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[Instro]

God it's such a shame there's are gamers who are so willing to bend over and make excuses for any failings that no HDD in 2012 is considered "no big deal."

It's a massive deal - not just size limitations, but the write/read spead is massively slower once we have to use SD cards to shuttle shit around. I fill up 8GB on my Xbox 360 in a weekend. Shuttling around shit using SD cards is going to make the whole process painful garbage and instantly make their download service irrelevant versus their competitors.

A true shame. I hope it's a false rumour

Only way SD cards could work as a solution imo is if they only allow UHS SDXC type cards, since I believe they have read/write speeds equivalent or greater than the average HDD dont they?

Maybe they will force some sort of proprietary SD card on us, rather than allowing consumers to buy their own. The internal 8GBs itself isnt bad, it just depends on what options they have for storage expansion. Ideally though they will allow for expansion by regular HDD or SD card.

 

[StevieP]

Only way SD cards could work as a solution imo is if they only allow UHS SDXC type cards, since I believe they have read/write speeds equivalent or greater than the average HDD dont they?

Maybe they will force some sort of proprietary SD card on us, rather than allowing consumers to buy their own. The internal 8GBs itself isnt bad, it just depends on what options they have for storage expansion. Ideally though they will allow for expansion by regular HDD or SD card.

The past indicates that SD cards won't be proprietary and will be off the shelf (they even patched SDHC into the SD slot on the Wii, I think). Yes, the SDXC standard you speak of has speeds and sizes equivalent(ish) to mobile HDDs. On the expensive side now, but we know how it works with flash memory.

 

[Chris1964]

...

Finally you gave yourself a tag.

 

[AceBandage]

I just wan a new Smash Bros with fully functioning online.

 

[The M.O.B]

I just wan a new Smash Bros with fully functioning online.

.

 

[SolarPowered]

The thread title confused me until I read it aloud. Now it's pretty clever haha.

It's nice to see all the rumors categorized and I was wondering when outside help was confirmed for Nintendo's online strategy.

 

[Instro]

The past indicates that SD cards won't be proprietary and will be off the shelf (they even patched SDHC into the SD slot on the Wii, I think). Yes, the SDXC standard you speak of has speeds and sizes equivalent(ish) to mobile HDDs. On the expensive side now, but we know how it works with flash memory.

Ok thanks for clearing that up. My point about the proprietary card was that if they wanted to require that the Cafe only use SDXC cards then a proprietary version might be the way to go.

 

[Grampa Simpson]

You're right. Cost for speed are better on most HDDs. But HDDs are inferior in some ways as well. Especially in the field of HDD reliability (it's a moving part/head where flash is just a chip) and part cost maintaining a similar level throughout the years, and getting pricier for lower capacity as years go on - neither of which Nintendo likes to play with. Flash media just seems to make more sense from Nintendo's (let's call it) "unique" perspective. Love it or hate it sometimes they operate in strange ways. For all you know they could open up the USB ports if their OS is secure enough.

Hard drives are the flat winner in any cost/benefit analysis that you can come up with for 2012.

Given that, there's a very *clear* reason to not include it as part of the system. They fail at 3-6 years. If the system were totally reliant on the hard drive functioning, then they would have a reliability issue at the hard drive itself. That is a damn good reason to make on-board flash the primary storage for a system. Store all of your system data, user accounts, and save games there.

Add a Hard Drive as an accessory (or pack-in optional accessory) and store all the DLC there. You can download again once if the drive ever fails, or you decide to upgrade to a larger capacity. If the flash fails, then you have another issue, but at least it's going to be a slow degrading failure instead of a sudden mechanical lockup and offer the opportunity to back up one's data.

 

[Krowley]

I was initially ok with the idea of no HDD for reasons of reliability (although I thought the size was too small), but I hadn't considered the issue of MMOs. That could be a big problem. MMOs are likely to be a big deal on consoles next gen.

But as to the reliability issue, nintendo usually wants their console to be strong enough to endure a beating, and usually they can. I'm not sure about the wii, but I remember a video of a GC getting destroyed and still working. I imagine disc drives are already kind of questionable as far as nintendo is concerned because of the moving parts, and HDDs would be going over the line. It may be illogical, but I'm almost sure they'll go with flash, even if it isn't the best option.

