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[Draft]

I hardly need 'evidence', games are a matter of taste, and all the Id games I've played have been utter trash.

Although, Carmack shouldn't really be the aim of my attacks, their tech is great, and he's not actually designing the games, he's just the front of the studio.

Actually you do need evidence, because any opinion that's not backed up by insightful observation and analysis is so much fart in the wind.

id isn't the trendsetter they once were, but about 15 years ago they more or less invented the FPS, which has gone on to become the dominant genre in gaming.

They are one of the most important game studios to ever exist, and their products are on any objective short list of the greatest, most influential games of all time.

 

[expy]

I'd imagine it's difficult to back that up with any strong arguments. There isn't really anything bad you can say about Carmack, unless you're seriously fishing. The guy and his company don't frequently make games, and when they do, they push the genre forward in one way or another (or several ways, back in the day). When Carmack feels he made a critical mistake in his games, like the flashlight in Doom 3 or Quake 2's single-player, he owns up to it.

What exactly is there to criticize? The man can't make a game run at 60 FPS that isn't going to due to the tech he's working with. Carmack and id are hardly the only devs that have struggled to get something meaningful out of the PS3. How much more evidence do we need that the PS3 architecture is simply unfriendly to most devs? The only ones that have really pushed it are exclusive PS3 devs and Criterion.

That is true in most respects, however, a 40FPS difference is a pretty huge gap when it comes to the current generation of consoles/platforms. I don't recall any other game this gen (PS3/360) that had a 40FPS gap for the same game. There must be something wrong with their engine on the PS3.

 

[StuBurns]

Actually you do need evidence, because any opinion that's not backed up by insightful observation and analysis is so much fart in the wind.

id isn't the trendsetter they once were, but about 15 years ago they more or less invented the FPS, which has gone on to become the dominant genre in gaming.

They are one of the most important game studios to ever exist, and their products are on any objective short list of the greatest, most influential games of all time.

Importance and quality are completely different.

If you can physically prove the objective quality of their game design, then fine, do so, otherwise you too are farting in the wind.

 

[Zeliard]

I'll bite. HL2 and Doom 3 came out in the same year, I wonder which one pushed the genre forward and is remembered fondly by all.

That is an exceptionally poor comparison to make. :lol

Not only does it not argue against a single thing that I wrote (so I really should just leave it here), but Half-Life 1 itself may have not even existed had it not been for Quake 1. Valve was highly influenced by it, modified Quake's engine to build their own for HL, and then used Quake's high popularity as reasoning for why publishers should buy into their game during its development.

I hardly need 'evidence', games are a matter of taste, and all the Id games I've played have been utter trash.

The Quake games are "utter trash"? Really? I guess it is a matter of taste, and you have none.

 

[Chiggs]

I'll bite. HL2 and Doom 3 came out in the same year, I wonder which one pushed the genre forward and is remembered fondly by all.

Far Cry was more groundbreaking than either of those games, and beat them both to the market by 5 or 6 months.

 

[Revelations]

They'll ring it up to speed. Come now you dont honestly think they will ship the game at 20fps. They will do more tweaking and such and bring the PS3 version up to optimal standards. And if thats 30fps so be it. They just need a little more time with the hardware. I say call ND up and contract one of their programmers.

 

[RussTK]

"The RSX is slower than what we have in the 360. The CPU is about the same

About the same?

 

[lemon__fresh]

That is an exceptionally poor comparison to make. :lol

Not only does it not argue against a single thing that I wrote (so I really should just leave it here), but Half-Life 1 itself may have not even existed had it not been for Quake 1. Valve was highly influenced by it, modified Quake's engine to build their own for HL, and then used Quake's high popularity as reasoning for why publishers should buy into their game during its development.



The Quake games are "utter trash"? Really? I guess it is a matter of taste, and you have none.

I was talking more recently, post Doom3(inclusive). Not many would argue that ID WAS(pre Doom3) pushing the boundaries and putting out unique products. Although I suppose Doom 3 was the first to use "dynamic lighting" so I guess im really arguing the product and technology as a whole and not just the technology.... My bad.

 

[gofreak]

That is true in most respects, however, a 40FPS difference is a pretty huge gap when it comes to the current generation of consoles/platforms. I don't recall any other game this gen (PS3/360) that had a 40FPS gap for the same game. There must be something wrong with their engine on the PS3.

