One different special, change the others, don't make it slightly different versions of the same move, make actual different moves that have nothing to do with the others, otherwise make him an alt or discard him. Falco especially should just become an alt costume, he'd go back to the way he was in melee and actually let another character with a completely unique moveset take his spot.
...Fighting games don't work like that. The absence of "clones" does nothing to ensure that there will be more "unique" characters on the roster in their place. In fact, it's often quite the opposite, where less clones would mean just a smaller roster entirely. (Which would just inevitably produce another reason for people to bitch.)
Besides, again, you seem to be completely ignoring the fact that the differences between the different Space Animals are fundamentally as stark as Mario and Luigi. Not to mention that Luigi himself started out as a clone that continually separated himself from Mario as the games went on.
...Fighting games don't work like that. The absence of "clones" does nothing to ensure that there will be more "unique" characters on the roster in their place. In fact, it's often quite the opposite, where less clones would mean just a smaller roster entirely. (Which would just inevitably produce another reason for people to bitch.)
Besides, again, you seem to be completely ignoring the fact that the differences between the different Space Animals are fundamentally as stark as Mario and Luigi. Not to mention that Luigi himself started out as a clone that continually separated himself from Mario as the games went on.
The reason for there inclusion was a deadline. Most clone characters are last minute work, where developers started to work on those characters, but could not finish and game test them in time. Instead of leaving them out completely, they build a working move-set around them.
All this talking about clones made me remember how pissed I was at star wolf as the last unlockable character (at least I remember unlocking him last).
What a piece of shit character, I seriously would have preferred to have nothing than fucking starwolf and the third tank super smash move.
And then they don't make new/good star fox games, so why all the representation?
I really hope Smash 4 have alternate costumes. Actually, I don't really care about characters, if there's new characters, new stages, new objects, I'm happy, just add alternate costumes.
All this talking about clones made me remember how pissed I was at star wolf as the last unlockable character (at least I remember unlocking him last).
What a piece of shit character, I seriously would have preferred to have nothing than fucking starwolf and the third tank super smash move.
And then they don't make new/good star fox games, so why all the representation?
I agree with him that Wolf's not really a clone beyond his FS, but yes he tends to get disproportionately defensive whenever the topic gets brought up since he's a huge Star Fox fan.
BD is the only one who gets his fur ruffled over Wolf smack-talk, but the clone argument in general is such a tired discussion because nobody realizes what constitutes a "clone" and therefore they always end up sounding ignorant.
The main issue with that concept, is, at least looking at how the characters were differentiated from Melee to Brawl, it seemed like Sakurai was hesitating in completely revamping any past characters, because it'd basically turn them into a new character. That's likely why even when the clones got unique animations in Brawl, aside from a few things, like Final Smashes, their attacks remained mostly following the same patterns as their original movesets - so Falco still had his blaster, reflector, dash and fire attack, for example, even though they weren't just copy and paste versions of Fox's attacks with altered stats, and Ganondorf still continue melee only, in spite of receiving a completely new special attack.
Of course, then we get someone like Wolf in Brawl. His standard (A) moveset is completely different from Fox's, it's only his special attacks that have concept similarities, even though all of them have clear different animations and proprieties. Personally, on this point, I can see how something like Wolf's inclusion, rather than a completely unique character, could be considered a bad choice. I guess he was added just due to Fox's and Falco's popularity among Smash players, and not an actual attempt to represent Star Fox.
Melee's clones were a last minute thing heavily reusing assets from the base characters. Brawl's "clones" still had some asset reuse, mostly for Final Smashes and some transition animations, but they overall had much more unique animations and design work put into them, which I'm not sure was a good choice, considering how most players still just consider them "clones" anyway. It really seems like the extra effort that was put on them was pointless to a large part of the audience.
I still hold that they'd have been better off keeping the clones Melee style, and just inflating the roster with more clones with the extra time/resources they'd have then. That way, at least, we could have gotten more new faces among the unlockable cast. I'd have loved to see, say, the Black Knight randomly popping up as an Ike clone.
Two things:
1 - quality of game as well as relevance don't reflect whether a character deserves in or not. Sonic for instance has been shit during Brawl's release, and Kid Icarus is pretty much "irrelevant" during Brawl.
2 - barring Final Smash, Wolf is pretty much a unique character whose fighting style (feral martial arts) is pretty new to Smash.
I agree with him that Wolf's not really a clone beyond his FS, but yes he tends to get disproportionately defensive whenever the topic gets brought up since he's a huge Star Fox fan.
BD is the only one who gets his fur ruffled over Wolf smack-talk, but the clone argument in general is such a tired discussion because nobody realizes what constitutes a "clone" and therefore they always end up sounding ignorant.
Heh, I got ripped to shreds in the Smash Community thread for daring to suggest Wolf was a clone. "His Side B goes diagonally instead of horizontally!". C'mon guys. C'mon.
Heh, I got ripped to shreds in the Smash Community thread for daring to suggest Wolf was a clone. "His Side B goes diagonally instead of horizontally!". C'mon guys. C'mon.
Heh, I got ripped to shreds in the Smash Community thread for daring to suggest Wolf was a clone. "His Side B goes diagonally instead of horizontally!". C'mon guys. C'mon.
Pretty much everything about his moveset is different. To call Wolf a clone is to look at the most superficial aspects of his moveset and judge him based on that.
If you were going to call Lucas or Ganondorf a clone, I could understand where you would be coming from (although I still wouldn't entirely agree), but Wolf is obviously not a clone.
Don't understand why people want Roy back so much, this coming from a huge FE fan and somebody that used him in melee over Marth. Roy was cool but there's no real reason for his return in anything aside from a alt costume for like Chrom or Ike really. He was in Melee as an advertisement for his upcoming game, and they didn't even bother to give him a moveset that better corresponds to his in-game self, like a projectile since the Sword of Seals can actually do that in FE6. Then they basically copied and pasted his moveset onto Marth, something that made even less sense.
Roy was added to promote the entire franchise, not just as an advertisement for his upcoming game.
Roy was a clone in Melee because he was a last-minute addition, so they didn't have time to give him an unique move set, especially when Sakurai was also adding five other clones (Ganondorf, Dr. Mario, Pichu, Falco and Young Link). If he returned for Brawl, he would likely be at least a semi-clone but much more unique than he was in Brawl. Given the trajectory of clones from Melee to Brawl, Roy would at least be as unique as Falco was in Brawl and perhaps even as unique as Wolf.
For Old Snake I say it's not likely. MGS4 is still PS exclusive after everything and while it doesn't seem like a great big deal since Old Snake is still Solid Snake, I don't see them using a version of him that hasn't even appeared on a Nintendo system.
Dante was purely for advertising's sake. They avoided giving him a fleshed out moveset to avoid spoilers.
Big Daddy IIRC was a weird case. I think I heard that Ken Levine had something to do with his inclusion, which would explain why it's a generic Big Daddy instead of Subject Delta from 2 (who is basically interchangeable with the moveset) and the Colombia stages instead of Rapture.
Also does anyone know how long the Nintendo Direct goes for? And when Smash might be shown? I don't want to wait until tomorrow to see it, but it's not at a great time (12 AM).
Also does anyone know how long the Nintendo Direct goes for? And when Smash might be shown? I don't want to wait until tomorrow to see it, but it's not at a great time (12 AM).
