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[Nazgul_Hunter]

I think also there's this weird thing where the Clinton campaign has been blamed for all of the things they did wrong (which, I'm down with that), but the left also wants to absolve the Obama -> Trump WWC and non-voting young people from any responsibility for what happened. Which has been a bit weird..

Any honest democratic post-mortem MUST include what happened to the DNC under Obama and why.

The state parties were left bare during these years and we lost a ton of seats. Some was structural and expected, some was racist blowback to the first black president, but lots of activists have complained that the state parties were empty shells that were sacrificed in favor of OFA; which didn't fulfill all the needs of a state party.

 

[Box of Kittens]

Please enlighten me as to how our 2018 strategy and platform are meaningfully different!

I mean, 2014 strategy was to distance candidates in vulnerable districts/states from Obama. 2016 was, I dunno, Trump says mean things. No one considers the Clinton campaign to be a model going forward (to the point where I think people sometimes focus so much on her failures the narrative becomes that she did everything wrong).

I don't really see how 2018 will look like either election. And the party is moving left as he can seen by the positions staked out by 2020 hopefuls. Of course it's not a leftist party because leftists are a small minority.

There is plenty of talk in this very thread about how the Clinton strategy of appealing to moderate republicans in suburbs is the future of the Democratic party.

No one is saying this. There is some talk of how suburbs are trending blue, but the notion that we need to stake our entire strategy on suburban Republicans and ignore the Rust Belt in 2018 is mocked on a regular basis in this thread.

 

[wutwutwut]

As much as I despair at people not turning out to vote, it's a bit too reductionist to leave it at "they vote or they're ok with white supremacy."

Except it's not? That's how the math works in two-party plurality voting. Not voting against a white supremacist (staying at home or voting for Jill Stein) is exactly the same as half a vote for the white supremacist.

So, fine, they're half as OK with white supremacy as Trump voters.

 

[jtb]

If only the POC millenials hate white supremacy, then fuck free college. Reparations, let's do this!

As much as I despair at people not turning out to vote, it's a bit too reductionist to leave it at "they vote or they're ok with white supremacy." Though I don't think silencing some low profile people on twitter will do much of anything either.

It's a binary choice. We have no choice but to be reductive when it comes down to it.

Any honest democratic post-mortem MUST include what happened to the DNC under Obama and why.

The state parties were left bare during these years and we lost a ton of seats. Some was structural and expected, some was racist blowback to the first black president, but lots of activists have complained that the state parties were empty shells that were sacrificed in favor of OFA; which didn't fulfill all the needs of a state party.

Obama has been erased from the left's history of the Democratic party like he was George W. Bush or something. Everyone shits on the Democratic party's strategy the past eight years, including Clinton's. Which is fine - and often justified. Okay, so how do we account for Obama's role in the party's successes and failures then, as well?

 

[Valhelm]

Then stop saying they hate white supremacy, because apparently they don't!

Please don't tell me you think a majority of black millennials support white supremacy.

 

[pigeon]

Please don't tell me you think a majority of black millennials support white supremacy.

If they refuse to vote to oppose white supremacy but would turn out to vote for free college, I don't see any logical analysis that doesn't come to the conclusion that they think white supremacy is less of an issue than college tuition.

I still don't believe this is true, as I have said repeatedly, but it is the logical conclusion of the argument you are making.

 

[wutwutwut]

Please don't tell me you think a majority of black millennials support white supremacy.

Their actions indicate that they're at least half as OK with it as Trump supporters, yes.

A vote in a FPTP system is a chess move. If you bring your personal feelings about the not-white-supremacist candidate into the matter, you're a fool.

 

[Suikoguy]

Any honest democratic post-mortem MUST include what happened to the DNC under Obama and why.

The state parties were left bare during these years and we lost a ton of seats. Some was structural and expected, some was racist blowback to the first black president, but lots of activists have complained that the state parties were empty shells that were sacrificed in favor of OFA; which didn't fulfill all the needs of a state party.

