I think it's more due to the ESRAM. Sony lucked out with how the GDDR5 situation developed, whereas MS had already committed to ESRAM at that point.
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Polygon: MS needs to admit the XB1 Kinect is a peripheral, not a pack-in. [Opinion]
- Thread starter SwiftDeath
- Start date
I think it's more due to the ESRAM. Sony lucked out with how the GDDR5 situation developed, whereas MS had already committed to ESRAM at that point.
How do you reconcile the opinion that the cost of the Kinect should "be on Microsoft" with your statement that it should remain bundled permanently? You are essentially saying that anyone who buys an Xbone should be forced to buy a Kinect along with it. Even if they lowered the price it could always be made lower if they don't include Kinect. Removing it from the box will reduce any hypothetical loss that they would be taking.
Nicktendo86
Member
A mess. I posted this in another thread a couple of days ago but had my first go on my brother's Xbone the other day, I honestly couldn't find how to launch the game with a controller as the game square was so small and out of the way rather than being the biggest one, front and centre. The whole UI looks like a mass of ads to me, terrible.
Kinect was worse than useless as well, it could nto pick up either mine or my brother's voices, we have east London accents which are not hard to understand at all. He tried to show me the gesture thing to get a DVD to play and it just didn't work. Why do they keep tyring to push this shit?
Sho_Nuff82
Member
I was gonna say, I might have to sue Ben for plagiarism. I've been saying almost the exact same thing for the past 6 months. Good to see someone in the press come out and say it.
Kinect could be worth a $100 premium. To some people. With a launch lineup no where near as good as the original Kinect, it's not even close. The thing should be bundled with Kinect Sports, and it should have been out at launch. Asking people to pay more than a PS4 for non-gaming functionality was always a losing bet. The only hope they have of picking up that sales slack is a few Kinect killer apps, and other than Kinect Sports, there's nothing announced for 2014 that even remotely fits that definition.
And where the *bleep* is Dance Central 4?
but that memory config choice was a direct result of needing 8GB of ram, period, to do the whole 3 OS bullshit that lets xbone do the snap and Tv related stuff ... they made their bed.
Just speaking as a consumer, I believe that MS and car manufacturers are running into the same issues. The most important piece of tech that I own/use daily is my phone. As an iPhone user, Siri is what I use. It's what I know. And it's what has worked best for me thus far. I'm sure that Androids offering is just as good. My point is that I'm not going to learn new syntax for my car. And I'm not going to learn a third set of syntax for my console. I believe this is why carmakers are implementing mobile integration solutions into their infotainment/nav systems.
This is my main gripe with Kinnect on 360. It'll be my gripe when I get a XB1. And it'll be my gripe whenever I snag a PSEye or whatever they call it now.
I'll finish by saying that I think Siri isn't all that great either can be extremely frustrating.
This is my main gripe with Kinnect on 360. It'll be my gripe when I get a XB1. And it'll be my gripe whenever I snag a PSEye or whatever they call it now.
I'll finish by saying that I think Siri isn't all that great either can be extremely frustrating.
The fact that I only touch my remote for DVR functions anymore is enough to show Kinect's worth to me.
I know that this is a gaming forum, and most everyone here can't see past "Kinects got no games!", but the entire navigation experience can't be dismissed.
People have to remember that MS poised this device to be the centerpiece of the living room. So Kinect has a bigger purpose than merely games. I have no doubt the games will come, but in the meantime, Kinect has changed the way my wife and I have consumed entertainment in our house... For the better.
One thing I do agree with, is that MS should stop focusing on a graphics war with PS4, and start focusing on compelling features that make Xbox different/better than PS4.
I know that this is a gaming forum, and most everyone here can't see past "Kinects got no games!", but the entire navigation experience can't be dismissed.
People have to remember that MS poised this device to be the centerpiece of the living room. So Kinect has a bigger purpose than merely games. I have no doubt the games will come, but in the meantime, Kinect has changed the way my wife and I have consumed entertainment in our house... For the better.
One thing I do agree with, is that MS should stop focusing on a graphics war with PS4, and start focusing on compelling features that make Xbox different/better than PS4.
