Support NeoGAF

[FyreWulff]

How to perfectly wipe a hard drive (without the possibility of the data being recovered through forensics tools) is actually a complex and difficult process that you need specialized tools for. Also the techniques for recovering data are constantly improving, and so are the tools to counter them. Unless you work in data forensics yourself, you wouldn't know how it exactly works and what the latest tech is, and thus you would need to look it up. Carmack is a genius and very knowledgeable, but there are things that he does not know. He's human too.

Nobody has ever provably recovered data from a one-pass of all zeroes written drive

 

[Quote]

it was in fact a jolly good time

 

[Aztechnology]

Oh yes this got me lol.

 

[mclem]

So if Facebook were to purge Oculus of everyone with controversy attached to them, would Zuckerberg then say:

Oculus was a mistake. It's nothing but Abrash

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

I wonder if Palmer has any sick memes to sum up his reaction to letting his boss eat a $500 million judgement. Too big a fail amirite?

I bet he's looking at his alt-right meme buddies to help him out.

 

[Maiden Voyage]

I wonder if Palmer has any sick memes to sum up his reaction to letting his boss eat a $500 million judgement. Too big a fail amirite?

NimblePoorMan.

This seems like a solid outcome for the whole thing. I will be watching the next Zenimax suit closely.

 

[Nezacant]

At least Carmack is absolved in all this if I'm interpreting it correctly. Palmer is the one that broke the NDA, and it's Facebook that will have to pay for it by extension.

Hes not. From the Polygon article:

While not awarding any money on this count, the jury also found that id Software co-founder and current Oculus CTO John Carmack took Rage source code and thousands of electronic files on a USB storage device which contained ZeniMax VR technology when he left the company.

I'm not a lawyer, but I'm guessing this contributed to the jury's conclusion that copyrights were infringed.

 

[Rumblebones]

Palmer Lucky can get fucked, stay collecting them Ls.

 

[vermadas]

John Carmack FB post about the trial:
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1913546895546485&id=100006735798590

The Zenimax vs Oculus trial is over. I disagreed with their characterization, misdirection, and selective omissions. I never tried to hide or wipe any evidence, and all of my data is accounted for, contrary to some stories being spread.
Being sued sucks. For the most part, the process went as I expected.
The exception was the plaintiff’s expert that said Oculus’s implementations of the techniques at issue were “non-literally copied” from the source code I wrote while at Id Software.
This is just not true. The authors at Oculus never had access to the Id C++ VR code, only a tiny bit of plaintext shader code from the demo. I was genuinely interested in hearing how the paid expert would spin a web of code DNA between completely unrelated codebases.
Early on in his testimony, I wanted to stand up say “Sir! As a man of (computer) science, I challenge you to defend the efficacy of your methodology with data, including false positive and negative rates.” After he had said he was “Absolutely certain there was non-literal copying” in several cases, I just wanted to shout “You lie!”. By the end, after seven cases of “absolutely certain”, I was wondering if gangsters had kidnapped his grandchildren and were holding them for ransom.
If he had said “this supports a determination of”, or dozens of other possible phrases, then it would have fit in with everything else, but I am offended that a distinguished academic would say that his ad-hoc textual analysis makes him “absolutely certain” of anything. That isn’t the language of scientific inquiry.
The notion of non-literal copying is probably delicious to many lawyers, since a sufficient application of abstraction and filtering can show that just about everything is related. There are certainly some cases where it is true, such as when you translate a book into another language, but copyright explicitly does not apply to concepts or algorithms, so you can’t abstract very far from literal copying before comparing. As with many legal questions, there isn’t a bright clear line where you need to stop.
The analogy that the expert gave to the jury was that if someone wrote a book that was basically Harry Potter with the names changed, it would still be copyright infringement. I agree; that is the literary equivalent of changing the variable names when you copy source code. However, if you abstract Harry Potter up a notch or two, you get Campbell’s Hero’s Journey, which also maps well onto Star Wars and hundreds of other stories. These are not copyright infringement.
There are objective measures of code similarity that can be quoted, like the edit distance between abstract syntax trees, but here the expert hand identified the abstract steps that the code fragments were performing, made slides that nobody in the courtroom could actually read, filled with colored boxes outlining the purportedly analogous code in each case. In some cases, the abstractions he came up with were longer than the actual code they were supposed to be abstracting.
It was ridiculous. Even without being able to read the code on the slides, you could tell the steps varied widely in operation count, were often split up and in different order, and just looked different.
The following week, our side’s code expert basically just took the same slides their expert produced (the judge had to order them to be turned over) and blew each of them up across several slides so you could actually read them. I had hoped that would have demolished the credibility of the testimony, but I guess I overestimated the impact.
Notably, I wasn’t allowed to read the full expert report, only listen to him in trial, and even his expert testimony in trial is under seal, rather than in the public record. This is surely intentional -- if the code examples were released publicly, the internet would have viciously mocked the analysis. I still have a level of morbid curiosity about the several hundred-page report.
The expert witness circuit is surely tempting for many academics, since a distinguished expert can get paid $600+ an hour to prepare a weighty report that supports a lawyer’s case. I don’t have any issue with that, but testifying in court as an expert should be as much a part of your permanent public record as the journal papers you publish. In many cases, the consequences are significant. There should be a danger to your reputation if you are imprudent.