No doubt, this is so rarely talked about.
OFA took over so much of what should have been the DNC/DSCC/DCCC.

I don't understand why Obama did not exert a degree of control to reform these organizations if he saw such issues with them... He was probably the only person that could have done it to any degree, being a two term president of the country/party.

 

[Randolph Freelander]

Please don't tell me you think a majority of black millennials support white supremacy.

They did on November 8.

 

[Takuhi]

I feel like it bears reminding that the Bundy gang fucking walked scott-free.

Defaced native american sites at the refuge too.

I doubt these fucking heroes will be so lucky.

Just FYI, that isn't exactly true. Everyone in the second round of trials was convicted and an additional dozen members plead guilty and got 1-2 year sentences. Only the defendants in the first trial (which was, sadly, most of the leaders) got off scot-free.

 

[Kusagari]

Bernie was offering everything talked about here and millennials still didn't turn out in significant numbers for him in the primary. He won the ones that did turn out, but that doesn't mean much of anything when it comes to the general election.

There is zero reason for me to believe offering free college will suddenly make millenials in this country care.

 

[Box of Kittens]

Obama was a very good president but a pretty bad party leader, and OFA (and letting the DNC rot) was a massive failure.

 

[jtb]

Obama was a very good president but a pretty bad party leader, and OFA (and letting the DNC rot) was a massive failure.

DWS was the gift that just kept on giving, and yet Obama never pulled the trigger.

 

[Suikoguy]

DWS was the gift that just kept on giving, and yet Obama never pulled the trigger.

She was content to coast on what Obama had created.
And it made the damage that was coming worse than it should have been.

 

[smokeymicpot]

Why do people think we are in a episode of the Twilight Zone and think of the wildest conspiracy theories?

 

[Basileus777]

No one is saying this. There is some talk of how suburbs are trending blue, but the notion that we need to stake our entire strategy on suburban Republicans and ignore the Rust Belt in 2018 is mocked on a regular basis in this thread.

It's definitely not one one and saying that the idea is merely mocked is not true either. Though I'll admit that the idea is not the most widespread one despite how vocal some people are about it.

It's a binary choice. We have no choice but to be reductive when it comes down to it.

That's how elections work, actual people are more nuanced that that. If you want to actually turn people out, saying that the 10s of millions of Americans who don't vote are white supremacists is absurd. Overly zealous and purposely reductionist rhetoric doesn't do anyone any favors here.

 

[dramatis]

Don't you guys at this point think that the current college class is no longer millennial

Like, are we going to call young people millennial forever

Spoiler

We're not getting any younger

 

[Bonen no Max'd]

No one is saying this. There is some talk of how suburbs are trending blue, but the notion that we need to stake our entire strategy on suburban Republicans and ignore the Rust Belt in 2018 is mocked on a regular basis in this thread.

It was pretty common until Ossoff lost to be fair

 

[jtb]

It's definitely not one one and saying that the idea is merely mocked is not true either. Though I'll admit that the idea is not the most widespread one despite how vocal some people are about it.


That's how elections work, actual people are more nuanced that that. If you want to actually turn people out, saying that the 10s of millions of Americans who don't vote are white supremacists is absurd.

Would you prefer "content with white supremacy"? "Enabling white supremacy"? The means is the ballot. The end is white supremacy. I completely understand your point (nobody's making this our GOTV messaging or anything), but those two dots have to be connected eventually.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Those entering college this year were born in 98 or 99. Are they still even considered millenials?

My brother is '99 and he doesn't know a time before 24/7 high speed internet access.

 

[ascii42]

Those entering college this year were born in 98 or 99. Are they still even considered millenials?

My brother is '99 and he doesn't know a time before 24/7 high speed internet access.

It varies. Probably the tail end of millennial.

