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[Chozofication_]

Highest capacity NAND is 7 cents a gigabyte right now, does not include the SSD controller and package...Seems like too much when that cost could go to the rest of the system.

Been saying that something like 24GB of NAND on the motherboard caching a larger capacity hard drive automatically will be the best solution for next gen.

Dude that's only $70 for 1tb! I think we're going to be pleasantly surprised by next gen storage.

 

[Dabaus]

From the rumor:

Studios in current negotiations

- Asobo Studio
- IO Interactive
- Platinum Games
-Turtle Rock Studios
-Blue Point Games
-Relic Entertainment
-The Farm 51


- And a few more studios from UK, France, Germany, Poland, Ukraine, Finland, Canada, Japan, Korea.

- Microsoft wants great talents and diversity around the world

- They don't have a target number or something like that

- Next Xbox launch game: Halo Infinite (crossgen), Forza Motorsport (crossgen + first ray tracing game), Age of Empires 4 (crossgen) , Perfect Dark, Killer instinct, Bleeding Edge (crossgen)

-and few more surprises, the first year of xbox next will be the best lineup of all time. Some old franchise will return, new IPs from new devs, exclusive Japan games, exclusive spy game, and a lot more.

- Microsoft have some bomb to drop in the next months, crazy shits are happening, games you expect, some games you don't expect at all, some BIG acquisition, some big crazy service and much more.

- i want to tell a lot more things, but I don't want to drop all the surprises.

- I know some of you don't believe now, but as soon as possibile, a lot of this will come to the light.

A lot this sounds like fantasy. Why would platinum games, who have a good relationship with square enix and Nintendo, and have recently been more successful than ever on ps4 all of a sudden go MS exclusive? Keep in mind that Platinum almost went bankrupt because of the scale bound disaster.
Blue point would be a get, but like most the studios MS has a acquired so far none of those are that interesting or that big. Anything is possible but I don't believe a lot of it.

Edit: Both of the insiders at NPCera said platinum isn't up for consideration.

Also, how would this person be in a position to know Not only most of MS's plans, partners, and pricing structure but ALSO the spec of the PS5? That's some highly confidential information and hes casually throwing it out there.

 

[ethomaz]

We are reaching a point that apps don’t need more SystemRAM or VRAM that what we already have available.

The opposite modern GPUs are using faster and better compression algorithms that make the use of VRAM lower.

The tendency is if you don’t have an specific app like server apps to use huge amount of RAM that the RAM won’t incewase anymore.

 

[DeepEnigma]

We are reaching a point that apps don’t need more SystemRAM or VRAM that what we already have available.

The opposite modern GPUs are using faster and better compression algorithms that make the use of VRAM lower.

The tendency is if you don’t have an specific app like server apps to use huge amount of RAM that the RAM won’t incewase anymore.

I would rather have much higher memory bandwidth, than a larger unecessary pool just for the sake of.

 

[ethomaz]

I would rather have much higher memory bandwidth, than a larger unecessary pool just for the sake of.

Higher speeds is better than higher amount... the ideal is to have a balance but if you need to choose one speed is the first option.

But talking about the future NVIDIA GPUs require less bandwidth (speed) and VRAM than similar in power GPU from AMD just because nVidia is way ahead AMD is memory compression tech.

Same games with same code/texture using up to 28% less VRAM and bandwidth from GTX 980 to GTX 1080.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/10325/the-nvidia-geforce-gtx-1080-and-1070-founders-edition-review/8

 

[AgentP]

Dude that's only $70 for 1tb! I think we're going to be pleasantly surprised by next gen storage.

Which is a lot. They probably spend $20-$30 for HD now.

 

[Caio]

Maybe these are the specs of dev kit of Lockhart ? I think Anaconda should be more powerful.

 

[TeamGhobad]

do we really want SSD? i rather the money goes to other stuff.

 

[CrustyBritches]

Shouldn't it be a 4 GB DDR4 stick for the OS?