Perhaps we will be able to ascertain that when the game/engine is finished. I highly doubt the statements above about framerate are intended as a indicator of what they expect from the product, but reflect current in-development status. So give them a chance to finish their engine before saying there's something wrong with it

 

[Wax Free Vanilla]

About the same?

Gek:

According to Carmack - yes.

20-30fps :lol so much for 60fps on all platforms.

 

[Interfectum]

They'll ring it up to speed. Come now you dont honestly think they will ship the game at 20fps. They will do more tweaking and such and bring the PS3 version up to optimal standards. And if thats 30fps so be it. They just need a little more time with the hardware. I say call ND up and contract one of their programmers.

:lol

 

[baultista]

The only thing better than the article itself are the comments:

You people are idiots.

Pointing the finger at the BR drive just shows how little you f-ing know about consoles, and how arrogant you are as a person.

Also this article shows how lazy Carmack is in regards to programming and putting the effort in, other developers have shown that they can get a fast framerate coupled with amazing graphics/physics/AI and sound out of the console in tandem. Blaming the low fps on the PS3 itself is just ignorant, and exposes his laziness. There are workarounds and methods to fix this obstacle.

Yes, ID may rectify the fps issue by launch and here's hoping, but to openly come out with that comment on how slow it is on PS3 compared to his other format versions (of which the 360 was likely the easiest to port, as explained later on), is just stupid and fanboy baiting. If this is seen as a fanboy comment, I couldn't god-damn care less. I'm just tired of developers moaning about this-or-that on whatver console. You CHOSE to release it on that format,therefore you are OBLIGED to make do, and make the best of it you can.

The quote "only a shoddy workman blames his tools" comes to mind, though... only a tool, blames other tools.

A little more time spend on the PS3 version and they'd get it on par fps-wise with the PC. Of course the 360 version's going to run at a similar rate to that of the PC, as the 360 is essentially, a PC, in a smaller box.

Lazy developers deserve little of my time and patience.

Also, I have all consoles, and I buy the game for whatever format has the most optimised and feature-heavy version (mostly PC) but I'd personally rather have a slightly slower (albeit very playable - 30fps is fine you snobs) version than having "INSERT DISC 2", "INSERT DISC 3", "INSERT DISC 4" on every so-often. Multi-disc gaming tbh is very 1990's

:lol :lol :lol

 

[StealthGoblin]

20-30 FPS? Thats unacceptable Carmack. I hope you spruce that up before its release, or you might end up with egg on your face.

 

[Lagspike_exe]

They'll ring it up to speed. Come now you dont honestly think they will ship the game at 20fps. They will do more tweaking and such and bring the PS3 version up to optimal standards. And if thats 30fps so be it. They just need a little more time with the hardware. I say call ND up and contract one of their programmers.

Lead PS3 programmer IS a former ND programmer IIRC.

Also, this is starting to be a joke.
Didn't Carmack say last year that the code is running at 60 frames on BOTH platform?
Also, didn't he say that PS3 has a little more performance?
And NOW he is saying that PS3 version is running at half the framerate of the 360 version AND that RSX is weaker than Xenos, while Cell and a freaking tri-core PowerPC are equal in performance.

 

[Draft]

Importance and quality are completely different.

If you can physically prove the objective quality of their game design, then fine, do so, otherwise you too are farting in the wind.

Important games are always good games. No bad game ever made enough of an impact to be important.

 

[LordPhoque]

They'll ring it up to speed. Come now you dont honestly think they will ship the game at 20fps. They will do more tweaking and such and bring the PS3 version up to optimal standards. And if thats 30fps so be it. They just need a little more time with the hardware. I say call ND up and contract one of their programmers.

Uncharted runs at 60fps ?

 

[Ogami Itto]

Expect a retraction/correction by the end of the day.

 

[StuBurns]

Important games are always good games. No bad game ever made enough of an impact to be important.

Utter bullshit.

Nintendogs is quite possibly the most important game this generation. It's fucking garbage.

 

[evolution]

This game better be the most advanced thing on consoles when it releases :lol Too much talking without any gameplay ever shown.

 

[Windom Earle]

Rage runs faster on Xbox 360



http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=220530

4 discs? I thought Carmack/someone from the dev team said they were aiming for 2 possibly 3 discs due to royalty costs.

This is some serious bullshit. What's with all the talk about a unified experience on all platforms? Carmack, consider me disappointed.