 

[Amir0x]

how fucking irresponsible do you have to be to break a HDD?

I've never had one HDD failure in my entire history of using PCs and consoles.

 

[Totobeni]

This system need Wifi/3G on the controller device thingy so we can do something like PS3/PSP remoteplay (?) over the internet on the controller screen and play our console games everywhere.

 

[AceBandage]

This system need Wifi/3G on the controller device thingy so we can do something like PS3/PSP remoteplay (?) over the internet on the controller screen and play our console games everywhere.

Wifi? Maybe.
3G? Oh hell no.

 

[SolarPowered]

Why is there such a reluctance to believe that Cafe will be notably more powerful than the current generation systems? Is it fanboy denial gone haywire? Multiple sources have reported that it will be and everything we have heard so far points to exactly that. Some people need to wake up and realize that Nintendo is not going the ultra conservative route ala Wii this time. And before some people dismiss this as a pipe dream, if we take a little trip down memory lane (when most of these doubters were probably still in diapers) we can see how systems like the SNES, N64 and even GCN were high performance systems for their time. Nothing new here folks.

Yeah, I have to agree with this. These silly rumors spread like wildfire even though the first rumors stated that it would be "significantly" more powerful than the PS3. It's almost as silly as the fact that there are people out there who expect the 720 and PS4 to run games at the level of the Samaritan demo...

how fucking irresponsible do you have to be to break a HDD?

I've never had one HDD failure in my entire history of using PCs and consoles.

It'd be really silly of them to pass on an HDD when the damn consoles are supposed to be stationary. I've never even heard of HDD failures on gaf. Most of the failures I've ever come across on both systems had more to do with heating, disc tray failures or a faulty power brick.

 

[wsippel]

how fucking irresponsible do you have to be to break a HDD?

I've never had one HDD failure in my entire history of using PCs and consoles.

You never had an IBM Deathstar, then. Or a random, cheap Spinpoint. I had seven or eight HDD failures of the "rien ne va plus" variety in the last ten years, only one of which was obviously my fault.

 

[Yazus]

I just wan a new Smash Bros with fully functioning online.

And Mario Karti Wii 2 with Online that is not shit.

 

[ElFly]

how fucking irresponsible do you have to be to break a HDD?

I've never had one HDD failure in my entire history of using PCs and consoles.

That's just good luck, and about as precise an assessment of their reliability as saying that PS2s were super reliable just because someone somewhere still has a launch unit working.

 

[evangd007]

I mentioned it in one of the other threads, but IMO, the most likely things for the retro rumor (the one where it was said they were working on something everybody had been wanting them to do) are:


1. A "Halo killer" new IP FPS game.
2. Another Metroid Game
3. Kid Icarus (fan rumors for years associated with factor 5 and with Retro at different times)
4. That action RPG game they abandoned way back in the GC days.

All of these have been actively sought by subsets of fans at different times.

edit// add Zelda to the list because it has been asked for by fans, even though I think it is pretty unlikely.

I vote an action game as opposed to "that" action game. I also am still holding out hope that the FPS IP will be from Crytek UK, aka Free Radical, aka old Rare.

 

[BGBW]

And Mario Karti Wii 2 with Online that is not shit.

Really? Mario Kart Wii was one of the few Wii titles to have decent online.

 

[Grampa Simpson]

how fucking irresponsible do you have to be to break a HDD?

I've never had one HDD failure in my entire history of using PCs and consoles.

It's a matter of volume. I had 3 1.6gb WD's give me the click of death in three different computers at three different locations 2 years after I bought them all within a two week span. I have a pile of 10 500gb Seagate drives that I am sure will never die, and a pile of 5 1.5tb that I'm afraid to breathe on as one has already failed and the other 4 have slowing incrementing SMARTS errors.

Hard drives are a crap shoot. Raid offers some protection though, and I would suggest it for anyone serious about long term data storage.

 

[Krowley]

how fucking irresponsible do you have to be to break a HDD?

I've never had one HDD failure in my entire history of using PCs and consoles.

I've had a few HDD failures. Sometimes they go suddenly (just stop working and your pc won't boot) and sometimes they go slowly (corrupt sectors and problems that gradually get worse.)