On PS4 Pro, they added 1GB DDR3 on the side to go with the 3GB they set aside already for the OS. According to an interview, the Pro gives back an extra .5GB at that point, so 5.5GB GDDR5 was available for games, 2.5GB GDDR5 for OS, and 1GB DDR3 for OS.

With 16GB GDDR6 you could split it to 8GB VRAM, 4GB System, and 4GB OS with an extra 1-2GB DDR3/DDR4 for OS spillover(running Netflix in the background, etc.). However, with 4GB for the OS already, they might not need anything on the side.

 

[REDRZA MWS]

I’d gladly buy the next console to suppirg SSD and gladly forgo the optical drive. Ive gone 100% digital this gen and with digital sharing its been BOGO the whole gen. Can the optical drive and put it into a SSD with a blazing UI and faster load times.

 

[abbyabs]

Going to need more than 1TB storage 2 TB should be minimum especially with 4k assets.

 

[ethomaz]

Dude that's only $70 for 1tb! I think we're going to be pleasantly surprised by next gen storage.

$70 is 3x or more 1TB HDD.

 

[LordOfChaos]

Dude that's only $70 for 1tb! I think we're going to be pleasantly surprised by next gen storage.

"Only" is triple what they spent on storage in 2013 on the PS4 and more than most major components in it, except for the priciest, the APU. Going from the PS3 in 2006 to the PS4 in 2013 their storage cost remained the same within a dollar. I think they'll rather spend that BoM cost on other things, while having a caching solution for storage.

 

[sendit]

If this is the case...and...

Considering Microsoft will be purchasing SSDs in mass quantity. This will provide them with a discount. I can see two SKUs coming out. One with a 500 GB SSD and another with a 1 TB SSD.

 

[Imtjnotu]

On PS4 Pro, they added 1GB DDR3 on the side to go with the 3GB they set aside already for the OS. According to an interview, the Pro gives back an extra .5GB at that point, so 5.5GB GDDR5 was available for games, 2.5GB GDDR5 for OS, and 1GB DDR3 for OS.

With 16GB GDDR6 you could split it to 8GB VRAM, 4GB System, and 4GB OS with an extra 1-2GB DDR3/DDR4 for OS spillover(running Netflix in the background, etc.). However, with 4GB for the OS already, they might not need anything on the side.

But the unified pool negates system ram right? It's all pulled and sent from the same area instead of the gpu having to double dip.

 

[CrustyBritches]

But the unified pool negates system ram right? It's all pulled and sent from the same area instead of the gpu having to double dip.

I don't understand the question?

There's 16GB GDDR6 and of that, 4GB is reserved for the OS. That leaves 12GB for game use. Looking at PS4 games, typical memory usage splits 2:1 VRAM to System. I think you're misunderstanding my own estimates for game usage as saying there will be divided memory pools. Hopefully we're on the same page now. Yes, 16GB GDDR6 unified memory pool.

The talk of a side pool of DDR3 is speculation based on the PS4 Pro. Cerny said that some OS functions, like Netflix, could use slower memory like DDR3 so they added it. I speculated it might not be needed.

 

[ResilientBanana]

If this is the case...and...

Considering Microsoft will be purchasing SSDs in mass quantity. This will provide them with a discount. I can see two SKUs coming out. One with a 500 GB SSD and another with a 1 TB SSD.

Nope, otherwise, we would see the consoles of today coming out with 1TB SSD drives, but we don't.

 

[Pimpbaa]

Nope, otherwise, we would see the consoles of today coming out with 1TB SSD drives, but we don't.

There isn't as much as a benefit with current consoles compared to PC. Mostly due to to the weak jaguar cpu cores and possibly also due to MS and Sony reserving resources based around 5400 rpm drives (so downloading updates and such don't interrupt whatever game you are playing). The Ryzen cpu cores that are rumored to be in next gen consoles should be much more up to the task of benefiting from a SSD or a SSHD (I hope).

