No one did that, stop trying to set up retarded straw men. I made a comparison to show how 32 GB in 7 years is not actually a lot.
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Rumor: Xbox 3 = 6-core CPU, 2GB of DDR3 Main RAM, 2 AMD GPUs w/ Unknown VRAM, At CES
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BoobPhysics101
Banned
Not true. People were claiming a few pages back 'LOL MY CELL PHONE HAS MORE RAM THAN A 360 AND ALMOST AS MUCH AS XBOX 3? FAIL!!!'
Chittagong
Gold Member
GDC 2004 was Allard's incomprehensible but awesome XNA keynote. They showed a bunch of really cool 3D and physics tech demos that wowed the audience, threw in some buzzwords and said all this is is XNA, although most of the audience realized that obviously XNA is not graphics middleware.
GDC 2005 was all about HD Era. They showed the first glimpse of the 360 UI and talked about HD everything. One out of four in the audience got a free Samsung TV (including myself!). I think there was a sneak peek of PGR3 thrown in for good measure. No console specs or direct reference to the console, however.
In this light it does feel early indeed for a Xbox 720 reveal - they have not told their story to the developer community at all yet publicly.
REMEMBER CITADEL
Banned
The Reach engine is heavily modified Halo 3 engine, and according to Frankie, Halo 4 engine will be heavily modified Reach engine.
[Nintex];34131377 said:
Sure, we've already seen independent next gen demonstrations from CryTek, Epic, perhaps even tri-Ace, just like we did back when Far Cry, Doom 3, Half-Life 2, S.T.A.L.K.E.R. and others started appearing last gen. However, GDC 2004 XNA demos were commissioned by Microsoft and specifically called next generation tech demos. The difference is obvious.
That's not "comparing them as one and the same", that would imply some kind of cost/speed/whatever comparison being made. That's just being (rightly, in my opinion) annoyed at the glacial pace of technical progress expected from consoles these days.
Syphon Filter
Member
pc games don't use more than 2 gigs most of the time, don't see whats wrong for that on consoles.
BoobPhysics101
Banned
No, that's people not understanding the huge quality/performance differences between types of RAM.
It's not just about amount, there's so many other factors. Anyone bringing up the amount of RAM in cell phones as a serious comparison is a bonehead. It's akin to being annoyed that a 550 hp Ferrari only seats two people when a 300 hp V6 Mustang can seat 4, and then claiming that the Mustang makes the Ferrari look bad.
"AAA" games are generally designed for systems with 512 MB of memory right now, so it's a wonder they're even using that much. Crysis, one of the few PC exclusive high-def titles at its release used up to 3GB, and that was 4 years ago. Do you want to be stuck on requirements that were surpassed 4 years ago for the next 7 years?
THE:MILKMAN
Member
When I said "devs", I meant like ND/Worldwide Studios who have a much bigger say of what is going into PS4.
As far as Crysis's 8GB demand......not happening IMO. Even the latest AMD 7970 has a 3GB buffer, why in the world would a console need 8GB of GDDR5/XDR memory? (I think Sony/MS will go single pool)
According to Google, ATI launched the first 1GB workstation graphics card in 2006. We are only up to 3GB desktop PC cards now...
4GB maybe, if they launch later rather than sooner.
It likely won't happen, but you said you were interested in what devs had to say on the matter, and that is probably the clearest recent statement by a major dev that we have.
I don't think a statement made by a developer closely affiliated with either of the console makers will be very useful in determining what's actually needed, since the answer will most likely be "You need to have [whatever their new box has] GB".
bgassassin
Member
What the others have been talking about is a Windows OS "imposed" limit, not a dev limit.
http://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/memory-limits-applications-windows/
And it shows they make good looking games just fine with that limit.
REMEMBER CITADEL
Banned
First of all, hardware is not utilized to the same extent in fixed spec systems and on the PC (memory subsystem architecture and bandwidth can be vastly different), you can't compare them directly. Secondly CryEngine 2 was very inefficient, something that's been rectified in CryEngine 3 (as demonstrated by Crysis 2 and Crysis ports to current gen consoles).
All I could find is this:
Maybe Frankie will shed some light on this...things are quite shady.