I've also had a few that lasted long enough to be installed in multiple PCs. It just varies. HDDs don't handle bangs and bumps very well, and sometimes they can just kind of self-destruct for no reason, but sometimes they just keep on trucking.

And for the record, I don't throw my computers around or anything , although i do tend to move to new living quarters quite a bit, and computers probably get jostled during the moves.

edit// I also use computers for a really long time, and pretty much keep using them until they die on me.

 

[Totobeni]

Wifi? Maybe.
3G? Oh hell no.

4G then?

Anyway, I hope they copy the Remoteplay and improve it.

 

[sfried]

God it's such a shame there's are gamers who are so willing to bend over and make excuses for any failings that no HDD in 2012 is considered "no big deal."

It's a massive deal - not just size limitations, but the write/read spead is massively slower once we have to use SD cards to shuttle shit around. I fill up 8GB on my Xbox 360 in a weekend. Shuttling around shit using SD cards is going to make the whole process painful garbage and instantly make their download service irrelevant versus their competitors.

A true shame. I hope it's a false rumour

Here's a question Amir0x: Suppose like the 3DS, the 8GB internal storage is only for built-in system software/firmware, and you can run the rest off directly through an SD card. Would it be bad at all? You might say 32GB is still too small, but what I'm waiting to here is SDXC compatibility, which is actually not far fetched and feasable.

As for hard drive failures, yes, I've encountered some of the worst: bad sectors, luckily was saved by ghosting, and also external drive lacking power/read-write errors under normal use (as in, sationary). So moving parts IS a big deal. SD seems to solve those problems. Only question is read-write times matching that of an HDD.

 

[beelzebozo]

i like when hard drives start making the clicking sound.

that's how you know they're really working good.

 

[AceBandage]

4G then?

Anyway, I hope they copy the Remoteplay and improve it.

It's not a performance thing.
3G and 4G is just expensive as hell and unreliable for gaming, period.

It'll likely be able to do some kind of remote play, but I dunno if you can take your controller out with you and play it anywhere. That would eat into 3DS sales.

 

[1-D_FTW]

well not everybody likes DKCR, for one. I don't. I don't want to see them waste their talent.

But even those who do like it might not want to see them forced to franchise whore again. Retro is so talented it'd be nice to see them come up with something original and blessedly unrestrained by franchise expectations.

+1. Let Retro run wild on what they envision as the future of the online shooter.

I realize there's a vocal minority here that hates the genre, but it's the #1 genre in the US and it's the genre that moves systems. I wanna see them create a tech heavy engine that pushes boundaries in not only graphics, but gameplay.

I've had a few HDD failures. Sometimes they go suddenly (just stop working and your pc won't boot) and sometimes they go slowly (corrupt sectors and problems that gradually get worse.)

I've also had a few that lasted long enough to be installed in multiple PCs. It just varies. HDDs don't handle bangs and bumps very well, and sometimes they can just kind of self-destruct for no reason, but sometimes they just keep on trucking.

And for the record, I don't throw my computers around or anything , although i do tend to move to new living quarters quite a bit, and computers probably get jostled during the moves.

edit// I also use computers for a really long time, and pretty much keep using them until they die on me.

You should have a race. Run those computers solely on SD memory and see how long those live. Something tells me the HD is gonna win (barring a dud).

 

[Izayoi]

I hope it's false as well but in regards to the bold statement above, I'd venture a guess that a vast majority of people who own a console couldn't do that.

Most people who own a console couldn't install one game?

Okay.

 

[StevieP]

+1. Let Retro run wild on what they envision as the future of the online shooter.

I realize there's a vocal minority here that hates the genre, but it's the #1 genre in the US and it's the genre that moves systems. I wanna see they create a tech heavy engine that pushes boundaries in not only graphics, but gameplay.

You realize that there are games that sold more than BLOPS this gen, right?

You should have a race. Run those computers solely on SD memory and see how long those live. Something tells me the HD is gonna win (barring a dud).

You made your own point. Duds happen far more frequently on HDs and because they include moving parts can fail for a variety of reasons. Flash memory is more consistent in nature. And, in the case of SD/HC/XC easily and cheaply replaceable.