 

[jtb]

It was pretty common until Ossoff lost to be fair

I don't know why people are ignoring my question

How do you win in 2018 without winning every Clinton-GOP district?

We don't want college educated voters because they are the "establishment" and we need to go full populist? And signaling that we're chasing college-educated voters is turning off the Obama-Trump voters? Is that the argument?

 

[Basileus777]

Would you prefer "content with white supremacy"? "Enabling white supremacy"? The means is the ballot. The end is white supremacy. I completely understand your point (nobody's making this our GOTV messaging or anything), but those two dots have to be connected eventually.

I don't see how they need to be connected other than to admit the obvious that Americans are still way more racist (or apathetic about the threats racism plays) than they should be. As an actual characterization of why people don't vote, it's meaningless. Going around labeling everyone who is not lock-step with you as a white supremacist is just a bad idea all around. It's poor argumentation and just stiffens resistance from people that you could actually win over. There are actual people deserving of this label that it should be reserved for.

 

[kirblar]

Those entering college this year were born in 98 or 99. Are they still even considered millenials?

My brother is '99 and he doesn't know a time before 24/7 high speed internet access.

I think younger millenials and Gen Z are starting to look like they have a lot more in common than older and younger millenials tbh.

I don't know why people are ignoring my question

How do you win in 2018 without winning every Clinton-GOP district?

We don't want college educated voters because they are the "establishment" and we need to go full populist? And signaling that we're chasing college-educated voters is turning off the Obama-Trump voters? Is that the argument?

You flip some of the ones Clinton narrowly lost because the GOP won't maintain Trump's gains there either. It's going to be a mix of 2012/16, not a carbon copy of either.

 

[jtb]

I don't see how they need to be connected other than to admit the obvious that Americans are still way more racist (or apathetic about the threats racism plays) than they should be. As an actual characterization of why people don't vote, it's meaningless. Going around labeling everyone who is not lock-step with you as a white supremacist is just a bad idea all around. It's poor argumentation and just stiffens resistance from people that you could actually win over.

Minor quibble: I don't think that this is obvious to a lot of people. But other than that, I think we're in total agreement.

 

[Box of Kittens]

It's definitely not one one and saying that the idea is merely mocked is not true either. Though I'll admit that the idea is not the most widespread one despite how vocal some people are about it.

I literally can't think of a single person arguing this. The person who talks most about suburbs getting bluer and rural areas getting redder is probably kirblar, and he's not advocating we repeat Clinton's neglect of traditional Dem Rust Belt voters in 2018.

 

[Suikoguy]

I don't know why people are ignoring my question

How do you win in 2018 without winning every Clinton-GOP district?

We don't want college educated voters because they are the "establishment" and we need to go full populist? And signaling that we're chasing college-educated voters is turning off the Obama-Trump voters? Is that the argument?

Nevermind the effects of making radical changes to the platform (more so than any ready done) and alienating other voters. All in an effort to chase voters who have historically not voted.

It's a classic cart in front of the horse scenario.

 

[Bonen no Max'd]

I don't know why people are ignoring my question

How do you win in 2018 without winning every Clinton-GOP district?

We don't want college educated voters because they are the "establishment" and we need to go full populist? And signaling that we're chasing college-educated voters is turning off the Obama-Trump voters? Is that the argument?

I wasn't trying to answer your question, but you can find my posts in threads earlier saying that a plausible path to winning the House in 2018 is a combination of districts like CA-49/KS-4 and IA-1 and IL-12. Winning "every" Clinton-GOP district isn't necessary if enough recently-flipped but ancestrally Democratic districts like ME-2 are flipped back.

iirc even if the Democrats won every single district Clinton won without losing any districts they currently hold they still come up short of winning the House, and I don't think all of the Clinton-GOP districts are necessarily winnable.

