's no merit in pretending otherwise. You want actually educated and critically thinking people to entertain things like that in the interest of some nebulous concept of fairness? Hell, most of them don't even have their own opinions, just drop YouTube rants that they were entertained by.

As far as the person running P-A's twitter is concerned, who knows what they really believe. All we do know is that they found easy consumer targets and are running with it. There are several posts in this thread where people have stated that they'll buy from P-A specifically because of these tweets.

 

[SomTervo]

Does he try to prove he's not violent by making a violent threat? Is that the joke?

There is no joke.

It was sincere.

 

[Oersted]

Yes you can and yes they are pandering to gamergaters. That does not make the position in itself wrong and them not neccessarily bad people.

What position are you talking about?

Since in Japan, people are more relaxed about the topic and don't go around rallying against such games, there is no image problem with the game in Japan. Also, KT is a Japanese company first and foremost, so their development decision was centered around Japan. The western branch then decided that in the west, the game would be problematic.

Otakus are a shunned part of japanese society and are more and more isolated. The recent laws express that.

Being in the center of a negative campaign can have averse effects to your bottom line, see boycotters here as a small scale example. They wouldn't want to lose, for instance, Warriors-buyers over a small niché game that only offers very limited revenue.

You continously ignore that controversy is a selling point. This fabricated backlash is a perfect example.

 

[BocoDragon]

True that.

Thanks for understanding. I'm obviously just venting about the fact that this hobby got so serious, even though I know who's more in the right.

Probably signing off now

 

[hodgy100]

Make no mistake, I think #GG are the instigators. I've written essays on #GG and I consider it very problematic. I compared them to a terrorist attack, right? But like a terrorist attack, the rest of society becomes drawn into this back and forth battle that is just lamentable. America and 9/11 etc.

It's just sad we've been divided, and that us on the non-#GG side have been drawn into a conflict that doesn't seem to be coming to any kind of end.



And isn't it tragic that we're embattled and constantly fighting hints of evidence of solidarity with this movement?

How could you not agree with "this is sad"? Gaming was not like this until the last 2 years.

its sad that it's all so "violent" now. But I dont think its sad things are like this now, before people would just suffer in silence, women wouldn't play games because that "isn't their place" and they aren't "true gamerz". Instead now we have open public conversations about how half the world's population is being excluded or at least influenced not to play games. Now we can actually attempt to change this behaviour

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

People say they pander to the hate group. Read, for crying out loud.

So what does that change with what I said? Did you actually bother reading what I said or did you read it and just attempt to pedantically modify what I said in what appears to be some angry outburst. Pander? Do something they agree with? These phrases appear to be interchangeable.

So again, if you want to discuss something, rather than spout some angry drive by post, please elaborate. This isn't the first time you've done this.

I'm pretty sure you can find decent people, lets call them Biedermeiers, in any hate group.

I don't know what you mean by calling them Bierdermeiers. I realize you have some heavy preconceived notions about some people in gamegate, but that does't mean all or even many people who identify with the movement are that way.

But towards my point, which seems to be something you dislike actually addressing, the danger is that people with differing opinions can easily be dissuaded from discussion. This is definitely not a good thing.

 

[Sblargh]

Thanks for understanding. I'm obviously just venting about the fact that this hobby got so serious, even though I know who's more in the right.

Probably signing off now

I understand what you are saying now. I kind of hijacked your post to talk about a subject it was annoying me in general.

But cultural analysys of stuff exist since stuff exist; videogames can't escape from it nor, I think, should it stop you from enjoying them. I'm so anal about this stuff that if I would get sad over everything that have anything controversial in them, I would lock myself in a cave and dedicate myself to meditation, fighting against the factions inside my own head.

 

[Mman235]

Who ever said either side was "the same"?

The fact that there are teams at all waging a battle is sad. The fact that there is a battle -in video games- is sad.

It's human nature or it's inevitable maybe? But it wasn't a part of online gaming culture for the first 20 years of the Internet. Forgive me for saying "I don't like this new landscape one bit". And I don't like how games like DOA have become pawns on either side.

