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SALES-AGE: Why the Wii will be getting Japanese exclusives, but not Western. Part II.

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
SALES-AGE: Why the Wii will be getting Japanese exclusives (but not Western!) AGAIN

It's been more than 3 months since I made the assertion that the Wii, despite being the worldwide leader in this-gen hardware sales, would never be getting major Western exclusives, but should be getting major Japanese exclusives. I suggested that the Wii sales in Japan are so far and above anything else (we're talking PS2 levels) that we should see those soon. I also said that the American lead by the 360 (in combination with the PS3), combined with developer and audience taste (they hate the Wii), means that the Wii will never see the games that once made it to the PS2 (ie, GTA).

As we approach E3, how does the theory hold up? Do sales still reflect the same trends? Will something suddenly change despite obvious Developer/Publisher decisions? I attempt to answer these questions here:

Japanese Hardware Sales

Whoa. MGS4 anybody? Looks like it made a nice two week impact but every other indicator of continued sales health puts the PS3 back to 8k-10k per week sales in the next few weeks. So basically nothing has changed: The Wii is the PS2, the PS3 is the GC, and the 360 is irrelevant. These charts show why my original assertion still carries weight, if not more so today than it did 3 months ago:

mc-weekly-line-82.jpg


[ ] What you see above is what big time games might have done for the PS3 if they had shorter development cycles and had released more quickly out of the gate. If the big games release closer together, does the PS3 start building momentum rather than seeing many of those units sold back to used hardware dealers? No, probably not. But it certainly couldn't have hurt.

mc-marketshare-pie-82.jpg


mc-marketshare-line-82.jpg


mc-LTDs-82.jpg


Take a moment to look back at the OLD ANALYSIS. You'll notice that in 3 months:
[ ] The Wii sold 700k units.
[ ] The PS3 sold 230k units.

Why the Wii should be getting Japanese Exclusives ANY DAY NOW!
If you actually did look at the OP, or can do basic math, you'll see that the Wii gained another 500k unit foothold over the PS3. If you don't like math, that's projected out to 2 million per year on top of the already 4 million lead that it starts with:

mc-wii-lead-82.jpg




US Hardware Sales
Now here's the hard part. Last time, I said that Western devs would never make huge exclusives for the Wii and I had a convincing argument why: the 360 and the PS3, combined with audience taste, had no reason to invest money into the Wii when they might lose sales from the reduced hardware capability and the potential lack of audience interest. Now? Let's look:

*Please note: NPD exact totals removed because of privacy rules/laws/no bannage wanted*
NPD-MONTHLY-0508.jpg


NPD-LTD-0508.jpg


NPD-MS-PIE-0508.jpg


NPD-MS-LINE-0508.jpg


Refer back to the OLD ANALYSIS, again. What do you see?
[ ] The 360 sold 700k units in 3 months.
[ ] The PS3 sold 600k units in 3 months.
[ ] The Wii sold 2.2 million units in 3 months.

Why the Wii will not be getting US exclusi...wait. What?

NPD-NEXTGEN-LEAD-0508.jpg


This kinda changes things doesn't it? 360 won't be able to claim the highest sales in the US in about a week from now. Combined, the 360 and PS3 next-gen juggernaut is losing their momentum against the Wii, and GTAIV was the hardware dud 'heard round the world.

Still, I stand by my original assertion: major western exclusives WILL NOT be coming to the Wii. Why? Even if GTAIV didn't move hardware as much as expected for either console, it sold more copies than the Bible. HUGE. The Wii's worldwide sales are irrelevant:

1. Western devs don't care about Japan, at least in relation to their major exclusives.

2. Western devs are focusing on the American hardcore audience, and will continue to develop major exclusives for the PS3/360/PC user.

3. Western devs believe that they can sell more copies of bigname hardcore games as multiplatform next-gen titles than they could if they developed a visually less-appealing version for the Wii.

Conclusion:
I believe we'll be hearing about a pretty shocking megaton Japanese exclusive announcement in the short term (E3), and I doubt we'll ever hear Western devs ever even bother.

Major assumptions
Assumptions do not necessarily make any of the above true or any of the below real.