 

[Spoiled Milk]

He learns the local legends, anecdotes, values, idioms. He listens to small talk. He refrains from rhetoric foreign to the local culture: he knows that worn-out words like "white racist," "fascist pig," and "motherfucker" have been so spewed about that using them is now within the negative experience of the local people, serving only to identify the speaker as "one of those nuts" and to turn off any further communication.

If you're a radical, follow the rules.

 

[kirblar]

(minute differences in the platform are not why Dems lost in '16.)

There were a ton of factors that played into the loss. But that was not one of them.

 

[BoogieWoogie]

Why do people think we are in a episode of the Twilight Zone and think of the wildest conspiracy theories?

The President of the United States yesterday defended Nazis before gleefully talking about his winery. The Twilight Zone has nothing on reality now.

 

[jtb]

I literally can't think of a single person arguing this. The person who talks most about suburbs getting bluer and rural areas getting redder is probably kirblar, and he's not advocating we repeat Clinton's neglect of traditional Dem Rust Belt voters in 2018.

It just strikes me as a total false choice, unless, like Crab (?) argues, you have to go full populist and shit on suburban people to convince the racists you're on their side. Which, personally, I find to be an absurd strategy.

(apologies Crab if I am being horribly reductive about your Corbynification vision of the Democratic party)

I wasn't trying to answer your question, but you can find my posts in threads earlier saying that a plausible path to winning the House in 2018 is a combination of districts like CA-49/KS-4 and IA-1 and IL-12. Winning "every" Clinton-GOP district isn't necessary if enough recently-flipped but ancestrally Democratic districts like ME-2 are flipped back.

iirc even if the Democrats won every single district Clinton won without losing any districts they currently hold they still come up short of winning the House, and I don't think all of the Clinton-GOP districts are necessarily winnable.

"Every" was a bit much. Though I think very doable. 2006 Dems didn't lose a single incumbent or open seat.

The thing about the college-educated vote is that we don't have to "chase" them. (Hillary didn't even "chase" them all that much, other than to say "Hey I'm not racist" and make a few embarrassingly terrible ads.) They're already drifting Dem and have shown they can vote for a Dem on the ballot. They love this whole "checks and balances" bullshit. Seems like me like we shouldn't just ignore the layups.

 

[Valhelm]

Their actions indicate that they're at least half as OK with it as Trump supporters, yes.

A vote in a FPTP system is a chess move. If you bring your personal feelings about the not-white-supremacist candidate into the matter, you're a fool.

That's such a weird thing to say. People who suffer under white supremacy most acutely are the ones who oppose it most vigorously. But they don't vote in every single election because voting for democrats has historically not been a great tactic in resisting and overturning white supremacy.

 

[Teggy]

Pastor Mark Burns
Pastor Mark Burns @pastormarkburns
Had #MLK & the FREEDOM FIGHTERS PeacefullyProtested in #Charolettesville instead of #Antifa, NO ONE would have Died

🤔

 

[Basileus777]

Nevermind the effects of making radical changes to the platform (more so than any ready done) and alienating other voters. All in an effort to chase voters who have historically not voted.

It's a classic cart in front of the horse scenario.

Plenty of them voted for Obama and didn't turn out in 2016. Though I'm not advocating for free college as some example that would matter. But it's important to have a candidate and a message that comes across as authentic to people. Hillary having no credibility is part of why no one cared what her platform was.

(minute differences in the platform are not why Dems lost in '16.)

There were a ton of factors that played into the loss. But that was not one of them.

Yep. No one even knew what the platform was. It was drowned out by Trump and Hillary's emails.

 

[smokeymicpot]

The President of the United States yesterday defended Nazis before gleefully talking about his winery. The Twilight Zone has nothing on reality now.

I don't mean that. I mean people thinking the media is the devil. Like the guy I know posts shit from Alex Jones and thinks 6 companies run the world.

 

[Randolph Freelander]

🤔

Nish Weiseth @NishWeiseth 40m
The CEO's on Trump's economic councils have deeper moral clarity than his Evangelical Christian advisers. Nothing fills me with more rage.