The people behind GG have always been there ruining people's lives in the background and pushing women and minorities out of games, GG is just when they organised into something, which actually opens the way for good to happen in the long run as they've finally decided to draw themselves out into the open and make their existence clear, which means people are finally becoming more willing to do something about them rather than denying their presence or saying they're a vocal minority (despite them dominating almost every discussion on non-moderated sites whenever anything vaguely related to social issues comes up).

 

[BocoDragon]

its sad that it's all so "violent" now. But I dont think its sad things are like this now, before people would just suffer in silence, women wouldn't play games because that "isn't their place" and they aren't "true gamerz". Instead now we have open public conversations about how half the world's population is being excluded or at least influenced not to play games. Now we can actually attempt to change this behaviour

I can see that it's a silver lining that topics of feminism in gaming have become "deadly serious" enough to have more real conversations about...

But I didn't want it to be like this. It shouldn't take violent strife in the industry to have this discussion. I thought Anita and co were fuelling the discussion, and it was fine. Gradual change to add gender-neutral or female-focused content... Great!

But I worry that this #GG incident has had the effect of demonizing the male-focused content that I do admittedly love. The fact that DOA has become associated with a toxic enemy does worry me.

I just want a plurality of content that appeals to everyone. Not censor this, demonize this... Make all kinds of things for all audiences. The admittedly male gaze DOA should continue to exist beside gender-neutral and female-focused content.

 

[Forkball]

Play-Asia is the Chik Fil A of gaming.

 

[Oersted]

I don't know what you mean by calling them Bierdermeiers. I realize you have some heavy preconceived notions about some people in gamegate, but that does't mean all or even many people who identify with the movement are that way.

But towards my point, which seems to be something you dislike actually addressing, the danger is that people with differing opinions can easily be dissuaded from discussion. This is definitely not a good thing.

It is a obvious reference.

Gamergate started over a lie about a indie developer, which resulted in extreme harassment to this very day. This is the birthplace of the movement and this is what Gamergate does to this day. If you join Gamergate despite of that you should reconsider your position and voice your opinion (which one? We keep talking about these theoretic good guys but where are they?) elsewhere.

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

Oh please, go into any thread about these topics and you'll see there is plenty of debate. I am sure that there are some fine people among those who disagree with Anita or any other feminist on the internet.
I don't know what to say about being "fine people" and still counting yourself among people who uses organized harassment to punish those with alternate views.

I don't want to live in a space where mysoginy, racism and such is common place because that is exactly how a space where only like minded (and bodied) individuals are capable of speaking their minds looks like. (the absurd and unreal notion that, for example, 4chan is a "free speech" zone just because nobody gets banned for example).

NeoGAF is basically the only place in the internet where you can have a debate with, yes, multiple different views, without being drowned in a shouting match of stupid. Being intolerant torwards certain people goes a long way to keep it this way, I think.

I don't equate free speech to unregulated speech. Unregulated speech is not what I am condoning. In fact, quite the opposite. The ideals of free speech I support are one of ideas, and less of acts. Just to clarify, an instance of acting intolerant via speech is different from the ideal of supporting intolerance via speech. To me these are not mere semantics and are important distinctions. I don't want to be in a place that actively allows misogynistic acts and racist acts either.

What I am condemning is essentially an echo chamber, where only like minded people are discussing things. Shut out opposition and that is what you get. I am not saying anyone should be capable of saying anything. But they should be able to represent their ideals without fear of repercussion. I personally go out of my way to learn of opposing view points. And one thing I hate seeing is people condemn ideals without any attempt to explain other than something like "oh they're a hate movement, so its okay" or "Well, this to me is inherently evil on its face, so questioning that makes you evil."

I think NeoGAF is generally a great place for discussion, generally speaking. But sometimes it seems like multiple people shout out (almost literally shout) against opposing view points rather than discussing them. But on the whole, I wouldn't be here myself if I felt like there was no room to discuss opposing view points.