It this turns out like that in the release build, I will have to buy this for 360 Disc changing and lower res textures ftl, but this framerate difference is not acceptable.

 

[StuBurns]

This is some serious bullshit. What's with all the talk about a unified experience on all platforms? Carmack, consider me disappointed.

It this turns out like that in the release build, I will have to buy this for 360 Disc changing and lower res textures ftl, but this framerate difference is not acceptable.

Release is over a year away isn't it?

It's not even near gold code they're playing. Just because it's below 30fps now doesn't mean it will ship like that.

 

[Erebus]

That is true in most respects, however, a 40FPS difference is a pretty huge gap when it comes to the current generation of consoles/platforms. I don't recall any other game this gen (PS3/360) that had a 40FPS gap for the same game. There must be something wrong with their engine on the PS3.

Not sure if there was a 40fps gap but the first Madden released on PS3 run at half the frame rate of the X360 version. Another example is HL2 Orange Box, which had many issues with the frame rate on the PS3 version. And generally there are lots of multiformat games that run far better on the Xbox 360.

However, all these games came much earlier on the PS3's lifecycle when developers were still getting used to Cell's quirky architecture.

 

[Nizz]

I really want to believe that it's just a matter of development being some time behind on PS3, a 40 fps difference is way to important to be just mentioned as a "side note".

I hope so. This is really disappointing to hear. Wasn't this game demoed on 360/PS3/PC and Mac? Couple of E3's ago they had all four versions running side by side and they looked pretty much identical.

I don't understand how now they're having trouble with the framerate on PS3. I mean half the framerate? That's a big difference. It brings back memories of 07 when Madden ran at half the framerate on PS3 than it did on 360.

id gets the benefit of the doubt, since the game's not finished yet. But if they can't get that framerate to 60, that's gotta be disappointing for PS3 owners, and potential customers who may want to use the engine for their games...

 

[Tom Penny]

A 40 FPS difference isn't even a big deal. The average gamer can't even tell the difference...

 

[Draft]

Utter bullshit.

Nintendogs is quite possibly the most important game this generation. It's fucking garbage.

Millions of normal people who don't post on game message boards disagree.

You hate on casual games that moms like, and also on DOOM and Quake? You're an odd duck son. Might be time to find a new hobby.

 

[proposition]

Far Cry was more groundbreaking than either of those games, and beat them both to the market by 5 or 6 months.

Doom 3 and Half-Life 2 are both leaps and bounds better than Far Cry.

Groundbreaking, sure, good, no.

 

[Sciz]

Lead PS3 programmer IS a former ND programmer IIRC.

Pretty sure this is correct, though I can't find the article offhand.

Important games are always good games. No bad game ever made enough of an impact to be important.

E.T.?

 

[StuBurns]

Millions of normal people who don't post on game message boards disagree.

You hate on casual games that moms like, and also on DOOM and Quake? You're an odd duck son. Might be time to find a new hobby.

I love many games in the genre which id created, I think HL2 is probably the best game ever, I even like some casual games. Doesn't mean I like Nintendogs or Quake.

 

[Draft]

I love many games in the genre which id created, I think HL2 is probably the best game ever, I even like some casual games. Doesn't mean I like Nintendogs or Quake.

Well, HL2 exists because of id and Quake.

 

[StuBurns]

Well, HL2 exists because of id and Quake.

I agree, I didn't say they weren't important. I said they weren't good.

 

[Erebus]

Lead PS3 programmer IS a former ND programmer IIRC.

It makes sense to me.

 

[camineet]

What's this shit about PS3 RAGE not being 60fps, but being more like 20 to 30 fps ??????

 

[baultista]

Lets clarify things here:

1) All performance numbers you see about GigaFLOPS and TeraFLOPS are all theoretical performance peaks. They are achievable if all your code does is throw tons and tons of floating point math calculations at your hardware.

2) John Carmack was the head guy on iD Tech 5. John Carmack has always been a PC guy.

3) The cell processor is built with one PPE cores (general purpose main core/controller) and eight SPE cores (specialized cores). The Xenon (360) uses three cores that are based on a modified version of the PPE core. It's 3 PPE cores vs 1 PPE Core + 8 SPE cores. The Xenon is better as a general purpose CPU, whereas the Cell requires code to be specialized for better performance on its SPE cores.

4) The RSX chip in the PS3 is a derivative of the GeForce 7800 GPU. The Xenos chip in the 360 was designed as a next-gen GPU specifically for the Xbox360. It has a lot of features and design enhancements that didn't exist in commercially available graphics hardware at the time, including a unified shader architecture.