 

[ethomaz]

There isn't as much as a benefit with current consoles compared to PC. Mostly due to to the weak jaguar cpu cores and possibly also due to MS and Sony reserving resources based around 5400 rpm drives (so downloading updates and such don't interrupt whatever game you are playing). The Ryzen cpu cores that are rumored to be in next gen consoles should be much more up to the task of benefiting from a SSD or a SSHD (I hope).

CPU has little to no impact to the performance of and HDD... the logic CPU has to process to tell a HDD to move, create, delete an archive is pretty imperceptible even in old CPUs weaker than Jaguar.

In fact 99% of time the CPU will be free to do anything else waiting the I/O of the HDD.

Most difference in HDD and SSD is related to data loading to VRAM that will be used by GPU processing.

 

[Sejan]

I don't believe that there is any way in the world that the next MS and Sony consoles will be able to only have 1TB of storage in any situation. Games this generation are already pushing 100gb or more. Adding higher quality textures and models will easily push next generation games to even larger sizes. I’d say 2tb will be the minimum next generation that makes any kind of real sense. Any smaller and I would expect a much smaller generational leap.

 

[RPS37]

I don't believe that there is any way in the world that the next MS and Sony consoles will be able to only have 1TB of storage in any situation. Games this generation are already pushing 100gb or more. Adding higher quality textures and models will easily push next generation games to even larger sizes. I’d say 2tb will be the minimum next generation that makes any kind of real sense. Any smaller and I would expect a much smaller generational leap.

Exactly. I have like a 3TB external HD plugged in to my Xbox and it’s getting pretty low on space.

 

[Screamer-RSA]

wccftech?? Hahaha naah

 

[Texas Pride]

For a super low price of $799*.

*Credit plans available.

If you give up your first born child you get the "secret sauce" version with unlimited power of the cloud and self evolving specs for the whole gen. Unless it too bombs and 4 years later they release an upgrade and you can do it all over again!

Even at $599 they'd be taking a loss. It's nice to want things.

 

[Pimpbaa]

CPU has little to no impact to the performance of and HDD... the logic CPU has to process to tell a HDD to move, create, delete an archive is pretty imperceptible even in old CPUs weaker than Jaguar.

In fact 99% of time the CPU will be free to do anything else waiting the I/O of the HDD.

Most difference in HDD and SSD is related to data loading to VRAM that will be used by GPU processing.

Hmm, if true then Sony and MS must be limiting the transfer speeds of their consoles by a great deal.

 

[bhunachicken]

The thing is for all the jokes,
Sony:
PS1 - 3MB
PS2 - 36MB (12x more than PS1 )
PS3 - 512MB (14x more than PS2)
PS4 - 8192MB (16x more than PS3)
PS5 - ?????

Microsoft:
Xbox - 64MB
360 - 522MB (approx. 8x more than Xbox)
One - 8224MB (approx. 16x more than 360)
Xbox 4 - ?????

Gosh, I do like puzzles.

Well, for the PlayStation, it looks like it's the previous increase + 2. So, PS5 will be 18x, meaning 144GB of RAM.

For Xbox, it looks like it's double the previous increase. So, Xbox 4 will be 32x, meaning 256GB of RAM.

If my maths is right, Xbox has next gen, easy.

 

[ethomaz]

Hmm, if true then Sony and MS must be limiting the transfer speeds of their consoles by a great deal.

Well they use a old and slower SATAII connector that reaches theoretical 3Gb/s.

For example SATAIII runs at 6GB/s so it can reaches theoretical 600MB/s of transfer speeds.

That is why SSDs are not that great on consoles... because normal SSD can reach around 500-600MB/s that only SATAIII or better connector like M2 can handle.

These SSD with NVMe can reach 900 or more MB/s... some even 1500MB/s.

PS4 Pro and X have SATAIII support but again with a big downside... at least on PS4 Pro the SATAIII is attached to a internal USB bus... it is not a direct interface so the speeds are reduced too... it is better than SATAII thought.