 

[Wrestlemania]

Because they clearly have no idea what the shit they're doing, are literally relying on $500,000,000 stolen code to get this thing working, and because they aren't, never have been, and never will be a gaming company?

Facebook's interest in VR has little to do with gaming.

 

[cleveridea]

Isn't that a chump change for Oculus? I mean Facebook bought them for 2 billion. Plus if Facebook is helping them footing the bill, that is barely a sign of death to Oculus.

Facebook just announced net income (profit) of $3.57 billion for the Quarter

So they earn $500 million in 2 weeks. That's profit not revenue (which is $8.81 billion for the quarter)

 

[Dre_G_Writer]

So Carmack was found at fault just not monetarily.

Now Zenimax is looking at stopping Oculus sales based on this. Its not over folks!





http://www.polygon.com/2017/2/1/14478258/zenimax-oculus-injunction

 

[vpance]

John Carmack FB post about the trial:
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1913546895546485&id=100006735798590

Santiago ordered the code red.

 

[Donos]

Carmack intentionally destroyed data on his computer after he got notice of this litigation and right after he researched on Google how to wipe a hard drive—and data on other Oculus computers and USB storage devices were similarly deleted (as determined by a court-appointed, independent expert in computer forensics); (vii) when he quit id Software,

What did Carmack google for erasing a HDD?
There are a lot of strong free tools available to erase your HDD. At least enough to give them a lot of trouble rebuilding it even for a forensic specialist. Did he choose "Quick erase" from Tune Up Utilities or what?

 

[Triggerhappytel]

John Carmack FB post about the trial:
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1913546895546485&id=100006735798590

I mean, I don't think the guy's an idiot and at face value it seems like he has a point, but on the other hand it's been through court and they lost, and without knowing the granular detail of both sides' evidence I have to assume the outcome was fair. Maybe the expert's findings need to be published so that other tech experts can analyse it.

 

[BrownieBrownBrown]

Haha Oculus, you ded.

 

[Jackpot]

It doesn't seem plausible that John Carmack had to Google how to wipe a hard drive, considering he has surely built dozens and dozens of computers in his day and sold/gave/disposed of what must be hundreds of HDD's. Presumably he would at minimum be familiar with DBAN, dozens of Windows wiping tools, or whatever exists in Linux, and could assuredly writen his own in about 10 minutes. Not even getting into how they would have come by such evidence, which I assume means he Googled it from his Zenimax computer. Definitely smells fabricated.

This is taking armchair lawyer to an absurd degree. Lay off the conspiracy sites.

 

[Lactose_Intolerant]

I mean, I don't think the guy's an idiot and at face value it seems like he has a point, but on the other hand it's been through court and they lost, and without knowing the granular detail of both sides' evidence I have to assume the outcome was fair. Maybe the expert's findings need to be published so that other tech experts can analyse it.

He also knows he can say anything because the report/testimony is sealed. It is easy to loudly blame the expert witness to save face when there is no way to prove who is right.

This is just marketing to save his reputation.

 

[SJurgenson]

I mean, I don't think the guy's an idiot and at face value it seems like he has a point, but on the other hand it's been through court and they lost, and without knowing the granular detail of both sides' evidence I have to assume the outcome was fair. Maybe the expert's findings need to be published so that other tech experts can analyse it.

Perhaps the reporting has been wrong, but wasn't the copywrite judgement based off Occulus using DOOM 3/logos during the Kickstarter campaign?

Even so, and as a fan of Carmack -- dude, shut up. You guys lost the case, any whining you do in public is just ammo for Zenimax at this point.

The fact is it was obvious that Zenimax would win to some degree from the start, as it was abundantly clear from the outside that the initial Kickstarter pitch was heavily based on Carmack/Zenimax work.

The fact here is that Oculus/Palmer's/Carmack's hubris here is their downfall. If even 10% of Zenimax's accusations were true, they deserved the win they got.

 

[Justified]

Perhaps the reporting has been wrong, but wasn't the copywrite judgement based off Occulus using DOOM 3/logos during the Kickstarter campaign?

Even so, and as a fan of Carmack -- dude, shut up. You guys lost the case, any whining you do in public is just ammo for Zenimax at this point.