Today they aren t what you used to call games.
you know as much as i think all the tv stuff and kinect are lame and i'd take gfx grunt over it any day of the week..... my mate sold his ps4 because he was more enamored with the xbone, becasue of kinect ...so there is certainly a market for it.
but i think it'll fall into gimmick territory real fast if it doesn't work 100% of the time .. and mean while ps4 versions of games look better.
he's already tried to give me one ,failed, demo of kinect ...
you know what the real killer will be .. if EA actually put some effort into madden next year, pushing these consoles .... that will be when the dam bursts imo.
but i think it'll fall into gimmick territory real fast if it doesn't work 100% of the time .. and mean while ps4 versions of games look better.
he's already tried to give me one ,failed, demo of kinect ...
you know what the real killer will be .. if EA actually put some effort into madden next year, pushing these consoles .... that will be when the dam bursts imo.
Nicktendo86
Member
All very well and good, except for a lot of people (like myself) as a navigation tool it just doesn't work. A controller is so much more accurate and faster. Why are you so sure the games will come? They didn't for the 360 and are not so far the Xbone.
As for the graphics war, well they kinda have to, they have underpowered their console compared to their main rival. I don't own either, but when I decide to upgrade later this year it is such a no brainer to go for a PS4 rather than an Xbone it is not even funny.
Dee Dah Dave
Member
Well the way I see it is that the Kinect is either a worthy inclusion for this type of consumer product or it isn't. I really don't see the point in a middle ground where it's an optional accessory. I think it's value can only be properly determined with full commitment and time, hence the "forced" bundle. People asking for it to be axed before the generation has barely even started seems a bit silly to me, I say give it a proper chance first. But hey that's me.
As of right now though it hasn't yet proved it's worth across the board and so consumers are right to reject it. If Microsoft still want to continue to push it then they should foot the bill. I suspect that people's concern are more to do with price than the "forced" Kinect.
digoutyoursoul
Member
Kinect Sports is out in April but so what ? Is that really the defining game to justify its mandatory inclusion ? Going by my experience of the demo it doesn't scream must have to me.
If you are going to make this thing non optional when it comes to actually purchasing the system then you should have software day one that justifies it and they haven't done it. Voice commands ? Oh come on.
I respect the fact there is people out there that like Kinect, there are also others that don't but I have to be honest the way they have pushed it infuriates me especially given the sacrifices in hardware.
They haven't been the same since Natal, it's not compelling enough to difference itself from the competition in my opinion.
If you are going to make this thing non optional when it comes to actually purchasing the system then you should have software day one that justifies it and they haven't done it. Voice commands ? Oh come on.
I respect the fact there is people out there that like Kinect, there are also others that don't but I have to be honest the way they have pushed it infuriates me especially given the sacrifices in hardware.
They haven't been the same since Natal, it's not compelling enough to difference itself from the competition in my opinion.
I've tried using the Kinect for navigating the TV and it fucking sucks. If it works so well for you then more power to ya, but there's absolutely no reason for me to use it over the DirecTV remote.
Louis Cyphre
Banned
If people don't want it just because it includes Kinect then there are other options out there for you like the PS4, PC gaming and the Wii U. If people don't want Kinect because it drove the price up for the hardware then wait for it to become cheaper.
That was easy.
That was easy.
Interfectum
Member
Sales have already shown most people don't want an Xbox to be the centerpiece for their living room. They need to remove Kinect and get that system cheaper now.
You own neither, but know that it doesn't work as a navigation tool? I own it, and it does work.
True, outside of Rivals, D4, and Fantasia, I can't be certain the games are coming, but I believe they are. I also think that Kinect earns its place as a navigation tool and has already earned its worth. I know I'm in the minority here, though.
I'm fine with the (slight, to me) graphical disparity because I prefer the other features (tv, ecosystem) to what Sony is offering.
My Xbox is for my family in my living room, not in my bedroom for me. If I was younger and single with no child, maybe I would have chosen PS4, but the point I'm at now, im more concerned about all of my media, not just games. (hows that for a run on sentence?)