 

[Myggen]

I can see that it's a silver lining that topics of feminism in gaming have become "deadly serious" enough to have more real conversations about...

But I didn't want it to be like this. It shouldn't take violent strife in the industry to have this discussion. I thought Anita and co were fuelling the discussion, and it was fine. Gradual change to add gender-neutral or female-focused content... Great!

But I worry that this #GG incident has had the effect of demonizing the male-focused content that I do admittedly love. The fact that DOA has become associated with a toxic enemy does worry me.

I just want a plurality of content that appeals to everyone. Not censor this, demonize this... Make all kinds of things for all audiences. The admittedly male gaze DOA should continue to exist beside gender-neutral and female-focused content.

You won't have any problem getting male gaze games in the future, no one is taking those games away from you. People weren't trying to take away DOAX3 either.

 

[Oersted]

I don't equate free speech to unregulated speech. Unregulated speech is not what I am condoning. In fact, quite the opposite. The ideals of free speech I support are one of ideas, and less of acts. Just to clarify, an instance of acting intolerant via speech is different from the ideal of supporting intolerance via speech. To me these are not mere semantics and are important distinctions. I don't want to be in a place that actively allows misogynistic acts and racist acts either.

What I am condemning is essentially an echo chamber, where only like minded people are discussing things. Shut out opposition and that is what you get. I am not saying anyone should be capable of saying anything. But they should be able to represent their ideals without fear of repercussion. I personally go out of my way to learn of opposing view points. And one thing I hate seeing is people condemn ideals without any attempt to explain other than something like "oh they're a hate movement, so its okay" or "Well, this to me is inherently evil on its face, so questioning that makes you evil."

I think NeoGAF is generally a great place for discussion, generally speaking. But sometimes it seems like multiple people shout out opposing view points rather than discussing them. But on the whole, I wouldn't be here myself if I felt like there was no room to discuss opposing view points.

Gamergate makes people afraid of voicing their opinion. You can voice your opinion here just fine.

 

[Lime]

This is actually something I deem as problematic. Positions on the matter are being mixed with actions of other persons who share some views. This is not fair, this is downright dispicable instead. If people are in fear about stating their position, there is something wrong with the climate.

We see this in other areas as well. When some people agree with the racist policies of national political parties, but are afraid to be labelled racist, so they don't actually state their views and instead hide it. This is similar - if people came out and said that they actually agreed that games aren't for women who are put off by the excessive straight-male titillation in their mainstream games, then they would also be called out for being exclusionary. I personally don't know how to deal with this, because sometimes a spade needs to be called a spade (see France's and Switzerland's ban of burqas as an example or the growing racism in Scandinavia and other European countries).

I can see that it's a silver lining that topics of feminism in gaming have become "deadly serious" enough to have more real conversations about...

But I didn't want it to be like this. It shouldn't take violent strife in the industry to have this discussion. I thought Anita and co were fuelling the discussion, and it was fine. Gradual change to add gender-neutral or female-focused content... Great!

But I worry that this #GG incident has had the effect of demonizing the male-focused content that I do admittedly love. The fact that DOA has become associated with a toxic enemy does worry me.

I just want a plurality of content that appeals to everyone. Not censor this, demonize this... Make all kinds of things for all audiences. The admittedly male gaze DOA should continue to exist beside gender-neutral and female-focused content.

I understand where your worry is coming from, but most adults should be able to distinguish between game and person. I think most people who do feminist critique are able to distinguish between a game and the person enjoying said game. This is stated over and over again in Anita's videos for example. And the fact that GG and it ilk are co-opting DOAX3 to be about them should piss off the non-misogynistic people who just want to play DOAX3 for the innocent fun it is.

And finally, remember that no one is taking away the games or demonizing anyone. I think this article states really well what the whole representation issue is about.

 

[BocoDragon]

You won't have any problem getting male gaze games in the future, no one is taking those games away from you. People weren't trying to take away DOAX3 either.

