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[racerx]

Sony will have no choice but to restore other OS support. They seem to have no idea how many laws the removal of features is. If you buy something that can do *insert thing it can do here* that suddenly cannot do *insert thing here* then it is a faulty product and the customer is entitled to a replacement.

They got away with it when they took backwards compatibility away as they advertised it as a new model that did not have this feature. Same applies to the new slim PS3 with other OS support being removed, they advertised it as not having it so it is allowed. The device the customer bought still retains all the functionality the customer paid for.


In short, we paid for other OS support which is why removing it is illegal.

But no one is forcing you to remove it. PSN access is conditional. Playing 3.21+ firmware games are conditional.

Adobe photoshop cs4 requires windows xp service pack 2. Can people sue adobe for not providing workable binaries for windows xp w/ no service pack? I don't think so.

 

[Zoe]

So does this update install automatically on slims or something? I've checked every possibility and there's no way anyone has touched my console for three days. Unless someone broke into my home during the four hours I was at school today and installed the update without stealing the PS3 afterwards I have no explanation.

Are you positive it updated? Did you look at your system version?

 

[RedNumberFive]

Be realistic. What percentage of the PS3 userbase do you think regularly use their PS3s for Linux? And I don't mean the people who install it once, say "that's neat", and then delete it.

Let's say, for example, you could run Windows on a PS3. That would be neat as well, but who is going to use a machine with 256 megs of RAM for any type of modern app? Like Linux, these people will still just continue to use their laptops/desktops to run Windows on.

I'm not entirely unsympathetic here. If you use your PS3 as even a semi-full time Linux box, I feel for you. But it's just not a feature that makes a whole lot of sense for Sony to keep maintaining.

I agree with you on pretty much every point here, but there ARE people that use it for research, personal use, and hell, just to experiment with Linux. I'd argue that the people who use the media streaming are in the minority as well, but even though I rarely use it, and think that other devices that I own do a far better job, I would be just as upset if it was removed as well. Just because it's an oft used feature, doesn't justify the action of removing it. Regardless, I'll likely wipe out my partition tonight, and update my console, because I'm damned if I do, and damned if I don't. But like a previous poster said, this sets a bad prescedent for future actions.

 

[onken]

I'm not entirely unsympathetic here. If you use your PS3 as even a semi-full time Linux box, I feel for you. But it's just not a feature that makes a whole lot of sense for Sony to keep maintaining.

It can't be that expensive to maintain. Sure, maybe it's costing them more than they originally anticipated, but you know what? Tough shit, they made the commitment and they should stand by it.

 

[T.M. MacReady]

Adobe photoshop cs4 requires windows xp service pack 2. Can people sue adobe for not providing workable binaries for windows xp w/ no service pack? I don't think so.

Perfect.

 

[Speevy]

It can't be that expensive to maintain. Sure, maybe it's costing them more than they originally anticipated, but you know what? Tough shit, they made the commitment and they should stand by it.

Everything you just said holds true for backwards compatibility, yet here we are.

 

[Rapstah]

Are you positive it updated? Did you look at your system version?

Searching for updates says there are no updates and System Information claims 3.21. I obviously don't have the Linux options either but I have a Slim anyway.

 

[Kalren]

Adobe photoshop cs4 requires windows xp service pack 2. Can people sue adobe for not providing workable binaries for windows xp w/ no service pack? I don't think so.

Photoshop does not go through an approval process with Microsoft to run on Windows.

Also, when the consumers bought their PS3s, nothing explicitly said that PSN access would be required for future titles.

Simply amending the EULA doesn't afford companies the protection you think it does.

 

[Megadragon15]

Searching for updates says there are no updates and System Information claims 3.21. I obviously don't have the Linux options either but I have a Slim anyway.

Maybe a friend, family member, roommate, etc. used it without your permission.

 

[onken]

Everything you just said holds true for backwards compatibility, yet here we are.

Yeah well they shouldn't have cut BC either?

 

[RedNumberFive]

But no one is forcing you to remove it. PSN access is conditional. Playing 3.21+ firmware games are conditional.

Adobe photoshop cs4 requires windows xp service pack 2. Can people sue adobe for not providing workable binaries for windows xp w/ no service pack? I don't think so.

For someone who seems keen on pointing out what you see as bad analogies, your Photoshop example may take the cake!

