Hesemonni
Banned
It's weird how silent it's been on this front lately. It's as if Sony ninjas have accomplished their dark work :/
This.
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PS4K information (~2x GPU power w/ clock+, new CPU, price, tent. Q1 2017)
- Thread starter OsirisBlack
- Start date
Raiden1018
Banned
Where do we sit on the spec rumors? Im seeing 5TFLOPS and Im seeing 4.2.
Omnistalgic
Member
It's 4.2 if no changes occurred.
There was a more powerful version no one knows if they changed
The Last Wizard
Member
Yup. I feel the same way about Scorpio and NX, NX more so.
PeterLegend
Member
Im hoping for 5 teraflops, id pay 445 for that
If its 4.2 teraflops id pay 399
If its 4.2 teraflops id pay 399
Darklor01
Might need to stop sniffing glue
I mostly agree with you. I can't see Jumping to Scorpio unless you don't have a Decent PC. Especially if PC can play all MS exclusives. That is, unless you want a UHD Blu Ray player and if it's included in Scorpio and if you aren't buying a Neo or separate player.
I'm not sure this iterative release stuff won't backfire in general. Yes, it's roughly the same cost as iterative upgrades to an already build PC rig, but it is a bit of a different animal which I think leaves a sour taste in people's mouths even if they're not forced into anything. I think there's just this feeling that stuff you "just bought" is already outdated. Gives you that left behind feeling if you don't upgrade. Speaking for myself of course on that. I don't like that. On PC, its a personal, customizable box, and while the parts are soon dated by another part release, I don't think that same feeling is there.
dr_rus
Member
I believe the words you're looking for is "resolution reconstruction" which is basically a more complex upscaling involving MSAA and temporal sampling. "Up-rendering" sounds like something is being rendered up instead of being rendered otherwise.
I'm just hoping that Sony finally lays out their plans for what the Neo means for their console release cycle, cause I'm tired of all the back and forth of people outright stating that they are or are not doing the same thing as MS (FC when the PS5 releases).
But I fear that may not get properly addressed until the PS5 reveal.
sigh...
The funny thing about people wanting lower resolutions with better graphics over having 4K resolutions is that they can't see that checkerboard rendering will enable the better graphics while also giving you a cheaper 4K solution.
My thoughts is that 4k from checkerboard rendering will look better than 1440P at PS4 graphic level & 4K at below PS4 graphic level.
In the end it's going to be 4K games that look better than the 1080p PS4 games.
My thoughts is that 4k from checkerboard rendering will look better than 1440P at PS4 graphic level & 4K at below PS4 graphic level.
In the end it's going to be 4K games that look better than the 1080p PS4 games.
It's only funny if you don't actually look at the computational cost. Checkerboard rendering at native 4K resolutions requires twice as many shaded pixels as 1080p plus the overhead of reconstructing the remaining pixels which, while cheaper, isn't free. The GPU looks to have sufficient computational capability to make this happen, but memory bandwidth is likely to be a bigger constraint.
Let's assume for the sake of argument that GCN 1.4 efficiency improvements make it feasible, which is far from clear, you've still dedicated all of your additional hardware resources to improving resolution. What about HDR? Wide color gamut? Draw distance? Frame rate? Improved materials shading? Better shadows and lighting? If I'm patching an existing title I may not be revisiting all these questions, but if I'm writing a new title with Neo in mind it's far from clear that resolution will be the only improvement I have in mind.
i think that a significantly higher percentage of gamers will be using the Neo on a 1080p set...and will see very little benefit from any sort of 4k resolution...in addition to that, in side by side comparisons most people are going to notice effects, shadows, AA, lighting, textures, draw distances, etc...before they notice the difference in resolution...
because the Neo isnt powerful enough for native 4k...and we're going to be looing at FauxK for the most part, i feel the power is much better used on eye candy/framerate improvements at 1080p, or 1440p then it would be on pushing for 4k with other graphical settings closer to normal PS4 levels...
BigEmil
Junior Member
Hopefully they focus less on 4k and more on 1080p with better visuals or fps. Not gonna buy a 4k tv till 2020 where prices will reach standard and the tech within the TV will be good standard with decent input lag.
They can focus more on 4k on the next console after NEO if they want, it's still too early now.
They can focus more on 4k on the next console after NEO if they want, it's still too early now.
2blackcats
Member
So tech heads, what's the likely solution for 1080p TVs? Will these 1800p - 4k resolutions be down sampled (down rendered =) )? Is that computationally expensive? Or will the image just be passed through to 1080p with no resampling and thus no benefits?
would love to see proper downsampling, or better framerates, or both on 1080p sets, but its really impossible to say...i hope Sony addresses this in September
Sushen
Member
I guess you haven't bought a smart phone for years? Most electronics are updated annually and peoples are used to it.
2blackcats
Member
So do I.
When people hook their gaming PCs up to the their living room 1080p TVs how does the downsampling work? Does it require a load of graphic card power?
The rendering will be done by the console. You don't need a 4K TV.
If a game internally renders at 1440p or 1800p, or 4K, you'll still see huge down sampling benefits at 1080p.
