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[Venom Fox]

Nope. Sony will cheap out where they can (see: networking, ports, etc.).

I hope not. If it's premium and they really want to push 4K then it'd be better to use the X1 or next version chip. Especially as Neo won't be pushing native 4K.

 

[kraspkibble]

I'm hoping it's 3.5" HDD support.

i hope it will actually support SSD's. mechanical hdd's are only good if you need the capacity. i'd much prefer having way faster boot up/load times than being able to store more games.

 

[Kyoufu]

i hope it will actually support SSD's. mechanical hdd's are only good if you need the capacity. i'd much prefer having way faster boot up/load times than being able to store more games.

PS4 already supports SSDs with faster loading times. I'd rather have 3.5" support so I can use a 4TB hybrid drive which is the middle ground between stock and solid state in terms of speed, but much, much cheaper.

SATA 3 would be nice though, yes.

 

[dr_rus]

You may not have noticed this but there are a shit-ton of games released for the machine in less than three years. Ease of development has paid off in spades for developers and consumers.

What's CPU's ISA have to do with ease of development? You seems to be confused as to what is actually providing the said "ease of development" but let me assure you that it has zero to do with x86 ISA.

The main benefit of staying with x86 is the same as it was with staying with Power, MIPS, etc. earlier - to keep binary compatibility for easy backwards compatibility with the software library of modern consoles. There are no other benefits of x86 over ARM which I can think of.

ARM on the other hand is more power efficient, it's a licensed IA meaning that anyone can build a SoC on it (so you're not linked for life to AMD or Intel), it is pretty much the de facto standard in mobile world meaning that there are loads of tools and people who know how to work with it. At this time ARM is pretty much an overall better choice for a console system than anything else.

 

[Lacix]

I'm hoping it's 3.5" HDD support.

Hoping for External HDD support for games like XBOX ONE.

 

[StereoVsn]

The main benefit of staying with x86 is the same as it was with staying with Power, MIPS, etc. earlier - to keep binary compatibility for easy backwards compatibility with the software library of modern consoles. There are no other benefits of x86 over ARM which I can think of.

ARM on the other hand is more power efficient, it's a licensed IA meaning that anyone can build a SoC on it (so you're not linked for life to AMD or Intel), it is pretty much the de facto standard in mobile world meaning that there are loads of tools and people who know how to work with it. At this time ARM is pretty much an overall better choice for a console system than anything else.

There is one other benefit which admittedly is improving fast with ARM based designs.

At this moment, x86 based APU designs are quite a bit more powerful. By the time Scorpio releases, they will be yet quite a bit more powerful again.

Now, Nvidia's X2 design will catch up a bit but will still be somewhat less powerful on the GPU front and significantly less powerful on the CPU front.

Now, what happens in 3-5 years, who knows. ARM is trying to move up the food chain and they have had some successes with server CPUs and are improving.

Edit: interestingly enough, ARM just announced updated server architecture offerings. It's mostly HPC targeted but it does show that ARM is driving hard to improve its CPU architecture.

 

[dr_rus]

There is one other benefit which admittedly is improving fast with ARM based designs.

At this moment, x86 based APU designs are quite a bit more powerful. By the time Scorpio releases, they will be yet quite a bit more powerful again.

Now, Nvidia's X2 design will catch up a bit but will still be somewhat less powerful on the GPU front and significantly less powerful on the CPU front.

Now, what happens in 3-5 years, who knows. ARM is trying to move up the food chain and they have had some successes with server CPUs and are improving.

Power of a SoC is limited by it's thermal envelope and nothing more. The reason you don't see ARM SoCs with as many flops as in XBO/PS4 ones is simple - most of them are made for a <10W mobile products, not a ~200W home console ones. In a similar thermal envelope an ARM+Pascal SoC (for example) would run circles around Jaguar+GCN one.

 

[Theonik]

I'm hoping it's 3.5" HDD support.