In terms of pure power these things are very similar. The 360 shares a greater resemblance to PC architecture, so naturally it is easier for Carmack to develop for. If iD Tech 5 was built from the ground up on a PS3 it would probably run better on a PS3, because a lot of design issues would have been tackled differently.

 

[sankt-Antonio]

Well, HL2 exists because of id and Quake.

you think fps wouldnt be invented without id?
edit: (you talked about engine right?nevermind then)

 

[FrankT]

Rage runs faster on Xbox 360



http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=220530

4 discs? I thought Carmack/someone from the dev team said they were aiming for 2 possibly 3 discs due to royalty costs.

They are still shooting for 2 discs as far as I know. Anyhow I cannot believe they are only going to geto 20-30fps on the PS3. What a shame and especially so as they touted the new engine being pretty much universal in that department last year IIRC. Still impressive they are going to get 60 out of this for the 360 to be sure.

Anyhow this will probably be the first PC retail game I've bought in a very long time. When I was at the prime of playing my PC pretty much exclusivly id was the cream of the crop and make no doubt about it the PC is where this game will be meant to be played. I was thinking about upgrading my rig now, but I think I'm going to wait until spring and get the most for my dollars. The new rig will come in handy as this and Diablo III will give it the love it needs.

 

[dejan]

A 40 FPS difference isn't even a big deal. The average gamer can't even tell the difference...

I agree and besides ... Carmack never promised Rage to run at 60fps on all platforms. He was always talking about 60Hz. Yeah, that's Hertz motherfuckers. Anyone got a conversion table at hand?

 

[D2M15]

Man, looking at Rage makes me wish id still had Paul Steed.

 

[Draft]

you think fps wouldnt be invented without id?
edit: (you talked about engine right?nevermind then)

id didn't technically invent first person gaming, and they also arguably didn't invent the first person shooter. But the influence of DOOM and Quake defined that genre for... ever? You still see their impact today.

Do you know what FPS games were called before they were called FPS games? DOOM clones.

 

[Ettie]

Lets clarify things here:

1) All performance numbers you see about GigaFLOPS and TeraFLOPS are all theoretical performance peaks. They are achievable if all your code does is throw tons and tons of floating point math calculations at your hardware.

2) John Carmack was the head guy on iD Tech 5. John Carmack has always been a PC guy.

3) The cell processor is built with one PPE cores (general purpose main core/controller) and eight SPE cores (specialized cores). The Xenon (360) uses three cores that are based on a modified version of the PPE core. It's 3 PPE cores vs 1 PPE Core + 8 SPE cores. The Xenon is better as a general purpose CPU, whereas the Cell requires code to be specialized for better performance on its SPE cores.

4) The RSX chip in the PS3 is a derivative of the GeForce 7800 GPU. The Xenos chip in the 360 was designed as a next-gen GPU specifically for the Xbox360. It has a lot of features and design enhancements that didn't exist in commercially available graphics hardware at the time, including a unified shader architecture.

In terms of pure power these things are very similar. The 360 shares a greater resemblance to PC architecture, so naturally it is easier for Carmack to develop for. If iD Tech 5 was built from the ground up on a PS3 it would probably run better on a PS3, because a lot of design issues would have been tackled differently.

Get that crazeee logic outta here!

Spoiler

Thank you.

 

[lemon__fresh]

I agree and besides ... Carmack never promised Rage to run at 60fps on all platforms. He was always talking about 60Hz. Yeah, that's Hertz motherfuckers. Anyone got a conversion table at hand?

Its kind of weird but since hertz can be used to describe any periodic event and I assume he was using the term in relation to frame per second then the two terms are equivalent.

 

[Huggy]

Lets clarify things here:

1) All performance numbers you see about GigaFLOPS and TeraFLOPS are all theoretical performance peaks. They are achievable if all your code does is throw tons and tons of floating point math calculations at your hardware.

2) John Carmack was the head guy on iD Tech 5. John Carmack has always been a PC guy.

3) The cell processor is built with one PPE cores (general purpose main core/controller) and eight SPE cores (specialized cores). The Xenon (360) uses three cores that are based on a modified version of the PPE core. It's 3 PPE cores vs 1 PPE Core + 8 SPE cores. The Xenon is better as a general purpose CPU, whereas the Cell requires code to be specialized for better performance on its SPE cores.