That way of implement the SATA controller over a USB bus limit the speeds on consoles too.

Remember that is made to make them cheaper.

Most cheaper PC motherboards do that too sharing the slower bus with all interfaces... that to cut costs... expensive motherboard works way faster than these cheaper.

 

[Insane Metal]

I have a feeling both companies are trying really hard to get SSDs into their consoles.

 

[thelawof4]

I guess most of the posters agree that Microsoft and Sony will add SSDs in some form but are there even noticeable improvements when using NVME instead of normal SSDs? I know that most games released until today don't need more than a normal SSD.

What would be even theoretically possible with a 2000 mb/s vs. a 500 mb/s SSD? Performance? Anything?

 

[Insane Metal]

I guess most of the posters agree that Microsoft and Sony will add SSDs in some form but are there even noticeable improvements when using NVME instead of normal SSDs? I know that most games released until today don't need more than a normal SSD.

What would be even theoretically possible with a 2000 mb/s vs. a 500 mb/s SSD? Performance? Anything?

Loading times would improve dramatically. Also texture pop-ins would reduce considerably.

 

[JareBear: Remastered]

I guess most of the posters agree that Microsoft and Sony will add SSDs in some form

If you’re including hybrid drives in this, then yes. Full fledged SSDs? No I don’t think most of us agree on that

 

[SonGoku]

....So you would rather retain one of the biggest bottlenecks in computing history to have more ram? Good thing you aren't an engineer.

Good thing you aren't one either, I'll spell out for you: next gen will rely on traditional HDDs, if they are not sufficient a hybrid system will be put in place. But a stand alone ssd solution its not gonna happen, its benefits don't justify the sacrifices

also nice straw man you missed the point entirely

Waste of resources? The same thing could be said about 32GB of GDDR6 if the GPU isn't fast enough to take advantage of it for gaming?. Balance is also important why have 32GB of GDDR6 if it's being held back by the rest of the system?

https://www.crucial.com/usa/en/ct1000p1ssd8

Its a waste of resources in the sense that a hybrid system with a built in cache of 100GB would have all the benefits without the ridiculous pricing that would force you to sacrifice GPU performance or memory pool or both.

32GB is also way below the too much ram mark for a 12tf+ GPU as long as it has enough bandwidth and games are designed around the setup all of it will be consumed and allow for bigger and richer worlds, there will be no wasted memory as long as games are designed around the spec

We are reaching a point that apps don’t need more SystemRAM or VRAM that what we already have available.

That's true of any gen, games are currently designed around 5GB TOTAL for both system and video. Next gen will change that

 

[DeepEnigma]

If you’re including hybrid drives in this, then yes. Full fledged SSDs? No I don’t think most of us agree on that

I can see this at most, but even then I'm not holding my breath. Maybe they'll do something like an onboard cache controller that would work with standard drives (built in hybrid), as well as be set up to take full advantage of SSDs in the controllers.

 

[ZywyPL]

I guess most of the posters agree that Microsoft and Sony will add SSDs in some form but are there even noticeable improvements when using NVME instead of normal SSDs? I know that most games released until today don't need more than a normal SSD.

What would be even theoretically possible with a 2000 mb/s vs. a 500 mb/s SSD? Performance? Anything?

The difference is none, literally (at least as far as gaming goes):




Going for NVMe is just plain stupid, even SATA-based SSD would be a waste of money - current-gen 4K games already take 100-150GB of space, so a 1TB drive in a next-gen console would allow to store 6-8 games at best, even 2TB seems to be too small. IMHO 4TB is a must, at least in the premium models. Bare in mind we won't see Jaguar CPU anymore, which was the primary limiting factor, as PS4 Pro with SATA3 showed.

 

[thelawof4]

The difference is none...

Going for NVMe is just plain stupid...

evenSATA-based SSD would be a waste of money...

I was just about to link the same video and i agree with you.

But i think SATA SSDs would be a very noticable improvement in terms of loading times.