ARM on the other hand is more power efficient, it's a licensed IA meaning that anyone can build a SoC on it (so you're not linked for life to AMD or Intel), it is pretty much the de facto standard in mobile world meaning that there are loads of tools and people who know how to work with it. At this time ARM is pretty much an overall better choice for a console system than anything else.

It's also RISC which makes staying with it in the long run easier since you don't have a ballooning instruction set. PowerPC would have been good to keep if IBM hadn't lagged behind Intel for offering performance and efficiency improvements for their PC line.

There is one other benefit which admittedly is improving fast with ARM based designs.

At this moment, x86 based APU designs are quite a bit more powerful. By the time Scorpio releases, they will be yet quite a bit more powerful again.

Now, Nvidia's X2 design will catch up a bit but will still be somewhat less powerful on the GPU front and significantly less powerful on the CPU front.

Now, what happens in 3-5 years, who knows. ARM is trying to move up the food chain and they have had some successes with server CPUs and are improving.

Edit: interestingly enough, ARM just announced updated server architecture offerings. It's mostly HPC targeted but it does show that ARM is driving hard to improve its CPU architecture.

Current ARM designs are targeting small mobile TDPs but this isn't a restriction of the architecture itself. If people wanted PC ARM based cores ARM could provide them or they are free to license the architecture and have a go at it themselves. The reason people haven't really attempted this is that PC currently relies on binary compatibility with X86 which Intel and AMD are the sole licensors of so there isn't much of a market there to justify such costs. A console is different in that they don't have to support Windows and 20+ years of software. nVidia actually had a whack at this with the Shield TV though that wasn't going quite for Console formfactor/TDP.
E: Beaten.

 

[LurkFish17]

I don't really subscribe to Sony shaking in their boots, but John Harker said there might be "some" truth to the Neo getting bump rumor. I'm pretty positive he's the one who hinted at BF1 settings like a year before anyone else.

Obviously no specifics, I'm sure if there is a bump, it's a modest one.

Who is John harker?

 

[Hexa]

Do you think this may have something to do with Neo? It involves Cerny and based on development cycles was filed at about the right time.

http://appft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...&d=PG01&S1=Cerny.IN.&OS=Cerny.IN.&RS=Cerny.IN.

Inventors: Cerny; Mark Evan; (Los Angeles, CA) ; Simpson; David; (Los Angeles, CA)
Applicant:
Sony Computer Entertainment America LLC
San Mateo CA US
Family ID: 1000001364535
Appl. No.: 14/627988
Filed: February 20, 2015

An application runs at a first operating frequency if the application is designed for a current version of a system and runs at a second operating frequency if the application is designed for a prior version of the system that operates at a lower frequency than the first operating frequency. The second operating frequency may be higher than the operating frequency of the prior version of the system to account for differences in latency, throughput or other processing characteristics between the two systems. Software readable cycle counters are based on a spoof clock running at the operating frequency of the prior version of the system, rather than the true operating frequency. It is emphasized that this abstract is provided to comply with the rules requiring an abstract that will allow a searcher or other reader to quickly ascertain the subject matter of the technical disclosure. It is submitted with the understanding that it will not be used to interpret or limit the scope or meaning of the claims.

[0003] More powerful central processing units (CPUs), graphic processing units (GPUs) and accelerated processing units (APUs) may have higher latency, or latency characteristics that differ from less powerful components. For example, a more powerful GPU may have more stages in its texture pipeline when compared to a less powerful GPU. In such a case, the latency of this pipeline increases. In another example, a more powerful APU may contain a L3 cache for the CPU, compared to a less powerful APU that did not have such a cache. In such a case, the memory latency characteristics differ as the time needed to access data that misses all caches increases for the more powerful APU, but average latency will decrease for the more powerful APU.

