https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/02/us/politics/tax-plan-republicans.html
https://twitter.com/JohnJHarwood?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author
So not looking too good, and definitely will screw over people in high local/state tax states.
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Republicans unveil Tax bill to middling reviews
- Thread starter Kimawolf
- Start date
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/02/us/politics/tax-plan-republicans.html
https://twitter.com/JohnJHarwood?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author
So not looking too good, and definitely will screw over people in high local/state tax states.
So, part of me says it actually makes sense that high tax states don't get special treatment. Like, right now, taxpayers in high tax states pay artificially low federal taxes due to deductions from the higher state taxes. Presumably, their state taxes benefit them, so the high tax states are effectively taking money from lower tax states.
BUT, the more frugal states almost always get more federal dollars per capita, so it kinda evens out.
BUT, the more frugal states almost always get more federal dollars per capita, so it kinda evens out.
Wolfgunblood Garopa
Member
Sticking it to Americans in blue states is part of the plan.
I don't understand how this is comes from Republicans.
Usually, republicans are for small government. By eliminating the state income tax deduction, they are effectively increasing peoples tax burden in those states that have it, and effectively increasing their federal taxes. This is not republican.
Another observation. If you are married and the dual incomes produce a total of $100K, you fall in the 25% tax bracket, incomes $74 and $153K. This means you would pay $10,452.50 plus 25% of the excess over $75,900 ( https://taxfoundation.org/2017-tax-brackets/ ) . With this plan, this same family would be grouped with those making up to $260K. There is a big difference between earning $100K and $260K. Why should those be taxed the same?
Increasing the standard deduction does nothing for those making less than $50K, I guess it helps those in the 25% bracket........
This tax plan seems like an increase to middle to upper middle class taxes and anyone living in a state with a state income tax.
Usually, republicans are for small government. By eliminating the state income tax deduction, they are effectively increasing peoples tax burden in those states that have it, and effectively increasing their federal taxes. This is not republican.
Another observation. If you are married and the dual incomes produce a total of $100K, you fall in the 25% tax bracket, incomes $74 and $153K. This means you would pay $10,452.50 plus 25% of the excess over $75,900 ( https://taxfoundation.org/2017-tax-brackets/ ) . With this plan, this same family would be grouped with those making up to $260K. There is a big difference between earning $100K and $260K. Why should those be taxed the same?
Increasing the standard deduction does nothing for those making less than $50K, I guess it helps those in the 25% bracket........
This tax plan seems like an increase to middle to upper middle class taxes and anyone living in a state with a state income tax.
Wolfgunblood Garopa
Member
The only real priority is as conservative as it gets- lower the corporate tax rate at any cost.
Lastgengamer
Member
Yeah this sounds like more corporate walfare. Hopefully this is dead on arrival.
Wow...Trump has personally fucked me at every turn. I would definitely fall into this bracket and with the subsidies gone in Obamacare, i'm paying more there too. Is it wrong to hope he gets cancer?
Croatoan
They/Them A-10 Warthog
Ugh.
You know what I would really like in a tax reform bill? Basically a version of the "Fair Tax" where instead of taxing income we put a nationwide sales tax on everything. Could even tax things brought into the US but paid for overseas.
Its such a simple system that doesn't need tax brackets and could even be beneficial for the poor as they could be Tax exempt.
I live in Texas which is a "Fair Tax" state. We have no income tax and the state runs on property and sales taxes. It works pretty damn well.
You know what I would really like in a tax reform bill? Basically a version of the "Fair Tax" where instead of taxing income we put a nationwide sales tax on everything. Could even tax things brought into the US but paid for overseas.
Its such a simple system that doesn't need tax brackets and could even be beneficial for the poor as they could be Tax exempt.
I live in Texas which is a "Fair Tax" state. We have no income tax and the state runs on property and sales taxes. It works pretty damn well.
Schnozberry
Member
Well, except for making home ownership out of reach for most low income earners because of the sky high property tax rates.
tkscz
Member
Which NEVER works long term. This eventually increases our Federal Debt and causing inflation. Getting less money from taxes is a bad idea.
deadscreensky
Member
It works for their actual purpose ("starving the beast"), but yeah, it's definitely bad for 99% of the population.