People often come up with this argument, but when you only compare the memory used by the game and not the whole system (which I've been doing throughout this thread) then I really don't see the point. Probably at least 90% of a game's memory use is in assets, and if you want those at the same fidelity they'll be the same size regardless of how "open" or "closed" your target platform is.
Anyway, if all of you are honestly that enthused about being stuck on 2 GB for for the next 7 years then who am I to argue. Maybe Gaben will make real PC versions a reality again before that and we can all be happy.
Nope, they made a new internal engine but used source code from all the Halo's. Take for example they took code from how the Warthog reacted in the first Halo.
Source: Inside The Development Of Halo 4
clutch.as.it.gets.
Member
Most of those "good looking" games fall apart upclose because of the use of not so fine low res textures and ingame assets. Take Batman AC: Nice looking game from the distance, but uplose the textures look ridiculous bad. To improve that devs need more RAM and after seven years 4GB should be a given.
bgassassin
Member
I hope we see the next, next gen before 2020.
Also looking at who's on the team(someone dig up that list we made) I expect nothing less than a graphical and artistic masterpiece.
Syphon Filter
Member
you serious?
I expect shortly after 2020. 2014 is the latest for next gen, so I expect we will have to wait at least 2022 before we see another one.
REMEMBER CITADEL
Banned
If your whole subsystem is faster, you can refresh the memory more often so you don't necessarily need as much of it, depending on how your code manages the assets. Besides, PC games can target resolutions higher than 1080p (something next gen consoles won't do), and assets are often not fully optimized because they don't need to be (or because it would be too time-consuming to optimize everything across all the possible settings - with fixed specs there's just one target setting).
bgassassin
Member
IMO that goes beyond just memory limits.
Yes.
NES - 1983
SNES - 1990
N64 - 1996
GC - 2001
Wii - 2006
Wii U - 2012
Wii R U - 2018/9
PS1 - 1994
PS2 - 2000
PS3 - 2006
PS4 - 2012/13
PS5 - 2019
Xbox - 2001
Xbox 360 - 2005
Xbox3 - 2012/13
Xbox4 - 2019
I'm just not a fan of these possibly extended generations. I don't think that's good for the health of console gaming.
diffusionx
Gold Member
The thing is, consoles have never really been about technical high-end stuff. They are about a dedicated, standardized gaming-box that developers can focus on and can be delivered to gamers as cheaply as possible.
This gen, yea, MS and Sony came out of the gate with all the talk of HD wonders and all this new info on the internets came where people talk about tech specs and DF came around to compare all the versions etc. etc. but that really is not what consoles are. They might have briefly been, I'm talking 12-24 months early in this generation, but really... that is an outlier.
Now the consoles are super old and getting hammered for not being as fancy as a PC, but really all a 360 or PS3 is today is a dedicated, standardized gaming-box that developers can focus on and gamers can buy relatively cheaply.
Syphon Filter
Member
This gen is the longest so you cant even bring up the other gens before it. I think gens will be longer this time. At least 6 -7 years is fine,no one wants to buy new hardware every time and also they better allow your account and other stuff to work.
gaming_noob
Member
Crossing my fingers that something 720 related will be shown tonight. MS needs to get the ball rolling so the other 2 can show us what they've got.
bgassassin
Member
This gen has been pretty much an anomaly all the way around. We had someone go underpowered. We had someone build an $800+ console. We had someone build a console with a stupidly high failure rate early on.
And if you noticed what I was projecting was about 6-7 years depending on release of the next consoles. You also make it sound like they'll be releasing new consoles every two years saying no on wants to buy hardware every time.
Personally I want console makers to cram as much hardware as they can in a console without taking a large loss to achieve it and then target newer hardware sooner.
REMEMBER CITADEL
Banned
That's not good for anyone but platform holders (even that's arguable) and tech junkies.
Which "subsytem" are you talking about here? From the context it seems like storage, but then your argument doesn't make any sense since PC is actually faster than consoles are in that.
That's what I remember it using -- maybe I had it modded. I just searched around a bit and found corroborating reports of at least 2 GB being in use, so that still leaves my point of being stuck on the same amount of memory for almost a decade.
BoobPhysics101
Banned
No it doesn't. Crysis didn't use anywhere close to 3 GB of RAM. Maybe after it had a memory leak, lol.