 

[AzureNightmare]

remember folks, just because its in the EULA doesn't automatically make it one of their legal rights. Something tells me that stripping out originally promised functionality is a lawsuit waiting to happen.

But no one is forcing you to remove it. PSN access is conditional. Playing 3.21+ firmware games are conditional.

Adobe photoshop cs4 requires windows xp service pack 2. Can people sue adobe for not providing workable binaries for windows xp w/ no service pack? I don't think so.

Its hilarious how you would willingly defend a company that is actively trying to strip you of your rights as a consumer (in this case: access to the one of the originally advertised functions of the PS3). You need to pull back a bit and take a look at what's really happening because all Sony's doing is bending you over and you're defending them for it, which makes you look like a complete doofus.

 

[Treo360]

Never thought I'd do this but, I just shelved my 20gb launch unit and bought a slim in hopes that there will be a market for launch units with Linux and BC compatibility.

 

[Version 3.0]

Were they also fucking us over when they improved bunch of stuff via firmware for free. Or if you take one away and we then forget of all the improvement PS3/PSN got since launch for free.

Well, they added trophies, so yes, they were fucking us over.

To those of you going on about EULAs: those aren't binding much of the time. Read the whole thing sometime, and you'll find some nice lines in there that say, in a nutshell, "this entire EULA is subject to regional laws, and anything in here that is prohibited by law where you live doesn't apply". Believe me, there is a great deal of stuff in all EULA's that doesn't apply in most places, because consumer rights laws override it.

 

[racerx]

Photoshop does not go through an approval process with Microsoft to run on Windows.

That is why I mentioned adobe and not MS in the hypothetical lawsuit. But MS does have a software certification program.

Also, when the consumers bought their PS3s, nothing explicitly said that PSN access would be required for future titles.

huh? When does one need psn access for playing ps3 games?

For someone who seems keen on pointing out what you see as bad analogies, your Photoshop example may take the cake!

well, help me. Why is the analogy non-workable?

3.21+ firmware requiring games = adobe photoshop cs4 requiring windows xp w/ sp2

firmware 3.15 = windows xp w/ no sp

 

[RoninChaos]

But no one is forcing you to remove it. PSN access is conditional. Playing 3.21+ firmware games are conditional.

Adobe photoshop cs4 requires windows xp service pack 2. Can people sue adobe for not providing workable binaries for windows xp w/ no service pack? I don't think so.

Jesus, are you still trying to argue all these random points you have? It's obvious you have no intention of seeing things any other way but your's. Just move on.

 

[AzureNightmare]

That is why I mentioned adobe and not MS in the hypothetical lawsuit. But MS does have a software certification program.



huh? When does one need psn access for playing ps3 games?



well, help me. Why is the analogy non-workable?

3.21+ firmware requiring games = adobe photoshop cs4 requiring windows xp w/ sp2

firmware 3.15 = windows xp w/ no sp

 

[jepjepjep]

Adobe photoshop cs4 requires windows xp service pack 2. Can people sue adobe for not providing workable binaries for windows xp w/ no service pack? I don't think so.

I don't think this analogy is quite right. Service pack 2 didn't remove an advertised feature of windows xp.

While it's true that the linux feature is unimportant to a lot of people, it was clearly advertised for the original models and is important to some. This move really sucks and I hope Sony is legally forced into putting linux back in (Not just some class-action $10 voucher).

 

[racerx]

HAHA. Good picture. But I guess no one has responded as to why the analogy doesn't work so people are responding the only way they can. wah wah wah.

 

[jepjepjep]

huh? When does one need psn access for playing ps3 games?

Two examples that immediately come to mind are Warhawk and MAG. Both are retail disc releases that require PSN access.

 

[Kalren]

That is why I mentioned adobe and not MS in the hypothetical lawsuit. But MS does have a software certification program.

What I was getting at is that Adobe is the one who defines their platform and not Microsoft. The requirements are labeled on the exterior of the software.

huh? When does one need psn access for playing ps3 games?

I guess I should rephrase that as games requiring 3.21+ firmware.

 

[Version 3.0]

well, help me. Why is the analogy non-workable?

3.21+ firmware requiring games = adobe photoshop cs4 requiring windows xp w/ sp2

firmware 3.15 = windows xp w/ no sp

Which advertised functionality does Windows SP2 remove? Sorry if I missed it, this thread is still moving pretty fast for me to read at work.