Sosokrates
Report me if I continue to console war
Im confused, wouldent a couple earning 260k be at 33% plus 33% on the excess after 90k on the current tax system, but on the republican new tax plan they would go down to 25%?
The more important question is can the "married filing separately" statues still be used. If so, in the family situation listed above, that couple could file married filing separately where they acknowledge their married, but prefer to file separately. In that case, they would avoid the 35% tax bracket...........but I've been looking and I can't seem to find if that filing status is still in this tax plan.
If not, my wife and I would be paying essentially 33k more in taxes
Also a sales tax only solution will decimate some working class people and poor people. Sales tax will have to be raised to cover the missing federal/state taxes and it will make it almost impossible for them to get a car or house. We need a tax system which scales fairly. 0 percent on those earning 30k or less (no federal income tax taken from their checks) ans go up from there.
Yes, Im about 99% sure that his analysis is wrong.
If you make $100k in the new plan as a married couple you pay the 12% rate on an AGI of 76k (absent any other deductions)
Seems like most bills, some good and some bad. I would probably get slammed if they remove deducting state taxes from federal, and my healthcare is already going up from 1100 to 1500 a month.
But they are increasing child care credits so I guess that will offset it some.
Aaaaaaand.... this is of particular interest to me:
That would be fucking sweet.
But they are increasing child care credits so I guess that will offset it some.
Aaaaaaand.... this is of particular interest to me:
That would be fucking sweet.
prag16
Banned
It probably benefits people who already take the standard deduction. If you currently itemize, you probably get boned here. My property tax alone on our house is over $11,000/yr so we'll definitely get boned.
ChronotriggerJM
Member
They're planning on scrapping the $7500 tax credit for electric vehicles as well under this bill no?
Sigh.
Sigh.
rokkerkory
Member
GOP hurting middle and lower class that most
What's new
What's new
Fair tax is anything but. It overly taxes the poor. You dont pay tax on money you save and guess who saves the most....
They're increasing the Child Tax Credit but eliminating the child care deduction.
rokkerkory
Member
Just make me part of top 5% ill gladly pay 50% taxes
Sales taxes are some of the most regressive taxes you can have.
You want to see people start to squirm? Propose a wealth tax instead of an income tax.
From https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/02/us/politics/tax-plan-republicans.html
Adding some soon-to-expire tax credits for the working poor.
The goal is to get it all passed by Thanksgiving, from what I understand; that's in three weeks.
Adding some soon-to-expire tax credits for the working poor.
The goal is to get it all passed by Thanksgiving, from what I understand; that's in three weeks.
Sales and property taxes are both regressive taxes. The whole purpose of a progressive income tax system is to help offset those taxes that are regressive.
TheLaughingStock
Member
You are aware that the US has ran a net deficit over its lifetime and has 20+ trillion dollars of public debt correct? Inflation isn't spiraling out of control in 2017 and the US is one of the richest countries on Earth because there's no causality between the two variables. Less money from taxes can be a great idea depending on the circumstances.
RE Removing the credit to Federal from state taxes: Killing what is essentially a subsidy for mostly blue, high income states and areas is a good thing. And I'll probably be hit by it but so be it.
Most places that claim to be progressive tax the crap out of people, making it only affordable to the rich. The area gets gentrified and the poor are subsidized. Tax base shrinks and taxes then go up again.
Most places that claim to be progressive tax the crap out of people, making it only affordable to the rich. The area gets gentrified and the poor are subsidized. Tax base shrinks and taxes then go up again.
mercenar1e
Member
at tax season corporations pay a rate of 15% after they use loopholes ( which shouldnt exist in the first place) from 35%
The republicans want to change it to 20% but keep the loopholes as well.. at the end of the year were looking at corporations paying 5% after its all said and done.
The republicans want to change it to 20% but keep the loopholes as well.. at the end of the year were looking at corporations paying 5% after its all said and done.
Actually I'm middle class and this tax plan earns me more than a few vacations a year. Sounds good to me.
Of course you are. Don't you have a similar evil organization to run?
No they definitely are not
Yeah republicans have not been for smaller government since Richard Nixon era. They are for big government just a different form.
prag16
Banned
The middle class will be slammed in high cost of living areas. That's not a good thing.
