lowhighkang_LHK
Member
No. On samsung normal means full. and low means limited.
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PS4's Automatic RGB setting is unreliable, so double check your TV / PS4
- Thread starter lowhighkang_LHK
- Start date
No. On samsung normal means full. and low means limited.
So I have a new Sony 4K and I've had it confirmed that it supports full range, but sadly doesn't look like I can use it as my AV receiver seems to re-encode the signal as limited or some crap, just like it won't let me use 4K resolution or 120 Hz through it. I have to run the signal through the AV receiver to get 5.1 PCM (ARC and optical will only deliver stereo, dolby digital and dts).
I thought about just using an HDMI splitter, that way I can plug the video directly to the TV and then another into the AV receiver for the sound but when I did this my AV receiver started going completely apeshit. It would randomly freeze and become unresponsive, audio would start delaying, and... worst of all... randomly the audio would just turn to a hellishly loud neverending screeching sound.
Anyone have any experience with this? Is my HDMI splitter just shot or do some devices really not like this kind of setup?
I thought about just using an HDMI splitter, that way I can plug the video directly to the TV and then another into the AV receiver for the sound but when I did this my AV receiver started going completely apeshit. It would randomly freeze and become unresponsive, audio would start delaying, and... worst of all... randomly the audio would just turn to a hellishly loud neverending screeching sound.
Anyone have any experience with this? Is my HDMI splitter just shot or do some devices really not like this kind of setup?
Holy crap this is confusing.
So limited = deeper blacks? Because if I use TV Low (limited), I get deeper blacks on that reference image with the black to grey squares than if I use TV Normal (full). TV Normal (full) gives me a washed out image in comparison.
lowhighkang_LHK
Member
There is nothing inherently wrong with limited. Just make sure your ps4 is also set to limited.
lowhighkang_LHK
Member
It doesn't really matter what your TV is set at. It's more important that your PS4 knows what your TV is at. Put your TV on whatever setting you'd like. But make sure you set your PS4 to a setting that matches that and gives you the best picture quality. Deep blacks but not crushed blacks. You need to be able to distinguish dark grey from black for example.
Looking at what you say, put your TV on limited, and then go to sound and screen in your ps4's settings and specifically put it to limited. If you like the image you're getting, then you are good to go.
lowhighkang_LHK
Member
Sorry for the triple post. But can you elaborate? Skim through your tv's picture settings and see if you find something like, black range, RGB range, color range, black levels etc. Look at what it's set at, then go to your ps4's sound and screen setting and make sure the RGB range matches.
That's the issue with the naming, because I have to use TV Normal and PS4 Full to get deep blacks, if I use TV Low and PS4 Full I get crushed blacks, and if TV Normal and PS4 Limited then I get washed out blacks.
Basically, the TV set is {Normal, Low}, PS4 is {Limited, Full}, and I have to use (Normal, Full) or (Low, Limited), so the descriptions are basically the opposite.
lowhighkang_LHK
Member
No, that's how it should be. Samsung has it's black range listed as normal and low. If you put your TV on normal, put your PS4 on full. If you put your TV on low, put your PS4 on limited.
Most other TV companies will say High or Low. But for some reason Samsung lists it's high as "normal."
So everything is correct, but like I said, be mindful of how it's labeled. Ultimately at the end of the day, it's just two options. The higher option on the TV refers to PS4 Full. The lower option on the TV refers to PS4 limited.
Ricerocket
Member
On an LG TV it's low (limited) or high (full).
Samsung TV has low (limited) or Normal (full).
Source devices will have limited or full.
The description is not opposite...
lowhighkang_LHK
Member
You should be good to go. Curious, from my knowledge most TV's come out of the box defaulting to limited, did you happen to change your TV to full some time in the past? I'm asking you this for personal knowledge.
SMOK3Y
Generous Member
Yeah in the settings (not picture) but main settings, display, video input settings, dynamic range. Changed them all to FUL & thanks for help mate
MAX PAYMENT
Member
So my tv has the color range choice, but one of the choices is automatic. Should I trust it?
tioslash
Member
Yup the automatic setting has been like this forever.
Here's a easy way to check if your TV supports full and if your setting on the PS4 is correct.