The fact is it was obvious that Zenimax would win to some degree from the start, as it was abundantly clear from the outside that the initial Kickstarter pitch was heavily based on Carmack/Zenimax work.

The fact here is that Oculus/Palmer's/Carmack's hubris here is their downfall. If even 10% of Zenimax's accusations were true, they deserved the win they got.

No the reporting does accurately covers it. They found evidence of code being copied from Zenimax to Oculus, and Oculus programmers using that code in their SDKs. Also Carmack admitted to stealing code, and trying to cover it up. This is on record. So Im not sure what he is getting at with his post.

And for all the things that he "wanted to stand up and say" to the Forensic expert, why didnt his lawyer do this. There is a such thing as cross-examination

 

[FinaruDensetsu]

Carmack is kind of an ass.

 

[Zarth]

I find it hard to believe all these articles that were paraphrasing testimonies misquoted so horribly. It sounds like people were exposed to stuff. After that they don't even have to copy.

He makes comparisons to books. But you can buy those books and read them. The stuff he allegedly took wasn't available to the public. He should realize that just reading it/having it after leaving his job is not ok.

He'll probably never be a big company man again and honestly he probably doesn't want to be.

 

[Somnid]

It's a shame this all boils down to character judgements and that people don't realize these types of cases are always a net loss to the software community.

 

[uncredited male]

Carmack is kind of an ass.

Someone read Masters of Doom.

 

[Chris_Rivera]

I wonder if Palmer has any sick memes to sum up his reaction to letting his boss eat a $500 million judgement. Too big a fail amirite?

Uh...the kotaku story says Palmer must pony up $50 mil of his own.

 

[jax]

Facebook's interest in VR has little to do with gaming.

Which is exactly why they should sell Oculus.

They're ruining not only that brand, but spearheading a bad taste for all VR in general. (Countless lawsuits, appalling staff and leadership issues, forced exclusivity..)

They're mucking up what should be a revolution.

I hope another company such as Nvidia or Samsung makes a PC VR headset soon so Oculus can die off quietly.

It's really a shame.

 

[Makai]

I mean, I don't think the guy's an idiot and at face value it seems like he has a point, but on the other hand it's been through court and they lost, and without knowing the granular detail of both sides' evidence I have to assume the outcome was fair. Maybe the expert's findings need to be published so that other tech experts can analyse it.

The idea of "non-literal copying" really is bullshit for a rendering pipeline.

 

[10k]

Whew that's a lot of AAA game funding. I expect lots of new IP from Bethesda now.

 

[Nezacant]

Which is exactly why they should sell Oculus.

They're ruining not only that brand, but spearheading a bad taste for all VR in general. (Countless lawsuits, appalling staff and leadership issues, forced exclusivity..)

They're mucking up what should be a revolution.

I hope another company such as Nvidia or Samsung makes a PC VR headset soon so Oculus can die off quietly.

It's really a shame.

HTC Vive?

 

[Kremzeek]

it's definitely a slap on the wrist, but i'm glad that turdbag Luckey was specifically called out and fined.

 

[Maiden Voyage]

HTC Vive?

Nah, Samsung should really bring their GearVR stuff to PCs.

 

[Sotha_Sil]

Whew that's a lot of AAA game funding. I expect lots of new IP from Bethesda now.

I can imagine some Pete Hines trolling at E3 2018:

"We are proud to announce two new IPs releasing early next year, brought to you by Occulus."

 

[Nezacant]

Nah, Samsung should really bring their GearVR stuff to PCs.

Gear VR is co-developed by Oculus...

 

[Compsiox]

Gear VR is co-developed by Oculus...

Shhhhhh

 

[Mechanical Snowman]

Whew that's a lot of AAA game funding. I expect lots of new IP from Bethesda now.

If ZeniMax reinvest back into VR with their awarded damages (whatever that ends up being if an appeal is successful), I think overall this has the potential to good for VR and mass adoption, Beth is already doing a great thing with FO4VR.

 

[BlastProcessing]

John Carmack FB post about the trial:
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1913546895546485&id=100006735798590

Ah. the old That guy was lying and maybe gangsters kidnapped his grandchildren and made him lie defense.

 

[Calabi]

Ah. the old That guy was lying and maybe gangsters kidnapped his grandchildren and made him lie defense.

I'd like to at least see that evidence myself, before I condemn him.

That line of evidence does seem pretty weird. So he's stupid because he left all this other evidence for them to find, but then he's smart enough to think to format these drives.

Formatting the hardrives could have just been standard usage from when starting at a new company. And that web search did they get that direct from google? Is google saving all our searches and giving it to anyone that asks now?

 

[Maiden Voyage]

Gear VR is co-developed by Oculus...

I hope another company such as Nvidia or Samsung makes a PC VR headset soon so Oculus can die off quietly.

thatsthejoke.gif