I'm right around the median income for my (admittedly fairly affluent) town and will get a large tax increase under this plan.
bigedole
Member
Alright, so please bear with me guys. I've been a lurker for years and I'm going to try testing the waters here in some political discussion knowing that I'm someone most of you will disagree with. I hope we can all be respectful and have an enlightening conversation about these things.
My opinion as a very conservatively minded individual on fiscal issues is that this tax plan is at least a step in the right direction. Those saying no conservative person could support this are just being silly. Conservative citizens expect a tax cut to also be accompanied by nice cuts in government spending as well. Of course we don't want the deficit to grow. We want the government to spend less money on inefficient and wasteful programs.
For the corporate tax rate, this is definitely a step in the right direction. If the statutory rate of 35% isn't actually paid by anyone, it begs the question why is that the top rate? The top marginal rate in the US is currently among the highest in the world, and even if you account for deductions and "loop-holes", the US is still near the top of the pack:
http://www.npr.org/2017/08/07/54179...e-the-highest-corporate-tax-rate-in-the-world
This will simply boil down to a matter of opinion, either you think businesses in the US should pay a lot of their money to the government, or you don't. I personally want the US to be a place that encourages companies to do their business domestically and absolutely support lowering the corporate tax rate.
Next, anyone claiming that their taxes are going to go up with this plan either don't understand the plan, are outright lying, or they make between $238k and $425k and their rate is going to go up 2%. The vast majority of earners in the US fall into the 19k to 77k bracket and their rate is dropping 3%. We're losing the state income tax deduction but the doubling of the standard deduction will result in more than balancing that out for 70% of all tax filers. When it's all said and done, the only group that may see an increase in taxes is the Upper Middle Class to straight up Rich, and the impact will be small if it exists at all. I found this to be a good summary of the changes and how they might impact various people and entities:
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive...harts-to-explain-the-republican-tax-plan.html
If, at the end of the day, anyone is just screaming about how bad this is, then they're a partisan shill who isn't making an attempt to consider this honestly and openly. This isn't great for the mega rich, it's also a wash for the poor. It lowers the corporate tax rate, adds some new credits and lowers the tax rate for the middle class, and raises taxes on (what I would consider) wealthy people a small amount.
My opinion as a very conservatively minded individual on fiscal issues is that this tax plan is at least a step in the right direction. Those saying no conservative person could support this are just being silly. Conservative citizens expect a tax cut to also be accompanied by nice cuts in government spending as well. Of course we don't want the deficit to grow. We want the government to spend less money on inefficient and wasteful programs.
For the corporate tax rate, this is definitely a step in the right direction. If the statutory rate of 35% isn't actually paid by anyone, it begs the question why is that the top rate? The top marginal rate in the US is currently among the highest in the world, and even if you account for deductions and "loop-holes", the US is still near the top of the pack:
http://www.npr.org/2017/08/07/54179...e-the-highest-corporate-tax-rate-in-the-world
This will simply boil down to a matter of opinion, either you think businesses in the US should pay a lot of their money to the government, or you don't. I personally want the US to be a place that encourages companies to do their business domestically and absolutely support lowering the corporate tax rate.
Next, anyone claiming that their taxes are going to go up with this plan either don't understand the plan, are outright lying, or they make between $238k and $425k and their rate is going to go up 2%. The vast majority of earners in the US fall into the 19k to 77k bracket and their rate is dropping 3%. We're losing the state income tax deduction but the doubling of the standard deduction will result in more than balancing that out for 70% of all tax filers. When it's all said and done, the only group that may see an increase in taxes is the Upper Middle Class to straight up Rich, and the impact will be small if it exists at all. I found this to be a good summary of the changes and how they might impact various people and entities:
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive...harts-to-explain-the-republican-tax-plan.html
If, at the end of the day, anyone is just screaming about how bad this is, then they're a partisan shill who isn't making an attempt to consider this honestly and openly. This isn't great for the mega rich, it's also a wash for the poor. It lowers the corporate tax rate, adds some new credits and lowers the tax rate for the middle class, and raises taxes on (what I would consider) wealthy people a small amount.