View the below image in the PS4 browser. If your TV supports RGB full you'll be able to see the upper left most square very faintly. If it doesn't support it or if your settings are wrong, you likely won't see most of the top row. Toggle the RGB setting from limited and full and you'll see the difference in the image. If your TV doesn't support Full RGB, you just won't be able to see the top row of squares because the blacks used are blacker than the range RGB Limited can support.
Ok, my TV isn´t very new (it doesn´t even have any RGB setting that I can change it) and since I got my PS4 earlier this year I´ve never messed with any setting and just set RGB Range to "Automatic" on the PS4.
Now I loaded this image on the PS4 browser and I can see the top row perfectly if it´s set to "Automatic", "Limited" or "Full". On all 3 settings. I would think this means the TV supports Full RGB Range? but I really can´t tell which setting is better here.
I´ve tried to play a dark section of Order 1886 or The Last Of Us, and when PS4 is set to "Limited" the image is a lot brighter and it feels like "grayish" or washed out overall, and if I set to "Full", the colors are definitely better, very strong but it gets very dark.
Is there an easy way for me to tell the diference between crushed blacks and "good" blacks?
dealer-
Member
There is no benefit to setting PS4 to Full unless you are using a PC monitor, leave it at limited and with a Samsung TV set the black level to low, then calibrate from there.
Admiral Woofington
Member
If your TV doesn't have settings anywhere in the image menu, including under a separate sub menu, to change the level of blacks then it's almost likely to be limited. If thats the case change to limited. You don't wanna have your ps4 and your TV clash because one of two things happens: either it crushes the blacks or the image is washed out and the tv gets a milky covering where blacks turn to grey. You always have the minimum brightness settings to see the full range of blacks.
RoninChaos
Member
What does this do as far as bluray playback?
It's not confusing when you think of it like this:
Limited RGB = Default for HDTVs
Full RGB = Default for PC monitors
You just have to ensure your console's RBG output matches your display. That's it. So either Full and Full, or Limited and Limited. A mismatch will either produced an image that's too dark, or too washed out.
Better HDTVs will give you the option to change between Full or Limited, but it doesn't matter which one you use as long as your devices match it. You're less likely to have issues if you have your TV set to Limited, as this will be the default, or only option, for all your consoles/STBs/DVD players etc.
For example, the WiiU only outputs Limited RBG, so if you have your TV set to Full, you'll get washed out blacks.
Admiral Woofington
Member
jack shit sadly. I set up my whole TV using the Disney Wow bluray, and you can't set blu-rays to full so I did it in limited, then copied the settings to my full black levels for the PS4 and apps.
Luckily, at least with my TV, whenever I switch to blu rays it switches to my limited settings.
Huh? Isn't this a system setting? Why would it matter if you are playing a blu ray or not?
Admiral Woofington
Member
I asked the same question, and I honestly don't know. All I was told is that blu ray films are set to limited rgb or something, it's weird.
Unless it's my tv.
But my PS4 can do full blacks with the tv set to full. If I set the tv to full while in the blu ray movie, it washes out the image.
I also checked and whenever I switched from my ps4 image settings to the blu ray disc playing in the ps4, it switched from full to limited by itself. Something it doesn't do with games or apps. And I can't keep the image quality with full blacks in the blu ray.
ShooterMcTavish
Banned
you can test wether your ps4's auto mode is faulty. Just set your tv to your desired setting, either full, limited, or automatic if you have it. Then ps4 to auto.
Next download that color scale that has been posted on this topic numerous times. If you can make out the top row just barely then you are good.
Okay if everything looks good then while you're in the video settings of the ps4, switch from the auto option to either full or limited, if the picture doesn't go out then whatever option you selected was what the ps4 was originally set to in auto mode.
New sony tv's " late 2013 and onward" seem good at auto setting both the set and communicating with the ps4. My sony w900a actually has a link to the ps4 option, which lets you turn on the ps4 just by selecting the correct input on your tv. It even says input "PS4' automatically.
I will say that the ps4 was having a problem last year after an update where it kept switching my setting to limited, i could tell because my picture looked washed out, I would have to reset my ps4 to fix the option. This was fixed in further ps4 updates.
Next download that color scale that has been posted on this topic numerous times. If you can make out the top row just barely then you are good.
Okay if everything looks good then while you're in the video settings of the ps4, switch from the auto option to either full or limited, if the picture doesn't go out then whatever option you selected was what the ps4 was originally set to in auto mode.