 

[RedNumberFive]

huh? When does one need psn access for playing ps3 games?

The majority of my current games all but require an online connection. Hell some of them even ship broken and require a day one patch to even function.

well, help me. Why is the analogy non-workable?

3.21+ firmware requiring games = adobe photoshop cs4 requiring windows xp w/ sp2

firmware 3.15 = windows xp w/ no sp

Because every single thing that I was doing in XP prior to service pack 2 would still work if I didn't do the upgrade. Unlike the PS3, in which a significant amount of features would not work if I didn't upgrade.

 

[railGUN]

But no one is forcing you to remove it. PSN access is conditional. Playing 3.21+ firmware games are conditional.

Adobe photoshop cs4 requires windows xp service pack 2. Can people sue adobe for not providing workable binaries for windows xp w/ no service pack? I don't think so.

Were you able to buy PS CS4 that work on systems with no service pack for like a couple years, then one day, Adobe said "You can stay with no service pack, and use PS, but not Illustrator or After Effects, or you can upgrade to service pack 2 and use Ill and AE, but PS won't work (oh, and you won't get any upgrades for your PS either)."

I'm confused how this analogy works... ?

 

[Yagharek]

When I bought my launch ps3 I was told it could run linux and connect to psn. Note the 'and'.

No amount of eula retcon can change the fact that consumers have been lied to here.

I dont use linux on ps3 but I damn well agree with the people who do use it and are annoyed over this move.
Of course I see no need to update now and not because of this firmware, but rather because nothing on psn of any worth to me has come out lately and why should I waste bandwidth on a downgrade?

Now I wonder when they will remove my systems bc capability and ability to play region free bluray discs.

 

[racerx]

Which advertised functionality does Windows SP2 remove? Sorry if I missed it, this thread is still moving pretty fast for me to read at work.

So, you're saying all service packs never break previous functionality?
Google around, service pack 2 removed support for raw sockets. OS X Tiger removed support for new world ROMS - whatever that is.

Were you able to buy PS CS4 that work on systems with no service pack for like a couple years, then one day, Adobe said "You can stay with no service pack, and use PS, but not Illustrator or After Effects, or you can upgrade to service pack 2 and use Ill and AE, but PS won't work (oh, and you won't get any upgrades for your PS either)."

I'm confused how this analogy works... ?

I don't know. But I bet you were able to buy cs3 on xp w/ no sp.
cs3 = games requiring version < 3.21

Two examples that immediately come to mind are Warhawk and MAG. Both are retail disc releases that require PSN access.

Yes, I see, but those games advertise that they require the network.

 

[Synless]

Two examples that immediately come to mind are Warhawk and MAG. Both are retail disc releases that require PSN access.

Gran Turismo 5: Prologue does as well. The psn version does anyway.

 

[Inanna]

Kevin Butler VP of removing features.

Features that majority of the user base does not even use.

 

[RedNumberFive]

So, you're saying all service packs never break previous functionality?
Google around, service pack 2 removed support for raw sockets. OS X Tiger removed support for new world ROMS - whatever that is.

Again, that doesn't back up your point. Going to service pack 2 is an optional choice. Your web browser, online games, AIM, etc don't suddenly stop working if you choose not to upgrade. My PS3, on the other hand, is nearly crippled if I refuse the choice.

 

[racerx]

Again, that doesn't back up your point. Going to service pack 2 is an optional choice. Your web browser, online games, AIM, etc don't suddenly stop working if you choose not to upgrade. My PS3, on the other hand, is nearly crippled if I refuse the choice.

How is it crippled? You just can't play new software. There are hundreds of games you could still play. Hundred of movies you could still watch. And who is to judge whether new world roms or raw socket support isn't crippling to certain users?

 

[railGUN]

How is it crippled? You just can't play new software. There are hundreds of games you could still play. Hundred of movies you could still watch. And who is to judge whether new world roms or raw socket support isn't crippling to certain users?

:lol


quote of the day

edit: misinformed, since you can't watch new blurays, or go online either, but still :lol

 

[ymmv]

Again, that doesn't back up your point. Going to service pack 2 is an optional choice. Your web browser, online games, AIM, etc don't suddenly stop working if you choose not to upgrade. My PS3, on the other hand, is nearly crippled if I refuse the choice.