[0004] The more powerful device and the less powerful device may be able to perform the same processing (e.g., execution of program instructions on the CPU or various programmatic and fixed function operations on the GPU), but differences in latency of this processing may cause the more powerful device to fail to be backwards compatible with respect to the less powerful device. Similarly, there may be differences in speed or throughput of the processing that cause the more powerful device to fail to be backwards compatible. For example, for certain types of processing, the more powerful device may be able to perform more iterations of the processing within the same time interval. Alternatively, the more powerful device could perform the processing using different algorithms that result in behavior that is faster or slower than the less powerful device, depending on the circumstance.

[0005] In the case of video game consoles, the operation is typically at a set clock frequency, and the software applications are tested for proper operation at this set frequency. Sometimes, it is desirable to run applications created for the original, less powerful console on a more powerful console. This ability is often referred to as "backward compatibility". In such cases, it is desirable for the more powerful device to be able to run the application created for the less powerful device without detrimental effects of differences in latency or processing speed.

[0011] Several methods may be used for running applications created for the less powerful console on the more powerful console. In one example, the more powerful console may be set to run at the frequency of the original console. At this frequency setting, the operation of the more powerful console will vary based on the specific processing being performed at any instant of time, and may be slower or faster than the less powerful console due to the latency (and other) characteristics of that specific processing being performed. When the operation of the more powerful console is slower than the original console, many errors in the application may arise due to the inability to meet real time deadlines imposed by display timing, audio streamout or the like.

That would further lend credence to the Neo limiting the clock for BC. I also feel that that probably means that we won't see any benefits from the new architecture either.

 

[Plinko]

Who is John harker?

Insider with track record who posts on GAF.

 

[Deku Tree]

Zhuge said that gamespot confirmed the Neo will be at the Sony press conference?

 

[RoboPlato]

Do you think this may have something to do with Neo? It involves Cerny and based on development cycles was filed at about the right time.

http://appft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...&d=PG01&S1=Cerny.IN.&OS=Cerny.IN.&RS=Cerny.IN.











That would further lend credence to the Neo limiting the clock for BC. I also feel that that probably means that we won't see any benefits from the new architecture either.

I would be shocked if it wasn't for Neo. Sounds exactly like the base mode/Neo mode documentation.

 

[robertsan21]

I would be shocked if it wasn't for Neo. Sounds exactly like the base mode/Neo mode documentation.

1. A method, comprising: a) determining whether an application loaded on a current version of a system is for the current version of a system or a less powerful version of the system, wherein the current version of the system is characterized by a standard operating frequency; b) miming the application on a processor at the standard operating frequency of the current version of the system when the application is designed for a current version of a system; or c) miming the application at a second operating frequency when the application is designed for a less powerful version of the system, wherein the less powerful version of the system is characterized by a different standard operating frequency, wherein the second operating frequency is less than the standard operating frequency of the current version of the system and higher than the standard operating frequency of the less powerful version of the system.


.

thats funny

 

[Napalm_Frank]

Zhuge said that gamespot confirmed the Neo will be at the Sony press conference?

I mean, thats the whole point of the event. They wouldn't throw a PS Meeting just for Slim.

 

[Hexa]

1. A method, comprising: a) determining whether an application loaded on a current version of a system is for the current version of a system or a less powerful version of the system, wherein the current version of the system is characterized by a standard operating frequency; b) miming the application on a processor at the standard operating frequency of the current version of the system when the application is designed for a current version of a system; or c) miming the application at a second operating frequency when the application is designed for a less powerful version of the system, wherein the less powerful version of the system is characterized by a different standard operating frequency, wherein the second operating frequency is less than the standard operating frequency of the current version of the system and higher than the standard operating frequency of the less powerful version of the system.


.

thats funny

If you're talking about the weird repeated wording, it's required legalese. Depending on who they get to examine the case if they didn't do that they might get a rejection (specifically 112b indefiniteness for lack of antecedent basis).

I would be shocked if it wasn't for Neo. Sounds exactly like the base mode/Neo mode documentation.

Yeah. This probably also means Cerny was heavily involved with Neo (as expected) so I hope we see him on stage at the event.