That is also why i ask if it would be possible for future games to benefit from nvme storage in some way? Any examples?

 

[Blade2.0]

Sounds good. I'll probably do next Xbox first since I had aps4 this gen and never had the Xbox

 

[thelawof4]

I can see this at most, but even then I'm not holding my breath. Maybe they'll do something like an onboard cache controller that would work with standard drives (built in hybrid), as well as be set up to take full advantage of SSDs in the controllers.

That seems like the most reasonable thing they could do if prices are too high i guess.

 

[sendit]

Good thing you aren't one either, I'll spell out for you: next gen will rely on traditional HDDs, if they are not sufficient a hybrid system will be put in place. But a stand alone ssd solution its not gonna happen, its benefits don't justify the sacrifices

also nice straw man you missed the point entirely

Its a waste of resources in the sense that a hybrid system with a built in cache of 100GB would have all the benefits without the ridiculous pricing that would force you to sacrifice GPU performance or memory pool or both.

32GB is also way below the too much ram mark for a 12tf+ GPU as long as it has enough bandwidth and games are designed around the setup all of it will be consumed and allow for bigger and richer worlds, there will be no wasted memory as long as games are designed around the spec

That's true of any gen, games are currently designed around 5GB TOTAL for both system and video. Next gen will change that

Funny. Not according to my job title . However, lets not get in to that. A hybrid system with built in cache sounds very much like the failed system design of the Xbox One with 32 MB of esram. Also, keep dreaming about 32GB of ram. You'll have a better chance seeing a SSD drive.

https://www.guru3d.com/news-story/gddr6-significantly-more-expensive-than-gddr5.html

11.68 * 32 = ~373

 

[SonGoku]

Funny. Not according to my job title . However, lets not get in to that.

The fact that you need to bring the job card tells me you are insecure.

. A hybrid system with built in cache sounds very much like the failed system design of the Xbox One with 32 MB of esram.

This comment alone makes me question your "job". However, lets not get in to that
The two are not even remotely comparable. A built in cache would have more than sufficient space to store streaming assets, the only downside would be longer initial load times everytime you swap a game or two depending of how much space streaming assets take.

Also, keep dreaming about 32GB of ram.

https://www.guru3d.com/news-story/gddr6-significantly-more-expensive-than-gddr5.html

11.68 * 32 = ~373

Im predicting 24GB with a small possibility they might get 32GB. Never said it was a sure thing
Also hardware manufacturers get special deals via high volume long term contracts the info you provided is based on 2000 units which is a far cry from a console launch which goes in the millions multiply that by 32 and you get a close to 100 million units first year alone. Current memory prices are inflated anyways

seeing a SSD drive.

Not gonna happen.

 

[onQ123]

Its a waste of resources in the sense that a hybrid system with a built in cache of 100GB would have all the benefits without the ridiculous pricing that would force you to sacrifice GPU performance or memory pool or both.

32GB is also way below the too much ram mark for a 12tf+ GPU as long as it has enough bandwidth and games are designed around the setup all of it will be consumed and allow for bigger and richer worlds, there will be no wasted memory as long as games are designed around the spec

That's true of any gen, games are currently designed around 5GB TOTAL for both system and video. Next gen will change that

Again what good is that powerful GPU & 32GB of GDDR6 if it's being stalled by a slow HDD?

Sure you could put 100GB of NVM on the package but how would you replace that memory if it starts to fail? ReRam might work but maybe 1TB of NVMe made the most sense to the people doing the research.

 

[Ascend]

Ray tracing would be a waste of the console's power. Even with next gen hardware, more appealing visuals can be achieved with traditional rasterization at playable framerates, rather than ray tracing, most likely. I'd be gladly proven wrong though.

 

[ResilientBanana]

Ray tracing would be a waste of the console's power. Even with next gen hardware, more appealing visuals can be achieved with traditional rasterization at playable framerates, rather than ray tracing, most likely. I'd be gladly proven wrong though.