In that case accept the fact that Linux on the PS3 is gone and enjoy the games and the Blu-Ray movies instead of going on about a feature 99.99% of all PS3 users really didn't care about. If you still feel so butt hurt about losing Linux, maybe you shouldn't have bought a PS3 but a PC or a laptop.

 

[RedNumberFive]

How is it crippled? You just can't play new software. There are hundreds of games you could still play. Hundred of movies you could still watch. And who is to judge whether new world roms or raw socket support isn't crippling to certain users?

I can count a good many games in my collection alone that have day one patches in order to function. New world roms and raw socket support may be crippling to some, but in your example that is only AFTER they update the service pack.

Keep working on that analogy though!

Regardless, it's time to leave the office, forget about firmware, and enjoy this weather. We can resume this arguement later tonight!

 

[railGUN]

In that case accept the fact that Linux on the PS3 is gone and enjoy the games and the Blu-Ray movies instead of going on about a feature 99.99% of all PS3 users really didn't care about. If you still feel so butt hurt about losing Linux, maybe you shouldn't have bought a PS3 but a PC or a laptop.

This you your fault Mr. Consumer... Not ours!

 

[hey_it's_that_dog]

How is it crippled? You just can't play new software. There are hundreds of games you could still play. Hundred of movies you could still watch. And who is to judge whether new world roms or raw socket support isn't crippling to certain users?

Or use the PSN. It's one thing to debate whether anyone should give a shit about losing Linux, but quite another to say that suddenly not being able to use PSN or play new games isn't crippling. When people bought the PS3, it was with the (100% reasonable) expectation that they'd be able to play every PS3 game from launch until the system is no longer supported.

 

[RedNumberFive]

In that case accept the fact that Linux on the PS3 is gone and enjoy the games and the Blu-Ray movies instead of going on about a feature 99.99% of all PS3 users really didn't care about. If you still feel so butt hurt about losing Linux, maybe you shouldn't have bought a PS3 but a PC or a laptop.

My bad for thinking an advertised feature would actually be, well, a working feature.

 

[NeoUltima]

Also, when the consumers bought their PS3s, nothing explicitly said that PSN access would be required for future titles.

Games that require future firmwares will have the firmwares on the disc. You don't need psn access.

 

[ymmv]

My bad for thinking an advertised feature would actually be, well, a working feature.

You win some, you lose some.

There are tons of software products that lose features with new updates. Nothing new. As I said the vast majority of PS3 owners couldn't give a damn. It's only a small but very vocal minority that keeps going about this. Give it up, guys.

 

[Mudkips]

But no one is forcing you to remove it. PSN access is conditional. Playing 3.21+ firmware games are conditional.

Adobe photoshop cs4 requires windows xp service pack 2. Can people sue adobe for not providing workable binaries for windows xp w/ no service pack? I don't think so.

Are you fucking retarded? MS didn't launch XP and say "Windows XP will run Photoshop CS4!" Adobe DID specifically say you NEED SP2 to run CS4. And they are mutually exclusive companies and have no control over each others' development.

This is the same as MS releasing Windows and saying it plays games and runs Office.
Then deciding to force you to have SP2 to play future games.
And making SP2 disable Office.

Do you get it yet? It's fucking retarded and illegal.

 

[Kalren]

You win some, you lose some.

There are tons of software products that lose features with new updates. Nothing new. As I said the vast majority of PS3 owners couldn't give a damn. It's only a small but very vocal minority that keeps going about this. Give it up, guys.

So it's reasonable to say goodbye to the Other OS because Sony says so?

What if 2 months from now they find that Backwards Compatibility can be used to hack into the system?

If Sony got away with removing a feature the first time with only a small small group complaining, why wouldn't they do the same with BC?

It's too easy to say "well it doesn't affect me so I don't care" but it just as easy for companies to treat consumers as dirt and make arbitrary changes whenever they feel like it.

 

[jepjepjep]

Yes, I see, but those games advertise that they require the network.

PSN was an advertised feature as well.

I bought a retail disc of Warhawk right after I bought my original model PS3 and installed linux on it.

This firmware update removes an advertised feature, either the linux operating system if I install the update, or PSN access if I don't install it, which renders several purchases of mine completely unusable.

This update sucks, no way around it. And those of you that try to justify it suck too.