^

 

[Suikoguy]

Plenty of them voted for Obama and didn't turn out in 2016. Though I'm not advocating for free college as some example that would matter. But it's important to have a candidate and a message that comes across as authentic to people.

I'm not disagreeing, but there is a constant debate whether to move to a populist platform.
I disagree with the majority of such a move, especially Free College, and Anti-Trade.

Conversely, i'm for experiments with UBI as an effort to combat the upcoming automationpocalpse. Medicare being added to the Insurance Marketplace, and a national wage increase to $12.

Regarding college, i'd consider a new approach like a free 2 year program open to all that extends past High School that covers the general topics covered in College (probably with acceptance into a major program at a public/private university). Replacing such programs in the major universities, and having the universities focus exclusively on majors instead of GE. We are not to a phase yet where everybody should just get a degree, people should get degrees that are useful somewhere. That liberal arts degree should not be subsidized.

Edit: Reforming the student loan system is one approach often overlooked too.

 

[kirblar]

@aedwardslevy

If you're wondering what hurts Trump with his base: health care yes, Charlottesville no. (Most recent datapoint is Aug. 13-15.)

Shocking news.

 

[jack_package_200]

Shocking news.

Unsurprising

 

[BoogieWoogie]

Shocking news.

I'm sure they'll love it when premiums go up 20% next year then! Just in time for mid-terms!

 

[Valhelm]

They did on November 8.

jesus christ what a bad post

Young black Americans, the demographic who fight and die to overthrow white supremacy, are those most opposed to this institution. Their lack of participation in electoral politics does not speak ill of their political convictions, but instead of the convictions of mainstream candidates and the viability of this whole system as a mechanism of social change.

 

[Box of Kittens]

🤔

I posted about this in the Charlottesville topic, but I recently read a 1965 article about Civil Rights protesters, including MLK. The rhetoric would look eerily familiar. "Both sides" with the KKK, they don't have permits, obstructing traffic is just like lynching, "law and order."

 

[whyamihere]

@BenjySarlin
Agree/disagree numbers from NPR/PBS/Marist poll:

White supremacists: 4-86
White nationalists:4-73
Alt right: 6-48
Antifa: 5-24
BLM: 50-33

great numbers for Bannon

 

[barber]

Nish Weiseth @NishWeiseth 40m
The CEO's on Trump's economic councils have deeper moral clarity than his Evangelical Christian advisers. Nothing fills me with more rage.



^

Well to be fair, their belief on the true god of the GOP is probably stronger

Thos antifa number are "who are you talking about?" levels. Quite surprising for me as a european.

 

[Basileus777]

great numbers

Agree/disagree with what?

 

[AntraxSuicide]

I mean, I guess I don't know. I don't know if you can really "run on" something in midterm, or if it matters at all, or if it's all the economy and the president's numbers.

I guess you can try ("Better Way" and "Better Deal" and "Contract With America"), but I'm not really sure that stuff matters imo.

I think you can run on things, but you don't get to decide the things. Whatever captures the attention of the electorate is what you can run on, and tbh, I don't think any political group can force that. It's a bit like a marketing company trying to force something to go viral.

This is how coalitions work, Pigeon. Young people hate white supremacy, given that almost half of them are not white, but they still don't vote. For this to change, Democratic candidates need to offer policies different from those that they currently do.

If I really want pizza, and I really want steak, and someone offers me pizza, I can't claim that pizza was that important if I turn down the pizza.

And honestly, I also not happy with the conversation. Fighting white supremacy should be non-negotiable to the degree that if someone puts in on the table, you walk out of the room.

 

[nature boy]

Man that sub 35% approval is hard to crack

 

[Kusagari]

great numbers for Bannon

Is that agree as in approval?

Because BLM looks shockingly high.

 

[ShadowSwordmaster]

great numbers for Bannon

BLM is too high.