New sony tv's " late 2013 and onward" seem good at auto setting both the set and communicating with the ps4. My sony w900a actually has a link to the ps4 option, which lets you turn on the ps4 just by selecting the correct input on your tv. It even says input "PS4' automatically.
I will say that the ps4 was having a problem last year after an update where it kept switching my setting to limited, i could tell because my picture looked washed out, I would have to reset my ps4 to fix the option. This was fixed in further ps4 updates.
Live Free or Die
Banned
These are the options I have on my Vizio. Anyone know which ones I need to edit/change? http://imgur.com/a/MoBuG
lowhighkang_LHK
Member
None of those options are related to RGB range. Maybe it's under advanced settings?
Is it Sony receiver by any chance? I have the exact same issue. I have the new 4k sony tv with the kick ass speakers on it so I just run the hmdi from the ps4 directly to the tv. I get deep colour support and better image quality.
lowhighkang_LHK
Member
If you start noticing that some areas are getting too dark with obvious loss of detail, switch back to limited.
Also you can get some good 30 inch 1080p tv's for less than 170 dollars nowadays. But I'm sure you have your reasons.
Here's why; Blu-rays are encoded in Ycbcr, which is the HD standard for color range. Games are rendered in RGB and output in RGB. Blu-rays can be forced to be output in RGB but gains you no benefit, the Ycbcr is simply transferred to RGB and is only useful if using a display that for some reason will not accept Ycbcr. Ycbcr is also in the limited reference range for steps of brightness where RGB can be in limited and full.
The problem with HDMI reference ranges is that when they designed the spec they should have made it as part of the HDCP handshake that tells a display what the device is outputting and the device what the display can accept. It should have been designed to tell the device, i.e the PS4 what it is expecting whether it be limited or full and then the device, PS4, should then send the appropriate reference range. I can't fathom how they didn't include this when designing the spec as even today people are getting either a flat, washed out image, or a black crushed and white clipped one if their settings are not correct.
HF2014
Member
Yesh, some area in bloodborne are a bit more black, but i personaly feel it look better that way, example in old yartham, color look less flushed out but more darker, which add imo to the visual. Imthink im going tomtry it for some time and see if i enjoy it more. So far, im really loving the difference.
I know price on some 1080p set are getting cheaper today, but i still love my 42 inch tv, i dont feel in a hurry to make a switch, also might have some other depense to think before that.
Does it have any setting titled "HDMI Black Level" or maybe "Reference Range"? What's the model number?
oneils
Member
Hi, it's the 50R550A. I'm looking at the manual now and don't really see anything like that. There are colour temperature settings and "live color" settings. The options for live color are high, medium, low and off. That leads me to believe they are not really rgb settings.
Just took a look at the manual online and I don't see any setting that applies to black level. In this case set your devices to limited and you should be correct.
EDIT: I always find CNET's calibration settings to be a great starting point for adjustment. Here's a link to their review of your set which also contains a link to their settings used after calibration. You're not going to get the same results as they did due to factory floor deviations from set to set, but it should get you closer to reference quality than just using one of the presets and sticking with it.
http://www.cnet.com/products/sony-kdl-550a/
Admiral Woofington
Member
Disney wow Blu ray was the biggest eye opemer for me for how often I had the settings way too bright or dark. I know I'm not the only one who has turned up the brightness way too high up in a dark game before.
hikarutilmitt
Member
I use this very TV in my game room and it definitely supports full range RGB. It can be easily tested using the image tioslash posted earlier:
It shows correctly on my PS3, PS4 and PC. It was actually one of the features I was checking for when shopping for a TV at the time, since I insisted on a 10-bit panel so it could support full range RGB.
lowhighkang_LHK
Member
This is a correct assumption. RGB range is something that would be listed as a toggle between two and only two settings when it comes to televisions.
StylesClash
Member
So literally all samsungs are the same in this regard?
lowhighkang_LHK
Member
My Samsung monitor doesn't communicate it's RGB range with PS4 automatically, I have to set it up specifically.
Maybe Samsung TVs can communicate properly. Regardless just double check it. No harm no foul.