I'm not sure why so many people have a hard time understanding rendering methods, either people think the system literally won't work on anything but a 4K TV, or the game's will look exactly the same as PS4 regardless of IQ or fidelity improvements.
How does that make any sense as a product?
Lagspike_exe
Member
On a PC you can choose to play at 1080p and not downsample at all, if you prefer higher/more stable FPS or some highly demanding effects (Hairworks, for example).
For downsampling, you can use Nvidia's DSR for example.
I really doubt we'll see two performance profiles for Neo (1080p/4K). That would be 3 performance profiles in total (PS4 baseline, Neo 1080p, Neo 4K). I think pure downsampling is most probable and in general it should produce a significant IQ boost. 3200x1800 to Full HD is really huge.
Marty Chinn
Member
Different market, different use behavior, and different expectation.
Post AA would typically be run in final resolution as well (so 4x more pixels to AA then 1080 in this example).Lady Gaia said:
I'd say chances are rather high it'll be left entirely up to developers, much like SDTV was last gen. Of course - motivation to increase quality/performance will be higher than it was then.Metfanant said:
2blackcats
Member
Thanks for the responses.
D
Deleted member 465307
Unconfirmed Member
Thanks for asking that question! I was wondering the exact same thing as someone who will probably not own a 4K TV for a looong time.
StrongBlackVine
Banned
Not for much longer.
A lot will come from having a new generation GPU that's not in the PS4 even before you look at the power difference & they could have changes to the hardware that basically make the final frame resolving free. Also as far as shadows & lighting go I would hope that they have improved the hardware to run the Enlighten middle ware better so that you're getting the better lighting & shadows cheaper .
Image quality matters also
Up to devs they can have one output frame ~4K & downsample for 1080P or they can have a 1080P & ~ 4K output frame & use the output that match your TV.
one could make the argument that a native 1080p image with some serious AA, great lighting, and high quality shadows/textures/other effects would produce better IQ than a reconstructed 4k image that could suffer from artifacts...
Napalm_Frank
Member
So any new rumours these past few weeks (after the whole Sony shaking in their boots because of Scorpio stuff)? I've been out of the loop.
PeterLegend
Member
All will be revealed on September 7th my son.
I'm talking about as far as 1080P TV owners benefiting from 4K games.
Counting on Secret Sauce of one kind or another for predictions hasn't generally worked out well in the past. I'm already counting on a non-trivial bandwidth win for GCN 1.4 as explicitly stated in the post you quoted.
... but there will definitely be some surprises along the way. Just over two weeks and counting until we get a pretty good idea of what's coming.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
Well, I do remember that post a couple of months ago by SneakersSO that said there was one surprise that hadn't gotten out. Can't wait to find out what that is.
Not Secret Sauce just hardware advances like HWS & quick response queue
-ImaginaryInsider
Member
I don't really subscribe to Sony shaking in their boots, but John Harker said there might be "some" truth to the Neo getting bump rumor. I'm pretty positive he's the one who hinted at BF1 settings like a year before anyone else.
Obviously no specifics, I'm sure if there is a bump, it's a modest one.
DangerMouse
Member
Yup, can't wait.
Depends on what you're actually looking for, yes all important details for Neo's imminent release will be told, but as for what the Neo means for their console cycle/release model (whether their next console will force FC etc), I have a bad feeling that's not going to get addressed at all and we have years of speculation ahead of us for that aspect until that console is revealed.
gundamkyoukai
Member
For stuff like that we will get better idea after a few months .
Of course that is if we can get some sales numbers just for Neo .
Nah, Sony already know what they're doing next gen.
This is obvious.
They certainly won't talk about the PS5 during the Neo presentation
And btw Sony so far has not abandoned traditional console life cycles in any way.
Neo is just a premium PS4 for them, just like the n3DS is a 3DS for Nintendo. With that in mind forward compatibility is really unlikely.
PS5 will likely be a totally new generation with its own identity and features.
By the way perpetual forward compatibility is just an illusion, at some point the oldest models will be dropped anyway to promote innovation, you can't be handicapped forever if you want to go forward. It's just a matter of time and sales.....if the new product is successful you'll see the old one being abandoned pretty quickly notwithstanding all the promises, viceversa if the novelty doesn't take off there is interest in keeping the old gen alive.
Freesync?
Ray-tracing co-processor?
I don't think the benefits of X86 will be supplanted by ARM in 3 years
dr_rus
Member
What benefits?
Yup.
Will be interesting to see cases where developers prepare 4k output with checkered rendering and similar and then downsample to 1080p
Image quality on some games should be very nice indeed.
Certainly would be fun to have implementation something similar to PowerVR Wizard family.
Might open interesting ways to bypass some limitations of rasterization. (Cheap OiT?)
I would have expected such a thing to be leaked by now though.
Yep & this would free up the GPU a lot because lighting , shadows , reflections & so on would be light work for a RTU.
Might not be a physical chip but just compute pipelines config for lighting engines.
30yearsofhurt
Member
You may not have noticed this but there are a shit-ton of games released for the machine in less than three years. Ease of development has paid off in spades for developers and consumers.
Kabuki Quantum Lover
Member
Nope. Sony will cheap out where they can (see: networking, ports, etc.).