I agree. If it's not coming here it's just because they don't think it's profitable.

I just don't want this kind of game to be encouraged/discouraged by association in some dumb online gamer war.

If it's totally impossible that this online dicussion has any effect on reality and I know that for sure... No problem. But I dunno. Maybe it's best to say something in defense of it now, just in case.

 

[hodgy100]

I can see that it's a silver lining that topics of feminism in gaming have become "deadly serious" enough to have more real conversations about...

But I didn't want it to be like this. It shouldn't take violent strife in the industry to have this discussion. I thought Anita and co were fuelling the discussion, and it was fine. Gradual change to add gender-neutral or female-focused content... Great!

But I worry that this #GG incident has had the effect of demonizing the male-focused content that I do admittedly love. The fact that DOA has become associated with a toxic enemy does worry me.

I just want a plurality of content that appeals to everyone. Not censor this, demonize this... Make all kinds of things for all audiences. The admittedly male gaze DOA should continue to exist beside gender-neutral and female-focused content.

I agree that games like DOAX have a right to exist, people are merely critiquing them. and critique does not equal censorship and doesn't necessarily mean someone is demonising the game. DOA is not associated with GG, GG just want it to be a martyr for their agenda. Enjoy your booty beach ball breh!

 

[chaobreaker]

I agree. If it's not coming here it's just because they don't think it's profitable.

I just don't want this kind of game to be encouraged/discouraged by association in some dumb online gamer war.

If it's totally impossible that this online dicussion has any effect on reality and I know that for sure... No problem. But I dunno. Maybe it's best to say something in defense of it now, just in case.

The only people who politicized DOAX3 are Play-Asia and the Gators who ate their crap up.

 

[BocoDragon]

I understand where your worry is coming from, but most adults should be able to distinguish between game and person. I think most people who do feminist critique are able to distinguish between a game and the person enjoying said game. This is stated over and over again in Anita's videos for example. And the fact that GG and it ilk are co-opting DOAX3 to be about them should piss off the non-misogynistic people who just want to play DOAX3 for the innocent fun it is.

And finally, remember that no one is taking away the games or demonizing anyone. I think this article states really well what the whole representation issue is about.

That's exactly the truth. I'm pissed that DOA has been brought into this horrible situation (horrible on the part of #GG make no mistake)

I understand the intent of the representation issue and that's a great article. But at the same time, I feel us enthusiasts of traditional male-focused content have to outright say it: we still want our content to exist at the same time we want your inclusive and female-focused content to blossom. You can assume "oh of course, we're for everyone", but I'm a designer. I've been through this.. Good stuff gets excluded as a result of imperfect mission statements.

I know non-asserted elements will be jettisoned, and so I'm saying it: the ideal world includes content that gender-neutral audiences, male audiences only, and female audiences only, will love.

 

[Myggen]

The only people who politicized DOAX3 are Play-Asia and the Gators who ate their crap up.

True.

 

[BocoDragon]

The only people who politicized DOAX3 are Play-Asia and the Gators who ate their crap up.

True.

And yet we all have to surf on the waves they've made....

 

[system11]

I agree that games like DOAX have a right to exist, people are merely critiquing them. and critique does not equal censorship and doesn't necessarily mean someone is demonising the game. DOA is not associated with GG, GG just want it to be a martyr for their agenda. Enjoy your booty beach ball breh!

Possible, but I don't think P-A care what GG people may or may not want. They simply know that DOA fans are tired of media sites with an agenda and a thirst for clicks, dogpiling on the series for costume DLC and describing them as 'problematic', and they're exploiting that by trolling it for sales.

As a fan of the series (and as such I know several others), we've been highly entertained by it. The trigger warnings one they've just posted is separately delicious, I'm tired of that term even being a thing people use. I think they should give it a rest now though, mission accomplished, anyone who was going to be swayed either way for a sale will already have made their mind up. It was funny for a bit, if it continues it'll be as tired as the messages they've been poking fun at.