StylesClash
Member
I've never noticed an issue but I don't have an eye for things like that. I literally stumbled across my model number the other day and it made me think of this thread. My tv is quite a few years older though.
oneils
Member
Here is the thing: You should NEVER EVER use FULL RGB in your PS4 settings, EVEN IF your TV supports it. The problem lies within the bluray playback. The PS4 automatically reverts back to LIMITED while playing blus, which means that your "darker" (full black) TV settings will screw the image while playing movies. It will be good for games (FULL + FULL), but never for movies (LIMITED + FULL).
To have the proper levels for both games and blus you need to have the PS4 settings on LIMITED.
To have the proper levels for both games and blus you need to have the PS4 settings on LIMITED.
Goose_Se7en
Banned
lowhighkang_LHK
Member
Check through it's settings. You will see an option describing something like black level, black range, RGB range, etc. and it'll have a toggle between two options. The higher value is referring to PS4 full. The lower value is referring to PS4 limited.
If you're in doubt, understand that most TV's default to limited out of the box, so put your PS4 on limited.
It's the PC monitors that generally default to FULL out of the box.
hikarutilmitt
Member
My god, please stop this. You're spreading FUD. If Sony were to fix the automatic output setting (which they may have an nobody who knows wtf they're talking about has tested yet) this wouldn't be an issue, but to leave it at limited all the time even if your panel supports it is crazy. Blu-rays will have slightly washed out blacks because of Blu-ray not supporting 10-bit color profiles, but games will look worse if you leave ti as limited which, if you remember, lots of people use the PS4 to play games!
Not all sets have an option to turn on/off or even check the RGB support. Neither of my Sony TVs, one from 2008 and one from 2013, both have 10-bit panels and thus support full range RGB. Neither of them has an option for the RGB range, it just "does" full range.
The IQ increase in games with FULL RGB is super slim - you will have the full color palette in games no matter if you have full or limited.
On a properly set up TV, RGB Full doesn't give blacker blacks or whiter whites (for games), it just gives more steps in between. Therefore you are trading a minuscule improvement in game display for a more significant degradation in movie display.
SirMossyBloke
Member
What??? This isn't FUD at all, he's correct. Blu-ray movies are mastered in limited RBG, and if you set your ps4 to full and your TV to full theyll work great for games, but you'll wash out the range for blu-ray. Your games certainly will not "look worse" if you calibrate using limited RBG. They'll look perfectly fine as long as you calibrate with limited in mind for both ps4 and TV.
davidwhangchoi
Member
interesting article.
i have a pioneer kuro pro 151 FD, should i put it full or limited. i'll try to dig through the thread and see if someone has my tv
i have a pioneer kuro pro 151 FD, should i put it full or limited. i'll try to dig through the thread and see if someone has my tv
Now you're spreading a bit of FUD. Blu-rays are not encoded in RGB and do not output in RGB natively. Your HDMI black level has ZERO affect on how Blu-rays are displayed. If a panel correctly accepts RGB full and limited no adjustments need to be made when switching between the two aside from adjusting the black level setting on your TV or monitor so it displays it properly.
To the TV comment that you own, I am not calling you out but that seems very odd to me that that model of TV accepts either full or limited and adjusts on the fly since it does not have a toggle. That kind of feature SHOULD be in all TVs so this incorrect display of black level nonsense would have been a non-issue but that is not the case. It your Blu-rays are looking washed out and you say you can accept full RGB properly on that set that doesn't have a toggle, that tells me that you used that slide as your reference, adjusted your brightness level so you can see the appropriate full RGB squares and now when veiwing content from Blu-rays which are encoded in the limited 15-235 Ycbcr range it looks washed out since your brightness is too high.
EDIT
Again, NO. While Blu-rays' brightness/reference range is indeed limited i.e. 15-235 it is encoded in Ycbcr, NOT RGB. Plus, while its reference range is 15-235 the signal allows for whiter than white and blacker than black material to be passed and shown if the display and display device allow it. RGB does not allow this and if you force watching a Blu-ray to RGB this extra detail,granted it's not in all films/shows etc., will be lost as RGB does not allow this information.
Edit 2: If you properly adjust your brightness, i.e through instrument calibration or utilizing a test disc such as DVE Essentials, your brightness will be correct for limited and full range, RGB and Ycbcr. Your brightness should never had to be adjusted between the two ranges if your TV properly accepts both.