 

[bebop242]

Sorry haven't kept up with latest rumors but has there been any word of 4k support for the Slim like the Xbox slim?

 

[Napalm_Frank]

Sorry haven't kept up with latest rumors but has there been any word of 4k support for the Slim like the Xbox slim?

Slim won't support 4k.

 

[Hexa]

Sorry haven't kept up with latest rumors but has there been any word of 4k support for the Slim like the Xbox slim?

Slim didn't just get leaked, it got stolen or something from a factory and sold on craigslist or something like that, and is confirmed not have support for 4K.

 

[bebop242]

Slim won't support 4k.

Slim didn't just get leaked, it got stolen or something from a factory and sold on craigslist or something like that, and is confirmed not have support for 4K.

Thanks for this. Unfortunate.

 

[Flyinmunky]

Ok a tech question for you guys which I have no idea on.....
I'm getting a new projector which is native 10bit with 12bit dithering....

Now If I'm right higher the bit depth less banding etc

So my questions are are all games 8bit colour depth?
Will Neo support maybe 10bit/12bit for games?
Does having a display that does 10bit native with 12 bit dithering improve 8bit source in terms of banding etc?

 

[Jonnax]

Ok a tech question for you guys which I have no idea on.....
I'm getting a new projector which is native 10bit with 12bit dithering....

Now If I'm right higher the bit depth less banding etc

So my questions are are all games 8bit colour depth?
Will Neo support maybe 10bit/12bit for games?
Does having a display that does 10bit native with 12 bit dithering improve 8bit source in terms of banding etc?

Here's a link with a technical intro into HDR:
http://www.flatpanelshd.com/focus.php?subaction=showfull&id=1435052975

You're correct that the ordinary standard is 8bit colour depth.
HDR increases this. However to take advantage of it you need your projector/display to support HDR input.

The projector may support it in an unusual way which may mean that it needs to be used with a PC to get the full 10bits.
So I recommend checking for it.

 

[Flyinmunky]

Here's a link with a technical intro into HDR:
http://www.flatpanelshd.com/focus.php?subaction=showfull&id=1435052975

You're correct that the ordinary standard is 8bit colour depth.
HDR increases this. However to take advantage of it you need your projector/display to support HDR input.

The projector may support it in an unusual way which may mean that it needs to be used with a PC to get the full 10bits.
So I recommend checking for it.

Thanks for link. Its the new Epson 9300 ( 5040ub in US) its 4K HDR.

Would be cool if Neo games provided 10bit to help with banding etc...

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

Who is John harker?

Like Plinko said, he is an insider with a good track record.

He doesn't drop Osiris-sized info dumps, in his case it's usually a half-sentence. He might not be super detailed, but it seems like he doesn't post info based on nothing, he has talked to someone working on it or seen it himself.

If he says "there might be some truth" to Neo getting an upgrade/bump, it means he's heard something more substantial than just the normal forum hearsay or website click bait. IMO if he says there is some small grain of truth to the rumors, there likely is...but we should keep are expectations in check.

 

[onQ123]

Do you think this may have something to do with Neo? It involves Cerny and based on development cycles was filed at about the right time.

http://appft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...&d=PG01&S1=Cerny.IN.&OS=Cerny.IN.&RS=Cerny.IN.











That would further lend credence to the Neo limiting the clock for BC. I also feel that that probably means that we won't see any benefits from the new architecture either.

Good find

 

[John Harker]

Like Plinko said, he is an insider with a good track record.

He doesn't drop Osiris-sized info dumps, in his case it's usually a half-sentence. He might not be super detailed, but it seems like he doesn't post info based on nothing, he has talked to someone working on it or seen it himself.