 

[Krabboss]

Again with this? They're simply trolling some people they disagree with the values and message of. Rejecting group A does not imply support of group B.

I hope you don't work in politics or law enforcement.

It makes literally zero difference whether they're genuine or trolling. They're not the people doing the dirty work, they were just the catalyst and they continue to fuel the fire.

I don't really know how you could possibly come to the conclusion that they're not in line with GG despite making the very best effort to look like they are, though. I mean, I'm sure they're not posting on KiA or 8chan but that doesn't mean they don't have the same set of ideals as GG.

I hope you don't work as a community manager for an online retailer.

 

[Sblargh]

I don't equate free speech to unregulated speech. Unregulated speech is not what I am condoning. In fact, quite the opposite. The ideals of free speech I support are one of ideas, and less of acts. Just to clarify, an instance of acting intolerant via speech is different from the ideal of supporting intolerance via speech. To me these are not mere semantics and are important distinctions. I don't want to be in a place that actively allows misogynistic acts and racist acts either.

What I am condemning is essentially an echo chamber, where only like minded people are discussing things. Shut out opposition and that is what you get. I am not saying anyone should be capable of saying anything. But they should be able to represent their ideals without fear of repercussion. I personally go out of my way to learn of opposing view points. And one thing I hate seeing is people condemn ideals without any attempt to explain other than something like "oh they're a hate movement, so its okay" or "Well, this to me is inherently evil on its face, so questioning that makes you evil."

I think NeoGAF is generally a great place for discussion, generally speaking. But sometimes it seems like multiple people shout out (almost literally shout) against opposing view points rather than discussing them. But on the whole, I wouldn't be here myself if I felt like there was no room to discuss opposing view points.

People will think you're evil on the internet. People will think you're dumb or a bigot or whatever. People will question your beliefs and will do so in dumb ways. It sucks, I get that.

But "oh, they're a hate movement" is not trying to ostracize those who think that feminist point of views are wrong or "ethics in journalism", it is a fact. GG is a hate movement. The way they talk and act is the way hate movements talk and act. The way they organize, who they organize against and what they do once they organize all line up with the way hate groups operate on the internet age. You might agree with them on some point or other, fine, I'm sure I agree with someone on GG on something, whatever, but "oh, hey're a hate movement" is not dismissal just to avoid discussion; it's dismissal because there's nothing neutral in treating an extremist bunch of people as "fine people" who are just "expressing opinions".

You can disagree with GAF and be called all kinds of bullshit, not only on this subject, but on all kinds of things. Whatever. But when you say something to the effect "we should not demonize GG", it's not the same as supporting this or that view; it is siding with a hate group. It is not a preconceived notion, it is the tag people use to organize themselves when they want to threat other people.

 

[Ferr986]

And I mean...

They know what they're doing and who they're playing to. Whoever's running that account has spent some considerable time on 4chan.

So this is their definition of ethics in journalism?

 

[Sblargh]

So this is their definition of ethics in journalism?

They're just asking for a fair review in exchange for a free copy! That's harmless! It's not like they are using the evil mystical powers of vaginas or anything!

 

[Palculator]

It's not like they are using the evil mystical powers of vaginas or anything!

 

[Krabboss]

Possible, but I don't think P-A care what GG people may or may not want. They simply know that DOA fans are tired of media sites with an agenda and a thirst for clicks, dogpiling on the series for costume DLC and describing them as 'problematic', and they're exploiting that by trolling it for sales.

As a fan of the series (and as such I know several others), we've been highly entertained by it. The trigger warnings one they've just posted is separately delicious, I'm tired of that term even being a thing people use. I think they should give it a rest now though, mission accomplished, anyone who was going to be swayed either way for a sale will already have made their mind up. It was funny for a bit, if it continues it'll be as tired as the messages they've been poking fun at.