I think one of the problems is that MS poised this device to be the centrepiece of the living room in the US only. In Europe half of the features they claim as selling points are missing, which means it's selling as a games console only, up against a device designed specifically for games that is also cheaper.
Because of that, they lost the UK pretty much instantly, banking on loyalty to XBL when historically the main thing that matters here is price. For such a huge company not to realise that they need to treat each EU market as a separate entity with different traits was just ridiculous.
To have a chance outside NA they need to match the marketing and feature set they aimed at the US across Europe, which is complex, requires local knowledge and will also be incredibly expensive. MS were so desperate to win the US market they thought Europe wouldn't notice that the concept of striking the same kind of deals across a dozen different countries is incredibly unlikely. They should have had an EU presentation detailing a similar deal for football and with specific sections for each major country, not hoping it would sell worldwide based on NA deals to show American sports.
All I can see happening is MS doubling down on their home market as they need to fight off Sony there, and leaving the EU to have whatever scraps it flings our way.
What a shocking surprise!
Seriously, Kinect (2.0) was always going to be a failure. Even if it worked perfectly, I'd rather press a button instead of using gestures or clumsily talk to a machine. Kinect tried to solve problems that never existed in the first place. It's neat tech in theory but unpractical junk in practice. Now the novelty factor is gone, the fad is over. People are over it. Period.
Of course the gaming press fell for the hype once again, justifying the higher price of the Xbone with it (hello, Polygon!) and is now trying to back down when reality proved them wrong again. All that's left to be said is "told you so!"
Seriously, Kinect (2.0) was always going to be a failure. Even if it worked perfectly, I'd rather press a button instead of using gestures or clumsily talk to a machine. Kinect tried to solve problems that never existed in the first place. It's neat tech in theory but unpractical junk in practice. Now the novelty factor is gone, the fad is over. People are over it. Period.
Of course the gaming press fell for the hype once again, justifying the higher price of the Xbone with it (hello, Polygon!) and is now trying to back down when reality proved them wrong again. All that's left to be said is "told you so!"
My point is that if it's in the box, you're paying for it. Let's say (these numbers are made up just as an example) that Microsoft goes crazy and reduces the price to $349 with the Kinect included. Now, for the sake of argument, assume that they lose $150 on every sale at that price. If they remove Kinect from that bundle and just sell the XB1 on it's own for $349, let's say their loss is reduced to $100. Knowing that they are willing to take a $150 loss to make a sale makes me want a $300 version without the Kinect, because I don't want the Kinect for any price.
Regardless of how low Microsoft drops the price of a Kinect bundled sku, you can be certain that they can afford to sell a Kinectless sku for less. There is no scenario in which I believe Microsoft would be "footing the bill" for the Kinect. Since I have zero interest in the Kinect, there is literally no price point at which I will buy one.
gothamghost
Member
Judging by some comments here I am not sure what magic I am working but my Xbox has no problem understanding my voice commands or my wife's voice commands.
Or if it allowed cable passthrough to be awesome/useful instead of just being a crappy cable box that takes more electricity.
If for some reason you like the voice commands and they work for you? Great but they don't require an expensive camera to do voice commands.
Then it appears the Xbox One is not for you.
Dee Dah Dave
Member
Obviously Kinect included or not included will have a very immediate impact on profit margins and it's Microsoft's call on what they do about it. Footing the bill of Kinect, while not ideal could be a better option in the long run than the very real possibility of losing significant market share.
I suspect you are in a very tiny minority of people who "won't buy the Xbone at any price with Kinect included" lol.
Again I think the Xbox Ones main problem for the majority of people is price.
You guys sound like Mattrick. Pathetic.
You already have the peripheral, why do you care if others don't?
Prior to release, the reasoning was "an optional Kinect won't force devs to really use kinect in their games". It's painfully obvious now that this is not happening.
Time to let go, Microsoft.
I agree, but that's a way bigger problem for Microsoft than it is for me.
As long as Kinect is included, the contention that the Xbone could be much cheaper with that hardware removed will remain. Furthermore, the longer MS waits to make the system cheaper, the longer the PS4 has to gobble up the market and become the default 8th gen console of choice.