Unless there is hardware dedicated to ray-tracing, you would be correct.

The SSD discussion is a bit out of hand, but I really think an SSD would be fantastic for next-gen games but it most likely wont happen. But to say it wouldn't help gaming and has no place in the gaming space is weird. I couldn't imagine my life as a PC gamer without my games loading nearly instantaneously. Has anyone ever played DOOM on Nightmare? I stopped playing on my old Xbox One and started playing on my PC. It's a world apart.

 

[onQ123]

Ray tracing would be a waste of the console's power. Even with next gen hardware, more appealing visuals can be achieved with traditional rasterization at playable framerates, rather than ray tracing, most likely. I'd be gladly proven wrong though.

Some things make more sense to use Ray-tracing so for these things you can use Ray-tracing.

 

[onQ123]

Unless there is hardware dedicated to ray-tracing, you would be correct.

The SSD discussion is a bit out of hand, but I really think an SSD would be fantastic for next-gen games but it most likely wont happen. But to say it wouldn't help gaming and has no place in the gaming space is weird. I couldn't imagine my life as a PC gamer without my games loading nearly instantaneously. Has anyone ever played DOOM on Nightmare? I stopped playing on my old Xbox One and started playing on my PC. It's a world apart.

https://wccftech.com/amd-radeon-vii-excellent-result-directml/

At last year’s Game Developers Conference 2018, Microsoft announced a framework “Windows ML” for developing machine learning based applications on the Windows 10 platform, and “DirectML” that makes it available from DirectX12.
We are currently experimenting with the preview version SDK of DirectML, but Radeon VII shows excellent results so far.

By the way, Radeon VII scored about 1.62 times the GeForce RTX 2080 in “Luxmark” which utilizes an OpenCL-based GPGPU-like ray tracing renderer.
Based on these facts, I think NVIDIA’s DLSS-like thing can be done with a GPGPU-like approach for our GPU.

 

[SonGoku]

Again what good is that powerful GPU & 32GB of GDDR6 if it's being stalled by a slow HDD?

Sure you could put 100GB of NVM on the package but how would you replace that memory if it starts to fail? ReRam might work but maybe 1TB of NVMe made the most sense to the people doing the research.

People doing the research lol? They made as much sense as the ones who came up with 6gb ssd
nvram should last 5 years, they could also make it swapable like the hdd, so those who want it can replace it with a larger one

Why would GPU be stalled, the only thing that would stall are initial load times

 

[onQ123]

People doing the research lol? They made as much sense as the ones who came up with 6gb ssd
nvram should last 5 years, they could also make it swapable like the hdd, so those who want it can replace it with a larger one

Why would GPU be stalled, the only thing that would stall are initial load times

If the game is using texture streaming the GPU will have to wait for a slow HDD

 

[ResilientBanana]

https://wccftech.com/amd-radeon-vii-excellent-result-directml/

I'll be damned. That's great news.

 

[SonGoku]

If the game is using texture streaming the GPU will have to wait for a slow HDD

Why would the game use texture streaming if it has a big pool of memory?
Im not against SSDs, im against them being the main drive in consoles because its not cost effective, a hybrid solution is the perfect compromise

I'll be damned. That's great news.

AMD could even try to develop something similar to NVIDIA’s Deep Learning Super-Sampling with a GPGPU approach instead.

This sounds like it will be easier to implement and therefor get mainstream adoption, especially considering consoles will have the tech.

 

[onQ123]

Why would the game use texture streaming if it has a big pool of memory?
Im not against SSDs, im against them being the main drive in consoles because its not cost effective, a hybrid solution is the perfect compromise

But 16GB isn't going to be big for a Next Gen console

 

[ResilientBanana]

But 16GB isn't going to be big for a Next Gen console

Why is 8 and 12GB of GDDR6 great for PC but not console?

 

[onQ123]

Why is 8 and 12GB of GDDR6 great for PC but not console?

PC's also have system ram to go along with that 8 & 12GB & they are upgradable