If he says "there might be some truth" to Neo getting an upgrade/bump, it means he's heard something more substantial than just the normal forum hearsay or website click bait. IMO if he says there is some small grain of truth to the rumors, there likely is...but we should keep are expectations in check.

yup. i said there might be some truth in it. i believe at the time, the announcement it was being unveiled the 7th wasn't out yet, so that was true, and then the part about them discussing a reaction to Scorpio... well, that might be true too. whether it actually happened or not, that i would temper my expectations and find out soon enough!

 

[TheKastorian]

The thing I'd like to see most at the meeting, is Mark Cerny giving an overview of the Neo architecture.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

The thing I'd like to see most at the meeting, is Mark Cerny giving an overview of the Neo architecture.

Me too. His PS4 lecture reminded me of Dawkins Christmas lectures from the early 90's!

 

[HStallion]

Me too. His PS4 lecture reminded me of Dawkins Christmas lectures from the early 90's!

The PS4K will be powered by the Knack Engine.

 

[recklesscognition]

Cool, nice leak on the Cerny tech stuff. Sounds a little more complicated than simply turing on the spoof clock, it must account for a number of other advancements in the Neo, but they've figured a formula out I guess.

Do you think he's found a way to make the Neo sound like a hairdryer when playing OG games?

Edit: Originally filled February 20, 2015. Been cooking this up for a while.

 

[chadskin]

The thing I'd like to see most at the meeting, is Mark Cerny giving an overview of the Neo architecture.

And then reveal Knack 2.

 

[Zil33184]

Do you think this may have something to do with Neo? It involves Cerny and based on development cycles was filed at about the right time.

http://appft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...&d=PG01&S1=Cerny.IN.&OS=Cerny.IN.&RS=Cerny.IN.

That would further lend credence to the Neo limiting the clock for BC. I also feel that that probably means that we won't see any benefits from the new architecture either.

Maybe. It depends on what aspects of the software rely on strict timing and refer to the spoof clock, and whether they sync with other parts of the game based on that. Since the actual BC clock can be higher than the PS4's, there may still be benefits for performance on the GPU side where the clock usually doesn't matter to the renderer.

 

[martino]

Do you think this may have something to do with Neo? It involves Cerny and based on development cycles was filed at about the right time.

http://appft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...&d=PG01&S1=Cerny.IN.&OS=Cerny.IN.&RS=Cerny.IN.

That would further lend credence to the Neo limiting the clock for BC. I also feel that that probably means that we won't see any benefits from the new architecture either.

the shocking thing here is that generic and broad idea can be patented...(and if it can ,it was not already)

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

yup. i said there might be some truth in it. i believe at the time, the announcement it was being unveiled the 7th wasn't out yet, so that was true, and then the part about them discussing a reaction to Scorpio... well, that might be true too. whether it actually happened or not, that i would temper my expectations and find out soon enough!

Thanks for the clarification, even if nothing comes of it, it's still an interesting tidbit.

 

[manzo]

Thanks for link. Its the new Epson 9300 ( 5040ub in US) its 4K HDR.

Would be cool if Neo games provided 10bit to help with banding etc...

Except those models are not real 4k projectors. They're 1080p with 4k "simulation".

 

[Badlucktroll]

I had a bit of a concern. When Xbox One S scanned my TV it said that "Your TV cannot display 4k 10 bit, however it can do 4k 8bit so you can still upconvert to 4k".
This makes me concerned. How will it effect PS Neo and Xbox Scorpio? Will i be able to game in 4k at all on my tv with these upcoming consoles?

I have a Vizio M-43 C1

 

[Caayn]

I had a bit of a concern. When Xbox One S scanned my TV it said that "Your TV cannot display 4k 10 bit, however it can do 4k 8bit so you can still upconvert to 4k".
This makes me concerned. How will it effect PS Neo and Xbox Scorpio? Will i be able to game in 4k at all on my tv with these upcoming consoles?

I have a Vizio M-43 C1

It'll be a while before games will use 10bit colour, even when they do it should work the same as selecting RGB limited vs RGB full range. You've nothing to worry about.