I'm afraid you'll have to cop whatever criticism the series gets on the chin. It's not high art. It's made to appeal to the male penis. You don't have to dislike the game, but suggesting that the series doesn't have problematic depictions of women is being a little obtuse. Obviously the series has just been wank fodder since its inception, but the legal-loli character crosses a pretty big line. Putting somebody who looks underaged in a game that is by everybody's admission designed to engorge a man's appendage is a bit of a problem. But still, there was no concerted effort to get the game banned or altered.

If you're tired of trigger warnings you probably don't understand or care to understand why they're important. It's a little bit telling that you'd bemoan them, actually.

 

[mckmas8808]

Play-Asia is the Chik Fil A of gaming.

BASICALLY!

 

[SomTervo]

Since in Japan, people are more relaxed about the topic and don't go around rallying against such games, there is no image problem with the game in Japan. Also, KT is a Japanese company first and foremost, so their development decision was centered around Japan. The western branch then decided that in the west, the game would be problematic.

Ah, this is bile. "People" over there aren't more "relaxed" about it. It's a minority culture in Japan and Japan is still a very conservative place.

Japan is a place where birth rates have dropped to near-nothing because of a cultural rift between men and women, who don't understand each other or engage with one another sexually. Actual sex is becoming culturally non-existent. Schools are shutting down, prisons are full of old people, there are fewer marriages and births every year.

There are widespread cultural issues there surrounding male and female relations and perceptions.

 

[Corronchilejano]

Possible, but I don't think P-A care what GG people may or may not want. They simply know that DOA fans are tired of media sites with an agenda and a thirst for clicks, dogpiling on the series for costume DLC and describing them as 'problematic', and they're exploiting that by trolling it for sales.

"Tired of the thirst for clicks of media sites you aren't forced to read pointing out the obvious? Come and click on our site. We're thirsty too and are actually expecting money from your end."

As a fan of the series (and as such I know several others), we've been highly entertained by it. The trigger warnings one they've just posted is separately delicious, I'm tired of that term even being a thing people use. I think they should give it a rest now though, mission accomplished, anyone who was going to be swayed either way for a sale will already have made their mind up. It was funny for a bit, if it continues it'll be as tired as the messages they've been poking fun at.

You're tired of something that does not affect you? Of two words?

 

[SomTervo]

The trigger warnings one they've just posted is separately delicious, I'm tired of that term even being a thing people use.

?

It's not for you. If you're not triggered by said topic, and somebody puts a trigger warning on something, then you can just ignore it. It doesn't affect you.

What the hell. Any discussion like this is always full of people who don't understand the important terminology.

 

[Myggen]

If anyone's interested, this was discussed on today's Giant Beastcast. Starts about 55 minutes in.

 

[MrBadger]

I never really heard the term "trigger warning" used excessively until it was picked up and ironically used by the Reddit TumblrInAction crowd.

 

[Corronchilejano]

?

It's not for you. If you're not triggered by said topic, and somebody puts a trigger warning on something, then you can just ignore it. It doesn't affect you.

What the hell. Any discussion like this is always full of people who don't understand the important terminology.

Worse, people actively angered by small conveniences for others. I wonder if some people get angry at access ramps for wheelchairs.

 

[BocoDragon]

Ah, this is bile. "People" over there aren't more "relaxed" about it. It's a minority culture in Japan and Japan is still a very conservative place.

Japan is a place where birth rates have dropped to near-nothing because of a cultural rift between men and women, who don't understand each other or engage with one another sexually. Actual sex is becoming culturally non-existent. Schools are shutting down, prisons are full of old people, there are fewer marriages and births every year.

There are widespread cultural issues there surrounding male and female relations and perceptions.

This is wild-eyed and beyond reality.

Japan gets a lot of shit about their sexual and dating culture due to their birthrate.

Meanwhile if they had immigration, no one would even notice their birthrate, because it's comparable to most developed nations. Rich, educated people aren't the baby-machines necessary for many counties' economic growth. That's why most developed nations allow the import of family-oriented (read: baby producing) ethnic groups.