Consoles have and are meant to appeal to the larger market ("mass market" if you will). If you're a tech junkie, you wouldn't be looking at the console space at all. They have never been for tech junkies. Only one platform has.
He's assuming 6-7 years.
McHuj
Member
This is just pure speculation but Global Foundries announced that they started manufacturing 32nm chips at their new fab with volume production for the second half of the year. IBM is a partner with Global Foundries on this and these new chips will have eDRAM.
Since WiiU is supposed to be 45nm SOI, could this be the next Xbox CPU/SOC.
http://www.globalfoundries.com/newsroom/2012/20120109.aspx
Since WiiU is supposed to be 45nm SOI, could this be the next Xbox CPU/SOC.
http://www.globalfoundries.com/newsroom/2012/20120109.aspx
I think the loop will be at 28nm and if not that the ps4 will
evil solrac v3.0
Member
maybe main system RAM but not video RAM.
could be, Industry Gamers had a developer source who talked about this just days ago:
http://www.industrygamers.com/news/game-developer-expecting-xbox-720-andor-ps4-for-christmas-2012/
specialguy
Banned
Mmm, as I've shown before, very detailed 360 specs and schematics leaked in February 2004.
Of course, we have supposed spec leaks already such as this thread. The trick is determining which seem "real". Nothing so far passes that smell test for me.
REMEMBER CITADEL
Banned
Memory subsystem, but also the connections to other parts since all of them must operate in unison. Again, raw hardware specs are not all that matters and you can't directly compare what you have on PC with the same components in consoles. Proprietary buses, layers of abstraction in code, OS overhead and other factors can make a big difference in the end. Good luck running Uncharted 3 or Gears of War 3 on a PC with 512 MB of overall memory.
There are people who now game primarily on PC, but they would also be interested in powerful consoles, GAF is full of them. I agree that consoles are not really for them, that was kind of my point. People who frequent places like GAF are a minority of gamers, and people who demand powerhouse consoles that get refreshed ever 4-5 years are a minority of that minority.
Enough reason for MS to not let that happen again, I bet that's why Visceral looked like a crime scene early last year.
bgassassin
Member
How would targeting early profitable hardware be arguable for the holders? At the same time the idea would be that the builds would create easier development for devs which would hopefully keep their costs down due to efficiency.
REMEMBER CITADEL
Banned
Hardware profitable out of the gate is not arguable, but they also profit from generations lasting longer.
I don't follow you, what efficiency? Having to significantly upgrade their tech and embrace expensive higher quality assets every few years is not in most developers' interest. Engine and middleware makers are another story.
diffusionx
Gold Member
Yet Crysis arrived on the consoles this year, totally intact. So, really, the number of RAM gigs doesn't matter.
Not quite intact.
Exactly.
I'm personally all for longer generations.
Also when will we know if anything from Microsoft is shown at CES?
bgassassin
Member
The latter is because they finally got the hardware down to manageable costs. Now imagine manageable hardware costs through most of the generation.
I think you're take that from the perspective of what we saw this gen. This gen saw the SD to HD transition. I would believe going to higher resolutions from here on won't be the same kind a transition if for no other reason than having better understandings. And my fault for not being clearer, but the increased (or at least more noticeable to us) usage of engines and middleware combined with uncomplicated hardware is what I meant by efficiency.
LightofRohan
Member
At the very least I just want a codename for the project. It's annoying everyone saying different names; Xbox 3, Xbox Infinite, Xbox 720, Xbox 1080, Xbox Loop. Let's get a proper name at least...
childplease
Banned
These specs mean nothing to me if the next xbox only comes with kinect. The single most important aspect about the next consoles is the controller.
iamshadowlark
Banned
Yep. Alot of console devs had no clue what to do with shaders before this gen, ND for example.
You will get one.
Garcia el Gringo
Member
MS will make sure you have a traditional controller so you can keep buying Halo, Gears and Call of Duty.
If the rumors are true, I think kinect + a more ergonomic WiiU-esque tablet controller would be the perfect solution. Casual games could just use the touch screen, whereas hardcore games could make the most of the features of kinect without sacrificing complex gameplay.
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