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PoliGAF 2017 |OT5| The Man In the High Chair

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V

Valhelm

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Voting for Democrats to keep the right out of power is good and necessary, but please don't pretend that this is a viable means of overthrowing a centuries-old racial order.

There are meaningful ways to oppose this hierarchy on top of voting. Many activists and organizers who don't vote have done much more to fight white supremacy than your average Democrat! Suggesting that a vote for Hillary Clinton is all it takes spits on their legacy and keeps us trapped in the quicksand of legislative incrementalism.
 
J

jtb

Banned
Valhelm said:
Voting for Democrats to keep the right out of power is good and necessary, but please don't pretend that this is a viable means of overthrowing a centuries-old racial order.

There are meaningful ways to oppose this hierarchy on top of voting. Many activists and organizers who don't vote have done much more to fight white supremacy than your average Democrat!
Click to expand...

Literally nobody is arguing otherwise.

Valhelm said:
Suggesting that a vote for Hillary Clinton is all it takes spits on their legacy and keeps us trapped in the quicksand of legislative incrementalism.
Click to expand...

And another straw man!
 
R

Ryuuroden

Member
The millenial generation ended when smart phones came out. Anyone who can't remember a time where you could not be connected to the internet 24/7 anywhere is part of the new generation.
 
V

Valhelm

contribute something
jtb said:
Literally nobody is arguing otherwise.
Click to expand...

Randolph Freelander just said that young black people who didn't vote for Hillary are white supremacists. That's exactly the kind of out-of-touch moralizing that stops us from accomplishing any serious and permanent change.
 
T

tbm24

Member
Ryuuroden said:
The millenial generation ended when smart phones came out. Anyone who can't remember a time where you could not be connected to the internet 24/7 anywhere is part of the new generation.
Click to expand...
I agree. My daughter will never experience the joy of having to do a school report and firing up encarta 95(and 98 if your cousin had it like mine) then lose time playing mind maze.
 
I

Ignatz Mouse

Banned
So in that "liberals are responsible for the 'alt-left' term thread, somebody was arguing that Bernie Sanders was too far right for the real leftists.

I guess that's true, but at that point you're just the fringe. We aren't electing anyone left of him anywhere big in the neat future.
 
B

Basileus777

Member
jtb said:
Literally nobody is arguing otherwise.
Click to expand...

He just quoted someone calling black millennials white supremacists. That's the kind of sentiment that is just absurd. This awful equivalency argument, a non-vote is a vote for Trump so a non-vote equals support for white supremacy. Yeah, no. Maybe bring more nuance to the conversation.
 
J

jtb

Banned
Valhelm said:
Randolph Freelander just said that young black people who didn't vote for Hillary are white supremacists. That's exactly the kind of out-of-touch moralizing that stops us from accomplishing any serious and permanent change.
Click to expand...

Basileus777 said:
He just quoted someone calling black millennials white supremacists.
Click to expand...

Fair enough.

Voting is an act of exercising political power. Activism is an act of exercising political power. Surely we can all agree on this and move on to discussing more interesting and less 'moralizing' topics.

In particular, Valhelm since you see the Tea Party as a model for the 2018 Democrats - how do you create a version of that coalition that isn't completely dysfunctional? Or is the kind of hostage-taking we've seen over the past decade a feature of the would-be new Democratic party, not a bug?
 
V

Valhelm

contribute something
I think the terrorism in Charlottesville and Trump's "alt left" comment has made some people realize that the narrative of violent black activists is ridiculous
 
B

Box of Kittens

Banned
Ignatz Mouse said:
So in that "liberals are responsible for the 'alt-left' term thread, somebody was arguing that Bernie Sanders was too far right for the real leftists.

I guess that's true, but at that point you're just the fringe. We aren't electing anyone left of him anywhere big in the neat future.
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I mean, Bernie Sanders is not a leftist. And, yes, the problem leftists have is that they're a small minority, which makes it difficult to gain power in a democracy.
 
T

tbm24

Member
Ignatz Mouse said:
So in that "liberals are responsible for the 'alt-left' term thread, somebody was arguing that Bernie Sanders was too far right for the real leftists.

I guess that's true, but at that point you're just the fringe. We aren't electing anyone left of him anywhere big in the neat future.
Click to expand...
I think the term leftist is pretty useless at this point. You have no idea what it actually means given the wide spectrum that it'll cover. It makes sense given what makes up the right is a few key things and those are all driven by insecurity, fear, and hate. I think it's amusing people are concerned about a term like Alt-Left when really that lost all weight the minute Trump used it, outside the right.
 