Codeblew
Member
Here is a tax calculator to see what you will save:
http://tpc-election-calculator.urban.org/
Hit the "create your own scenario" button.
I save over 1k in a high state-tax state. Works for me.
http://tpc-election-calculator.urban.org/
Hit the "create your own scenario" button.
I save over 1k in a high state-tax state. Works for me.
Zoe
Member
That's from the election proposals.
Wolfgunblood Garopa
Member
The current economic climate in the US is absolutely baffling, how we allow it to continue. How we allow ourselves to explain away the enormous and unnecessary struggle that so many American families find themselves in. The wealth gap in a country with this much wealth and resources is criminal. Any economic policy, including tax reform, should first and foremost attempt to address this entirely immoral and unethical economy.
Some individuals in low or no local income tax states will benefit, sure. Small businesses who are structured as pass through businesses will benefit. However, Trump's company is also structured as a pass through. More and more large corporations are taking advantage of this as well.
This bill is primarily corporate welfare and a tax cut for the rich. This goes against any moral or ethical tax reform in a country with so many struggling communities, and the few at the very top would continue to get even more breaks with this tax bill. Higher and higher corporate profits has never been the solution. They've been doing just fine the past decade while lower and middle class America has continued to struggle.
This tax bill is more crusty, old, proven bad conservative economic policy. We've been through this before at least 3 times since Reagan. We need policy that addresses the unbelievable wealth gap and limited class mobility. If it doesn't address that before anything else, it doesn't deserve anyone's time.
I believe that's the one that was set up before the election (it's even labeled "Election Calculator" and the result section compares the outcomes of Trump's plan to Clinton's), which was a different tax plan than the one that is currently being proposed.
If so, any result you get from that calculator is unlikely to be what your actual results would be under the proposed plan.
bigedole
Member
I find most of what you said to be really, really horribly misguided. I offered an analytical breakdown of the proposed tax plan and it is clearly demonstrable with numbers how the vast majority of american citizens will save money. Your response is a platitude laden and emotional explanation of "what's wrong with our country". How can we even have a discussion this way? Do you want to tax corporations at 75%? Do you think anyone who makes over a million should pay 90%? 80%? What are you suggesting exactly? This boards problem has always been its participants eagerness to argue over emotional philosophies, but what exactly do you want to change? I don't want to argue over whose opinion is better. I want to discuss what is good or bad about specific ideas.
You do realize how the wealthy and rich make their wealth in this country right? I hope you're not naïve enough to think the CEO of ExxonMobile or Warren buffet care what their salaries are? You do realize that they're proposing the corporate tax WITH the loopholes still in place right? This tax plan is nothing more than a way to get more profits to wall street through more money for companies listed on the stock exchange. There's no requirements for how these companies should spend this extra 15% in profits. They will spend it by giving it to shareholders. The vast majority of money in the stock exchange is held by the super rich/wealthy.
Keep sipping that cool aid man. You call people shills yet you clearly are ok with having the sheets pulled over your eyes and not bothering to look at who's actually benefiting. This tax plan isn't hurting upper middle class and the rich...it's hurting upper middle class with no regard to cost of living. Here's another thing you should look up, which "class" contribute the most the economy in the US. It's not the lower class, middle class, or the super rich. It's the upper middle class.
I just love how some people think that the corporate tax rate cut WITH the loopholes in place will spur the economy. The effective tax rate that companies pay now is close to 15-20%. With now an extra 15% of profit, they won't just magically start producing more items or hiring more people. It's a pipe dream and some people are dumb enough to believe it.
bigedole
Member
So, you seem to think corporations should not make as much money as they do. Is that your general stance? My stance is that I want the US to make the business environment more encouraging for companies to keep their profits in our domestic infrastructure, period.
Also, can we please stop with saying that companies don't actually pay the 35-39.1% corporate tax rate but then claim that they're going to get an extra 15% profit with this plan? You can't have it both ways. No one's going to go from paying 20% to 5%, the tax plan is specifically trying to close some loopholes and remove some deductions.
Wolfgunblood Garopa
Member
I'm sorry, I'm probably not your gaffer here. This is a corporate welfare bill, however much they padded it with half measures meant to grease the wheels for 'sensible' people like yourself.
It's in there to attack blue states which typically have higher taxes.