Ken Masters
Banned
Kinect needs to be dropped, then price reduced to $349, because even at the same price it's still a technologically weaker system and gamers know that
Sho_Nuff82
Member
This article isn't about what consumers need to do, it's about what MS needs to do to not be outsold 3:1 ww in non-Holiday months. "Buy something else" isn't an acceptable answer for MS' consumer electronics division.
CheDominik
Member
I just think MS misread the market badly. After the initial success of Kinect and the Wii among families and what we like to call casual gamers, they thought the same demographic would run into stores to get Kinect 2.0. But I disagree heavily with that. IMO for people that liked the novelty, the Kinect1/Wii motion controls are good enough. It's always the hardcore that preorders or buys consoles right at launch and MS plans just aren't very appealing to them.
The IR blaster is another odd choice, do they really think people want to have two devices running(and consume power which is getting more and more expensive) just to watch some TV?
Add that to the exodus to mobile gaming and I honestly believe, that a console in today's market can only exist if it creates a niche among hardcore console gamers which Sony seems to do right.
The IR blaster is another odd choice, do they really think people want to have two devices running(and consume power which is getting more and more expensive) just to watch some TV?
Add that to the exodus to mobile gaming and I honestly believe, that a console in today's market can only exist if it creates a niche among hardcore console gamers which Sony seems to do right.
That year halo 3 and cod 4 came out.
September 07-September 08 was godlike.
I agree with this.. the only way they could justify paying more for a weaker system was because of kinect. Yet they don't have any games to make you care about it. They need to release a slew of games to make the kinect useful for something other than navigation.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
The entire 3rd party market tagged motion gaming as a fad, and treated it as such. The few genres that motion does really well (fitness, dance, sports) have been saturated with countless offerings, to the point that anyone interested in those genres could play for years without upgrading. We just came off a holiday season where Wii Party, Wii Fit, and Mario & Sonic completely cratered in sales.
I have no idea how Kinect Sports will do, but even if it pushes 2-3 million copies like the first two, that will never be worth the loss in marketshare from the price bump.
Louis Cyphre
Banned
I'm pathetic? Thanks. To me what is pathetic are the constant cries out there over Kinect. Get over it. Microsoft wanted it to be integral to its design. Don't like then move on. If consumers feel the Gamepad on the Wii U is holding them back from purchasing it then they should move on as well. These companies don't need to make the same systems just to appease to the same audience. You have choices so stop acting like you don't.
3rdamention
Member
I remember in Polygon's Xbox One Hardware Review, they outlined the potential of Kinect as one of the biggest features for scoring it higher than PS4. Now, they seem disappointed that the potential hasn't been truly realized in the first 3 months of release.
However, with Kinect Sports coming out, I am sure that will be enough to warrant Polygon from not changing the Xbox One review score. The crazy thing is, I agree with this article pretty much.
However, with Kinect Sports coming out, I am sure that will be enough to warrant Polygon from not changing the Xbox One review score. The crazy thing is, I agree with this article pretty much.
CheDominik
Member
Isn't that exactly what's happening? People don't find it appealing so they don't buy it. But MS has to find answers why demand seems to have fallen off and they were pretty much DOA in Europe.
Doin' Orth proud there, soldier.
I will buy the ps4 to go along with my Wii U and PC, but I'm also going to be vocal about the crappy peripheral. Especially after those kinect-less SKU rumors.
BibiMaghoo
Member
There was nothing wrong with the principal of it's inclusion. A differential that made customers look at one over another, is never bad in itself.
But as said, they utterly failed to actually do anything with it. Having motion controls for UI is not enough. Having voice commands is not enough either. The former has been done by everyone last gen, for many years. The latter is too basic and gimmicky to be meaningful.
I don't even think unique games are the issue, instead having games that use it in a unique way is the answer. A game built around it will likely be gash. But almost every game could be enhanced in some way to use it, but this is not happening. The question is why.
Is it a cost things for devs? Why would MS not contribute to push it out?