A

AntraxSuicide

Banned
whyamihere said:
great numbers for Bannon
Click to expand...

I think Rasta was the one who said this, but BLM is going to be an instant litmus test for any Democrat running nationally or in a highly diverse area. Those numbers are incredible for them, and should be held up as a sign that running from them is a bad move outside of some specific races (that is, the norm better be saying Black Lives Matter instead of the exception).
 
S

Spoiled Milk

Banned
Box of Kittens said:
I mean, Bernie Sanders is not a leftist.
Click to expand...
What does leftist mean, then? Is this some definition that's only functionally useful on a video game forum where 3 posters are proper socialists? Also, whenever I hear the word leftist used in conservative political discourse it refers equally to liberal values.
 
A

Abinash117

Member
jtb said:
The BLM number is great. The others just tell me that people have always been very good at lying about their racism.
Click to expand...

Shouldn't the word be bad? The numbers show that white supremacists and nationals, and the alt-right are heavy disliked. It can be intercepted that they are still seen has racists.

Racists are only good at convincing themselves that they aren't I would assume.
 
R

RastaMentality

Banned
AntraxSuicide said:
I think Rasta was the one who said this, but BLM is going to be an instant litmus test for any Democrat running nationally or in a highly diverse area. Those numbers are incredible for them, and should be held up as a sign that running from them is a bad move outside of some specific races (that is, the norm better be saying Black Lives Matter instead of the exception).
Click to expand...
They better show up to every politician running in major cities next year, forcing them to engage. Same with the 2020 candidates.
 
T

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Box of Kittens said:
I mean, Bernie Sanders is not a leftist. And, yes, the problem leftists have is that they're a small minority, which makes it difficult to gain power in a democracy.
Click to expand...

a lot of political arguments are happening right now between leftists who recognize that they are a very small minority and those who seemingly...do not
 
R

RastaMentality

Banned
jtb said:
The BLM number is great. The others just tell me that people have always been very good at lying about their racism.
Click to expand...
I honestly think the only thing that's really changed since the 60s is that white people are now afraid to associate themselves (out loud) with the KKK and white supremacy. 30-40% of the country definitely holds some of their views though.

This is why I've been able to simultaneously go into so many white hard-core republican families' homes and be greeted with open arms while they spew vicious anti-BLM garbage on facebook.
 
P

pigeon

Banned
Spoiled Milk said:
What does leftist mean, then? Is this some definition that's only functionally useful on a video game forum where 3 posters are proper socialists? Also, whenever I hear the word leftist used in conservative political discourse it refers equally to liberal values.
Click to expand...

Leftist means "us"

Centrist means "those guys"

Edit in before Crab complains about this
 
C

CygnusXS

will gain confidence one day
Spoiled Milk said:
What does leftist mean, then? Is this some definition that's only functionally useful on a video game forum where 3 posters are proper socialists? Also, whenever I hear the word leftist used in conservative political discourse it refers equally to liberal values.
Click to expand...
You have to parse a definition based on the speaker. They're highly contested terms (in the general public dialectic).
 
A

Aaron Strife

Banned
The narrative surrounding #blm up until this point (at least among white people I've talked to about it) was kind of the same as MLK's comment about moderate whites, "well I don't disagree with them but I disagree with how they go about it" etc

Now that we're seeing actual fucking Nazis out in the streets I can imagine a great deal of people thinking "oh maybe they had a point." Plus it offers a really easy contrast where the "worst" #blm generally did was block traffic and the worst Nazis have done is run over protesters.
 
R

Randolph Freelander

Member
Valhelm said:
Randolph Freelander just said that young black people who didn't vote for Hillary are white supremacists. That's exactly the kind of out-of-touch moralizing that stops us from accomplishing any serious and permanent change.
Click to expand...

That is not what I said.

You asked if a majority of black millennials supported white surpremacy, and linked to an article on voter participation rates. On November 8, the majority of black millennials did not vote. On November 8, an overt white supremacist was on the ballot. By not voting, yes, that is passive support on that date. It is.

You asked a question. I'm sorry you don't like the answer.
 