 

[flozuki]

It'll be a while before games will use 10bit colour, even when they do it should work the same as selecting RGB limited vs RGB full range. You've nothing to worry about.

Whats with Forza in September and Gears in October?

 

[Caayn]

Whats with Forza in September and Gears in October?

My understanding is that 10bit colour means that you use a wide colour gamut such P3 or BT.2020. I wonder how this will work for HDR games on the XB1 though as WCG is one of the main pillars of HDR.

Digital Foundry: Are you using the wider colour gamut (DCI P3) for HDR-enabled titles?

Albert Penello: Not currently. We are not supporting WCG for games in Xbox One S. We are supporting the wider Bt.2020 color gamut in Xbox One S for media, however.

Edit: Alien Isolation on PC jumps to mind, if I remember correctly that games uses 10bit colour if you got the hardware.

 

[Woodchipper]

Thanks for this. Unfortunate.

The whole point of Slim is to be cheap, so I personally don't get why it's unfortunate.

 

[Planet]

Sony didn't need the Slim to have 4K features, because there will be a model for that market very soon. For Microsoft, 4K support on the Slim was a smart move.

 

[bebop242]

The whole point of Slim is to be cheap, so I personally don't get why it's unfortunate.

Well yea depending on the price, I'm just saying its unfortunate compaired to xbox one slim which has the capability. Also on a personal note, a friend of mine was hoping for 4k playback on the ps4 slim since he wants a ps4, but doesn't need/want the neo upgrade (doesn't game a lot) and has a 4k TV.

 

[Hexa]

the shocking thing here is that generic and broad idea can be patented...(and if it can ,it was not already)

It wasn't actually patented, just applied for and rejected (though nonfinal so they can amend it). I'm on my phone right now though so I can't comment on the rejection, but you can read it on PublicPair by putting in the application number (14/627988) if you're interested.

 

[Flyinmunky]

Except those models are not real 4k projectors. They're 1080p with 4k "simulation".

Yep I'm aware of that. The 4K simulation at normal viewing distance looks surprisingly close to native 4k. It still does HDR and the Wider colour etc. Add in the Fact we wont be getting AAA native 4k games anyway I'm more interested in wider colour etc...

Be interesting to see how much input lag is added and how good the image looks when using 4k Simulation with a game though.

But yeah I'm curious if games will make the jump from 8bit to 10bit in terms of colour on some Neo games.

 

[Dreez]

Bring on the Knack 2 bundles &#128520;

 

[BeforeU]

The whole point of Slim is to be cheap, so I personally don't get why it's unfortunate.

Because Xbox One S is slim, cheap and also supports 4K?

It is unfortunate indeed. But as a business stand point, they want to have less reasons not to buy Neo. So looks like they are purposely not offering 4K player on Slim so people buy Neo.

 

[le-seb]

the shocking thing here is that generic and broad idea can be patented...(and if it can ,it was not already)

Software patents are an abomination.
It's a good thing the EU rejected them.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Because Xbox One S is slim, cheap and also supports 4K?

It is unfortunate indeed. But as a business stand point, they want to have less reasons not to buy Neo. So looks like they are purposely not offering 4K player on Slim so people buy Neo.

Well yeah, its a smart business strategy cause it lowers the cost of the NEO. I would assume a base price cut of 249 for it specifically because of that, and the fact that they can further price cut it to perhaps 199 in specific situations

 

[disco potato]

I had a bit of a concern. When Xbox One S scanned my TV it said that "Your TV cannot display 4k 10 bit, however it can do 4k 8bit so you can still upconvert to 4k".
This makes me concerned. How will it effect PS Neo and Xbox Scorpio? Will i be able to game in 4k at all on my tv with these upcoming consoles?

I have a Vizio M-43 C1

It will display 4k, it just won't upscale to 4k HDR since you need an HDR set to display that.

 

[QaaQer]

Edit: Originally filled February 20, 2015. Been cooking this up for a while.

Since before the release of the ps4.