4) The RSX chip in the PS3 is a derivative of the GeForce 7800 GPU. The Xenos chip in the 360 was designed as a next-gen GPU specifically for the Xbox360. It has a lot of features and design enhancements that didn't exist in commercially available graphics hardware at the time, including a unified shader architecture.

In terms of pure power these things are very similar. The 360 shares a greater resemblance to PC architecture, so naturally it is easier for Carmack to develop for. If iD Tech 5 was built from the ground up on a PS3 it would probably run better on a PS3, because a lot of design issues would have been tackled differently.

So basically, if id spreads Rage over 3 blu-rays discs they'd reach 60 frames per second.

 

[Sciz]

3) The cell processor is built with one PPE cores (general purpose main core/controller) and eight SPE cores (specialized cores). The Xenon (360) uses three cores that are based on a modified version of the PPE core. It's 3 PPE cores vs 1 PPE Core + 8 SPE cores. The Xenon is better as a general purpose CPU, whereas the Cell requires code to be specialized for better performance on its SPE cores.

Unless things have changed since the PS3's launch, Cell boards that come out of manufacturing with all eight cores functioning are sold to the scientific and medical sectors. The PS3 gets boards with one dud core, and one of those remaining seven is reserved for the OS.

 

[StuBurns]

So basically, if id spreads Rage over 3 blu-rays discs they'd reach 60 frames per second.

No?

The disc makes no difference except the drive is slower.

 

[gofreak]

They are still shooting for 2 discs as far as I know. Anyhow I cannot believe they are only going to geto 20-30fps on the PS3. What a shame and especially so as they touted the new engine being pretty much universal in that department last year IIRC. Still impressive they are going to get 60 out of this for the 360 to be sure.

Again, though people are rushing to a conclusion, I think he's referring to the current state of development, not what they expect from the final product. And they have some ways to go. Take a given game in development and you'll often see all manner of ugly framerates, in some cases scarily close to launch, so if it is a reference to the current state of the game, all it tells us is what Carmack has said for a long time - that it takes them longer to bring the PS3 version up.

If however there is such a discrepency when the game is finished, that would indeed be a big let down vs their prior talk. But I think and hope that's not the case, especially since his commentary in other recent previews don't raise this.

 

[Gorgon]

About the same?

Unless you spend a tonshit of money, resources and manpower in trying to squeeze every little bit of performance out of the SPUs, yes. Which of course only first parties do for obvious reasons.

Anyway, this article stinks. The reference to 4 DVDs pretty much gives it away. Plus no other previews have mentioned this, and in fact have confirmed more or less the same performance on the three platforms. It's quite possible the PS3 version will run somewhat slower or that some sacrifices will be made to ensure the 60fps, but 20-30 is utter bulshit.

 

[quinntendopower]

if carmack complains about the ps3, it's a real complaint. that guy is a fucking BRAIN and is a programming master.

if he can't do it, i doubt many others could... he alone is more valuable then entire teams. every engine he has done is good.

i also bet he will actually use V-sync so it won't be filled with tearing

to anyone says Id games are trash, the only way i could see that is if they played the Id games way after they have already been out. when a fresh Id game comes along, it's a big deal. ALWAYS.

 

[Firewire]

But the 360 version will cost more than the PS3 version, because someone has to pay for those 4 discs! :lol

 

[Nizz]

Again, though people are rushing to a conclusion, I think he's referring to the current state of development, not what they expect from the final product. And they have some ways to go. Take a given game in development and you'll often see all manner of ugly framerates, in some cases scarily close to launch, so if it is a reference to the current state of the game, all it tells us is what Carmack has said for a long time - that it takes them longer to bring the PS3 version up.

If however there is such a discrepency when the game is finished, that would indeed be a big let down vs their prior talk. But I think and hope that's not the case, especially since his commentary in other recent previews don't raise this.

I really hope that's it. Anyone know how old that interview is? With magazine lead times, that interview could have been done way earlier this year and id has made progress on PS3 since then.

This is really the first time I've ever heard of them having framerate problems on PS3...

 

[camineet]

if true, that sucks!

PS3 RAGE 20fps

Xbox 360 RAGE: 60fps

I know why!

:lol

 

[Mollymauk]

Get that crazeee logic outta here!

Spoiler

Thank you.

Looks more like rationalization to me. You can justify it all you want, but what matters is the end result. Does it really matter why?