 

[Krowley]

You should have a race. Run those computers solely on SD memory and see how long those live. Something tells me the HD is gonna win (barring a dud).

Maybe so, but that is assuming normal use. Nintendo will probably be thinking about worst case scenarios... Like a wild and crazy 8 year old with a tendency to throw his consoles when he gets mad. In that environment, obviously any console is in great peril, but fewer moving parts would usually be better.

Not saying I totally agree with them, but that's how they think.

It could really hurt with MMOs though. I guess they could have freaky cloud based mmos or something like that.

 

[mj1108]

I wonder if Nintendo would have the balls to go SSD for storage instead of a hard drive.... I'm guessing not because of price but I would think they could get a hell of a price on them.

 

[1-D_FTW]

You realize that there are games that sold more than BLOPS this gen, right?



You made your own point. Duds happen far more frequently on HDs and because they include moving parts can fail for a variety of reasons. Flash memory is more consistent in nature. And, in the case of SD/HC/XC easily and cheaply replaceable.

I didn't make any point. I've never had a single hard drive failure (I've had to download software to nuke hard drive data because they were so old they needed to be discarded). Nor any computer that I'm the defacto care taker of. I really don't know WTF you people do to your computers to have so many failures, but if you abuse them that badly, an SD card is going to have abnormal failure rates too.

As for the first point? Really? Mario outsold BLOPS? Brain Training outsold BLOPS? What's your point? Nintendo of Japan is already making these games. They don't need Retro wasted on redundancy. FPS moves systems in the US. Nintendo has absolutely NOTHING in this genre. They need a flagship title in this genre that is exclusive and excites people. EAD ain't gonna give people that.

 

[wsippel]

You should have a race. Run those computers solely on SD memory and see how long those live. Something tells me the HD is gonna win (barring a dud).

A console isn't a PC, though. There's lots of reading and very little writing. Reading doesn't tax SD cards at all - unlike hard disks.

 

[Oni Link 666]

I really don't want to see Retro do Eternal Darkness. I want to see them either do something original or work on an established Nintendo franchise like Metroid, DK, Zelda, ect. Also, I don't want to see anyone other than Silicon Knights make Eternal Darkness. That's like the whole Legacy of Kain thing all over again. It probably wouldn't be anything like what SK would do if someone else did it.

 

[Blueblur1]

I'm gonna have to agree with Amir0x.

No HDD made no sense even in 2006 much less now. If I have to deal with any refrigerator scenarios, I'll skip Cafe and save my money for the next console that's available.

 

[Instro]

I wonder if Nintendo would have the balls to go SSD for storage instead of a hard drive.... I'm guessing not because of price but I would think they could get a hell of a price on them.

Well Id imagine by the time the Cafe is being released a company like Nintendo would be able to get 64GB SSDs relatively cheap. Regardless of whether its a regular HDD or SSD, it would have to be an additional addon, theres no real need to make it internal since selling them separately allows the console itself to be cheaper.

 

[chaosblade]

I am experiencing a HDD failure right now. I just got it in January and have used it for my backups, yesterday it started clicking and today it's gone.

Anyway, a single SKU with 8GB flash built in and an optional HDD peripheral is probably the way Nintendo will go. I mean, look at the money Microsoft makes on those overpriced 360 hard drives, surely Nintendo wants in on that.

 

[From The Dust]

how fucking irresponsible do you have to be to break a HDD?

I've never had one HDD failure in my entire history of using PCs and consoles.

if you keep fucking your computer, then it will eventual break. but I suppose that's obvious

 

[H_Prestige]

I am experiencing a HDD failure right now. I just got it in January and have used it for my backups, yesterday it started clicking and today it's gone.

Anyway, a single SKU with 8GB flash built in and an optional HDD peripheral is probably the way Nintendo will go. I mean, look at the money Microsoft makes on those overpriced 360 hard drives, surely Nintendo wants in on that.

No HDD also saves them a lot of money on manufacturing. Nintendo loves that.

 

[Grampa Simpson]

You should have a race. Run those computers solely on SD memory and see how long those live. Something tells me the HD is gonna win (barring a dud).