C

CygnusXS

will gain confidence one day
Aaron Strife said:
The narrative surrounding #blm up until this point (at least among white people I've talked to about it) was kind of the same as MLK's comment about moderate whites, "well I don't disagree with them but I disagree with how they go about it" etc

Now that we're seeing actual fucking Nazis out in the streets I can imagine a great deal of people thinking "oh maybe they had a point." Plus it offers a really easy contrast where the "worst" #blm generally did was block traffic and the worst Nazis have done is run over protesters.
Click to expand...
I think it may be the case that a significant number of young whites who nominally oppose white supremacy had no actual idea that the end of de jure white supremacy didn't mean the end of de facto white supremacy. They are now getting an education in reality and will hopefully factor that into their voting choices.
 
P

pigeon

Banned
Valhelm said:
That's such a weird thing to say. People who suffer under white supremacy most acutely are the ones who oppose it most vigorously. But they don't vote in every single election because voting for democrats has historically not been a great tactic in resisting and overturning white supremacy.
Click to expand...

I know plenty of the people you're talking about. We share values but disagree on methods, as is so common.

Adding free college is not going to make them vote. Nor should it! Their philosophical objections to the American system are real ones, not faux pretensions, and milksops will not suffice to overcome them.
 
A

Aaron Strife

Banned
Rumblings that Trump may endorse a primary challenger to Jeff Flake, State Treasurer Jeff DeWitt.

https://mobile.twitter.com/Politics1com/status/897862815284944896

I wonder if Trump endorsing primary challengers to incumbent congresspeople would convince them to act on impeachment. What's the point of trying to please his base if he's just going to rally them against you anyway?

CygnusXS said:
I think it may be the case that a significant number of young whites who nominally oppose white supremacy had no actual idea that the end of de jure white supremacy didn't mean the end of de facto white supremacy. They are now getting an education in reality and will hopefully factor that into their voting choices.
Click to expand...
Like I said earlier, I think a lot of people can be fooled by talking points but once you break out the hoods and swastikas will go "oh shit you are actually fucking racist."

To paraphrase Robert Downey Jr., you never go full Nazi.
 
T

Thunder Monkey

Banned
Spoiled Milk said:
What does leftist mean, then? Is this some definition that's only functionally useful on a video game forum where 3 posters are proper socialists? Also, whenever I hear the word leftist used in conservative political discourse it refers equally to liberal values.
Click to expand...

Well yes, perspective is key.

Conservatives in Kansas use Communist, Socialist, Leftist, and Democrat interchangeably.

They sometimes string them together as descriptors. "Barack Obama wants a Socialist, Leftist, Communist country with death panels."

I feel safe in saying that the vast bulk of conservatives have below average intelligence. They believe what they've been spoonfed by their favored media sources because they don't have much to work with overall.
 
A

AntraxSuicide

Banned
CygnusXS said:
I think it may be the case that a significant number of young whites who nominally oppose white supremacy had no actual idea that the end of de jure white supremacy didn't mean the end of de facto white supremacy. They are now getting an education in reality and will hopefully factor that into their voting choices.
Click to expand...

I met someone new to Mississippi a few months ago, and they genuinely thought the Klan was extinct. Lol no
 
W

whyamihere

Banned
Aaron Strife said:
Rumblings that Trump may endorse a primary challenger to Jeff Flake, State Treasurer Jeff DeWitt.

https://mobile.twitter.com/Politics1com/status/897862815284944896

I wonder if Trump endorsing primary challengers to incumbent congresspeople would convince them to act on impeachment. What's the point of trying to please his base if he's just going to rally them against you anyway?
Click to expand...

sinema_273_091814.jpg
 
K

Kusagari

Member
Aaron Strife said:
Rumblings that Trump may endorse a primary challenger to Jeff Flake, State Treasurer Jeff DeWitt.

https://mobile.twitter.com/Politics1com/status/897862815284944896

I wonder if Trump endorsing primary challengers to incumbent congresspeople would convince them to act on impeachment. What's the point of trying to please his base if he's just going to rally them against you anyway?
Click to expand...

DeWitt would definitely be a more formidable challenger than Ward. Flake's ass is probably grass.
 
B

Basileus777

Member
Aaron Strife said:
Rumblings that Trump may endorse a primary challenger to Jeff Flake, State Treasurer Jeff DeWitt.

https://mobile.twitter.com/Politics1com/status/897862815284944896

I wonder if Trump endorsing primary challengers to incumbent congresspeople would convince them to act on impeachment. What's the point of trying to please his base if he's just going to rally them against you anyway?
Click to expand...

Jeff Flake probably isn't a good example for this considering how he has gone out of his way to alienate pretty much everyone and then decided to make a spectacle of denouncing Trump after supporting all of his agenda.
 
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