Is it a lack of ideas from devs? Likely I think, for they need to find a use that enhances without seeming tacked on for the sake of it.
I guess it is a dead peripheral until someone steps up. But PS fans, just remember that this has a knock on effect to everyone that purchased the camera. No kinect support almost 100% equates to no camera support in a meaningful way.
But as said, they utterly failed to actually do anything with it. Having motion controls for UI is not enough. Having voice commands is not enough either. The former has been done by everyone last gen, for many years. The latter is too basic and gimmicky to be meaningful.
I don't even think unique games are the issue, instead having games that use it in a unique way is the answer. A game built around it will likely be gash. But almost every game could be enhanced in some way to use it, but this is not happening. The question is why.
Is it a cost things for devs? Why would MS not contribute to push it out?
Is it a lack of ideas from devs? Likely I think, for they need to find a use that enhances without seeming tacked on for the sake of it.
I guess it is a dead peripheral until someone steps up. But PS fans, just remember that this has a knock on effect to everyone that purchased the camera. No kinect support almost 100% equates to no camera support in a meaningful way.
And yet I doubt anyone in Redmond thinks like you. If dropping Kinect halts the slide , they'll drop it in a heart beat.
Voice commands rarely work for me and my wife and not at all for my kids , there is no TV functionality in the UK ( where electricity is expensive and running a second box all the time to save a single button press on a remote is dumb as he'll ) and no software for it.
I don't know a single person irl who has anything good about the Kinect specific features past that " huh , that's kinda cool" first day shininess.
I hope they can salvage it , I've got one and hope to use it , even if it's only stuff for the kids ( who love Kinect 1) but I fully understand why people want rid of it.
RedNumberFive
Banned
Microsoft must have quit cutting checks to Polygon to illicit such a damaging op-ed piece.
Yeah, a lot of people have decided to move on, and more will continue to. They are moving on right over to PS4. That's a problem and Microsoft needs to deal with it. I guarantee there is no one at Microsoft in meetings saying, "people don't want Kinect? Fuck 'em, they can just not buy our system." Being outside 2-to-1 in their home turf is a huge problem in need of a real solution, and if the problem is Kinect then it needs to become optional.
It just baffles me that some people here treat a multi hundred dollar console as it was a 5 dollar hamburger; gotta have it my way!
You can't go through life expecting every entity, business or otherwise, to bend to your every whim. You have to decide if a product being sold is worth the price to you.
If MS decides that its worth it to release the Xbox without Kinect, then ok. But that's for them to decide. I'm not sure that MS would see the argument "I wouldn't buy the Xbox for $100 if it still included Kinect!" a reasonable customer to pursue. But that's up to them.
What kind of control base scheme can allow you to lob or hurl at any strength, at will?
Indeed, you could turn shooters on their heads with a split full gamepad motion controller - having the player strafe and turn normally, but now their designated primary controller can be the actual pointer/shooter.
With a bit of calibration and the absolute positioning of the camera, you could get relatively close to 1:1 aiming.
It wouldn't be the same thing as a traditional FPS - instead, it'd open up new genres and possibilities that may prove to be more compelling than what came before.
nevernamed
Banned
Sounds like a familiar question in regards to kinect 1
Fox Mulder
Member
lol, isn't that what is happening right now?
they created a product that pushes me to their competition after 10 years of liking their consoles.
RoninChaos
Member
Ben Kuchera strikes me as a little manic. Like, after he tried to shame that writer it bugged the fuck out of me. He gets it wrong more often than he gets it right but I still enjoy his writing. When he's on top of it, I enjoy his work. When he's berating people or just being a smug dick, I can't stand him.
Chasing Nintendo and tablet casuals was a poor choice in retrospect.
Still don't understand the thinking of trying to do so with a game system. And a $500 one at that.
By the time is even at a reasonable price for casuals to adopt, the smartphone/tablet/smart display might look completely different anyways.
Still don't understand the thinking of trying to do so with a game system. And a $500 one at that.
By the time is even at a reasonable price for casuals to adopt, the smartphone/tablet/smart display might look completely different anyways.