 

[ymmv]

Are you fucking retarded? MS didn't launch XP and say "Windows XP will run Photoshop CS4!" Adobe DID specifically say you NEED SP2 to run CS4. And they are mutually exclusive companies and have no control over each others' development.

This is the same as MS releasing Windows and saying it plays games and runs Office.
Then deciding to force you to have SP2 to play future games.
And making SP2 disable Office.

Do you get it yet? It's fucking retarded and illegal.

This is not about a hypothetical example about XP and Office, this about a PS3, a games console, and Sony removing a sporadically used feature that has nothing to do with the core functionality of the PS3 which is playing games and watching movies. I would feel the same if Sony found a security flaw in the Folding@home app and instead of fixing it simply removed it in a future OS update.

 

[Kittonwy]

So it's reasonable to say goodbye to the Other OS because Sony says so?

What if 2 months from now they find that Backwards Compatibility can be used to hack into the system?

If Sony got away with removing a feature the first time with only a small small group complaining, why wouldn't they do the same with BC?

It's too easy to say "well it doesn't affect me so I don't care" but it just as easy for companies to treat consumers as dirt and make arbitrary changes whenever they feel like it.

If it violates your "principles" then don't update, or sell your PS3, or sue, or all three.

It's not a matter of "Sony says so", the reality is the impact of this update on the userbase is minimal because very few people actually use this feature, as a user I don't want the system hacked, period.

 

[racerx]

Are you fucking retarded? MS didn't launch XP and say "Windows XP will run Photoshop CS4!" Adobe DID specifically say you NEED SP2 to run CS4. And they are mutually exclusive companies and have no control over each others' development.

This is the same as MS releasing Windows and saying it plays games and runs Office.
Then deciding to force you to have SP2 to play future games.
And making SP2 disable Office.

Do you get it yet? It's fucking retarded and illegal.

oooh. Emotions are running. I just hope no one ends up getting heart attacks. I'm afraid to even reply. Just take it easy for the rest of the day bro.

 

[RoninChaos]

How is it crippled? You just can't play new software.

Jesus, man. Do you even read what you write? Stop being an idiot. Not being able to play new software IS crippling. It isn't on something like the super nintendo, which has no new software coming out, but making it to where no new games will play without a firm ware update IS crippling.

At this point you're obviously just trolling and arguing to argue. Nobody can be this stupid.

 

[patsu]

So does this update install automatically on slims or something? I've checked every possibility and there's no way anyone has touched my console for three days. Unless someone broke into my home during the four hours I was at school today and installed the update without stealing the PS3 afterwards I have no explanation.

Have you watched the movie, "Fight Club" ?

 

[jepjepjep]

. . . as a user I don't want the system hacked, period.

As a user, why should it make a difference to you (if not out of principle)? The PS1, PS2, DS have all been hacked and continued to have plenty of developer support.

 

[Mudkips]

This is not about a hypothetical example about XP and Office, this about a PS3, a games console, and Sony removing a sporadically used feature that has nothing to do with the core functionality of the PS3 which is playing games and watching movies. I would feel the same if Sony found a security flaw in the Folding@home app and instead of fixing it simply removed it in a future OS update.

MoronX brought up a shitty example and I provided a better one.
This is not about a sporadically used feature being removed, it's about an advertised feature being removed.

It's wrong, retarded, and illegal.

oooh. Emotions are running. I just hope no one ends up getting heart attacks. I'm afraid to even reply. Just take it easy for the rest of the day bro.

You trotted out your bullshit and asked for someone to correct it. I did.
So what do you have to hide behind now? Nothing? Fuck off.

 

[Version 3.0]

So, you're saying all service packs never break previous functionality?
Google around, service pack 2 removed support for raw sockets. OS X Tiger removed support for new world ROMS - whatever that is.

First of all, I said advertised functionality. I doubt anyone would complain much if Sony removed support for animated .gifs, since they never promised such a feature in the first place. Nintendo removed .mp3 support from the Wii, and it wasn't a big deal. It was lame, but they didn't advertise the Wii as an mp3 player, did they?

Secondly, sure, plenty of updates break things. That's not the same as intentionally disabling them. Things that get broken are usually dealt with by applying another update.

 

[BocoDragon]

Have you watched the movie, "Fight Club" ?

So his alternate personality, Tyler Durden, is downloading this firmware without his knowledge as an ode to destruction??