There are issues about male and female relations in Japan... No doubt. It is a sexist society (many more where that came from), But I feel like this association with "they don't engage with each other sexually" is a meme derived from their birthrate issue which is poorly understood.

The "Japanese don't fuck each other because they're shy and hikikkomori and they have 2D girls" is such a wrong and soft-brained first year college essay that i hope anyone reading this knows better. It is like Orientalism: a misinformed fantasy,

 

[system11]

If you're tired of trigger warnings you probably don't understand or care to understand why they're important. It's a little bit telling that you'd bemoan them, actually.

You can't put a disclaimer on every little tiny thing because someone, somewhere, might be upset by it, and that's where we've been heading. Actually this is nothing new and has existed outside of gaming for years - except it didn't need a stupid twee label. My first "are you serious?" moment was a film with 'contains scenes of mild peril' as an actual warning. We were fine where we were with the big obvious warnings:

"Contains scenes depicting rape" - an example of a valid warning.

I don't think anybody has a problem with those. Here's the problem:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/05/trigger-warnings-can-be-counterproductive

And I think that's far enough off-topic for me.

 

[SomTervo]

This is wild-eyed and beyond reality.

Japan gets a lot of shit about their sexual and dating culture due to their birthrate.

Meanwhile if they had immigration, no one would even notice their birthrate, because it's comparable to most developed nations. Rich, educated people aren't the baby-machines necessary for many counties' economic growth. That's why most developed nations allow the import of family-oriented (read: baby producing) ethnic groups.

There are issues about male and female relations in Japan... No doubt. It is a sexist society (many more where that came from), But I feel like this association with "they don't engage with each other sexually" is a meme derived from their birthrate issue which is poorly understood.

The "Japanese don't fuck each other because they're shy and hikikkomori and they have 2D girls" is such a wrong and soft-brained first year college essay that i hope anyone reading this knows better. It is like Orientalism: a misinformed fantasy,

I never said that.

I watched a couple of documentaries and read a few sociological articles which said it was a bit problem due to various aspects of their culture. And unlike other 1st world countries, even ones with tight immigration policy, Japan has more schools closing than anywhere else in the world and one of the worst birth rates.

If you're saying it's due to immigration - that's very interesting and I'd like to hear more about it. I'm open to other narratives on this, that's just the last compelling argument I heard. I was mainly arguing with the poster's 'Japan are sexually open' comment, which I only ever hear from, frankly, weeabou's.

Worse, people actively angered by small conveniences for others. I wonder if some people get angry at access ramps for wheelchairs.

It's insane.

 

[Oersted]

You can't put a disclaimer on every little tiny thing because someone, somewhere, might be upset by it, and that's where we've been heading.

I think noone expects that here.

Actually this is nothing new and has existed outside of gaming for years - except it didn't need a stupid twee label. My first "are you serious?" moment was a film with 'contains scenes of mild peril' as an actual warning. We were fine where we were with the big obvious warnings:

"Contains scenes depicting rape" - an example of a valid warning.

I don't think anybody has a problem with those. Here's the problem:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/05/trigger-warnings-can-be-counterproductive

And I think that's far enough off-topic for me.

If someone goes to far with triggerwarnings( a very mildly offensive thing), you are free to point it out, just like her. On principal, there is nothing wrong with triggerwarnings.

 

[Raggie]

American McGee clearly has no clue of what's going on, and that's not really surprising considering the original PA tweet. It doesn't specifically say that there has actually been any uproar about the game, but that's how people are going to read it it when they don't bother finding out the details. They've given off the impression that there's a group of 'SJWs' taking away their games, playing to the exact fears of GG.

It's not technically a lie, but it's misdirection.

You don't think refusing to give them money is hurting them financially and announcing it multiple times on a forum is making a point?

Maybe in such a small way that it doesn't make any noticeable difference to their bottom line. That's not why I'm doing it. I'm doing it because I don't want my money to be used supporting this BS.

 

[Haunted]

the fuck

 

[Slayven]

I am dying now, lowbrow appealing to GG is now a valid marketing strategy.