An SD card is a bad choice for any system that's expecting constant writes or rewrites. Additionally entire filesystems have been written in order to facilitate spreading out writes across flash. NTFS and FAT are not among them. Most File Systems aren't. A console that only writes to flash to update firmware and save games (no caching, no /var/log/messages, no /var/tmp) that's running a FlashFS is likely going to last a long time.

 

[udivision]

Really? Mario Kart Wii was one of the few Wii titles to have decent online.

This man the speaks the truth. If Smash's online was anywhere as good as Mario Kart's, I'd still be playing Smash and not trying to get 9999 VR in MKWii.

 

[NotGameboy]

Really? Mario Kart Wii was one of the few Wii titles to have decent online.

Decent? Right.

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Press OK.
Vote/Random stage.
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Waiting for everyone to vote.
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Race.

 

[Amir0x]

That's just good luck, and about as precise an assessment of their reliability as saying that PS2s were super reliable just because someone somewhere still has a launch unit working.

I'm just saying, it's not a common thing for a HDD to break and using that as an excuse for Nintendo to be assbackwards is just comically reaching.

Here's a question Amir0x: Suppose like the 3DS, the 8GB internal storage is only for built-in system software/firmware, and you can run the rest off directly through an SD card. Would it be bad at all? You might say 32GB is still too small, but what I'm waiting to here is SDXC compatibility, which is actually not far fetched and feasable.

Yes, it'd be a fucking disaster. I cannot believe in 2011 we're having this debate. No matter where we go, no matter how ridiculous Nintendo acts, someone will find a way to find an excuse or a defense of the matter.

"Well, we can always do that. It's acceptable, right? I mean, who cares that their are more cheaper and faster alternatives that their competitors are competent enough to use, Nintendo exists in a vacuum and are totally allowed to be retards!"

 

[Ridley327]

I'm just saying, it's not a common thing for a HDD to break and using that as an excuse for Nintendo to be assbackwards is just comically reaching.

Knowing their previous history with tech that requires moving parts, this is likely Nintendo's own excuse as well!

 

[Instro]

I'm just saying, it's not a common thing for a HDD to break and using that as an excuse for Nintendo to be assbackwards is just comically reaching.

Well its a good excuse to make the HDD external anyway.

 

[Grampa Simpson]

Well its a good excuse to make the HDD external anyway.

Or optional. Doesn't need to be external, just easily replaceable.

 

[Amir0x]

Or optional. Doesn't need to be external, just easily replaceable.

Exactly. Of course the HDD should be removable and replaceable.

 

[Krowley]

Knowing their previous history with tech that requires moving parts, this is likely Nintendo's own excuse as well!

Exactly. I'm not necessarily saying it's right, but that is probably what they're thinking.

Also, I am shocked at the number of people claiming they've never had an HDD go. In my experience, it's not all that uncommon. Not something that happens all the time, but not a bizarre occurrence.

 

[AceBandage]

I've never had a HDD go...
LCD screens on the other hand....

 

[Amir0x]

Exactly. I'm not necessarily saying it's right, but that is probably what they're thinking.

Also, I am shocked at the number of people claiming they've never had an HDD go. In my experience, it's not all that uncommon. Not something that happens all the time, but not a bizarre occurrence.

It's uncommon, and I've heard of it happening, but generally it tends to go out over the number of years in use rather than just randomly breaking.

Although, just buy a better brand and I'm sure even that problem would be reduced. Right now my PC is using 4 HDDs, and 1 of them is from a PC that is 7 years old and one of them is from a PC that is 10 years old.

I've had 16 PCs in my life and not once have I had a HDD even act up, let alone break. They've been from all different brands and companies. I'm just sayin', it's not near common enough to force a system to be designed in an inferior fashion.

If the HDD had a failure rate of more than 5%, it might be worth including some flash memory, but it would never be worth using flash memory and SD card transfer as a REPLACEMENT for HDD. Nintendo better get their cards in order especially if this is supposed to be a "social" platform.

 

[Instro]

Or optional. Doesn't need to be external, just easily replaceable.

That works too.

 

[Ridley327]

I'll be fine with the decision to not include a HDD as long as they allow me to my own external storage to make up for it. They will be stinky fartfaces if they don't and I'm limited to slow-ass and spendy SD cards.