[ ] That Japanese Devs value the Japanese public's buying habits over the Western public's buying habits. (and that they value money).

[ ] That *exclusive* in this context means hardcore big-name, big-budget games that are targeted toward a hardcore audience. In that assumption, we are automatically excluding every title that includes wii-exclusive content but is not itself exclusive, or other mass-market titles that don't apply specifically to the interest of this forum (Brain Age, EA Cheerleading, Ubisoft mini-game collections, etc)

[ ] That Western devs really do believe that the PS3 and 360 are the same exact audience and that developing games for them as one (or porting from one to the other) does not incur a significant enough cost to impact their development.

[ ] NPD exact numbers have been removed to protect various parties.

[ ] That this analysis and definitions therein is tailored towards GAF for the purposes of discussion.


Sources:
Donny112, JoshuaJSlone, various members of Sales-Age.

WW Chart: US - NPD, Canada - NPD, ,Japan - Media Create , Europe + Other - ELSPA, GfK, and other trackers / press releases and estimation where needed.
 

schuelma

Wastes hours checking old Famitsu software data, but that's why we love him.
Not much to argue with.

This has pretty much been my stance for half of a year- Western 3rd parties will continue to mainly focus on 360/PS3/PC but that the Wii will get its share of support, while in Japan the tides will shift towards the Wii getting the majority of core games. I think we've started to see that shift from Japan, but E3 and TGS should be more illustrative.
 
Personally i bought my wii for Nintendo games. So as long as i get Animal crossing wii and a few more gems that are up nintendo's sleeves i'm happy :p

I have my computer for 3rd party games. Blizzard alone keeps me quite happy. Team fortress 2 as well. and Civ 4~

only so much time in my day for games and Wii + PC suits me fine
 
Wii + PC = Western and Eastern fusion, for half the price. Why buy extra consoles when you have to do work on the PC anyway?
 

Jme

Member
More like CHARTS-AGE, amirite?

But those are some pretty sound figures, nothing to argue with. Unless Western devs aren't blind and look at overall figures alongside US figures if they plan on marketing their game outside of the US.

Also, Europe?
 

rs7k

Member
You're completely right. The Wii may be the best selling console, but the market is so different on that side that it makes no sense for PS3/360-centric devs to go there since there's so much competition from Nintendo and casual games by other third-parties.

The PS3 selling better helps it out as well as the already strong 360 software market. A Wii version of GTA4 probably wouldn't have sold as much as either next-gen version IMO, because like it or not, the Wii is a very casual, family-oriented console. Much more casual than the PS2 ever was.

I'm sure your arguments will get discredited by some hardcore people on here, but since third-parties are agreeing with you, you're obviously right.
 

Squash

Member
Bluemercury said:
you dont have a wii do you......

Actually, I do. I just don't care for the wiimote for anything other than Wii Sports. Am still waiting for Harvest Moon though, damn Natsume.
 

schuelma

Wastes hours checking old Famitsu software data, but that's why we love him.
rs7k said:
You're completely right. The Wii may be the best selling console, but the market is so different on that side that it makes no sense for PS3/360-centric devs to go there since there's so much competition from Nintendo and casual games by other third-parties.

The PS3 selling better helps it out as well as the already strong 360 software market. A Wii version of GTA4 probably wouldn't have sold as much as either next-gen version IMO, because like it or not, the Wii is a very casual, family-oriented console. Much more casual than the PS2 ever was.

I'm sure your arguments will get discredited by some hardcore people on here, but since third-parties are agreeing with you, you're obviously right.



I don't think its true that there isn't a core gamer market on the Wii- sales of various games show that their is.

But for Western developers/publishers who heavily invested in HD, there isn't an incentive to switch to the Wii since there current strategy works for them (largely because of the 360's voracious userbase).
 

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
schuelma said:
Not much to argue with.

This has pretty much been my stance for half of a year- Western 3rd parties will continue to mainly focus on 360/PS3/PC but that the Wii will get its share of support, while in Japan the tides will shift towards the Wii getting the majority of core games. I think we've started to see that shift from Japan, but E3 and TGS should be more illustrative.

Yup. This has become the accepted stance since Feb/March of this year, but it never hurts to prove it. I suspect we'll hear one mini-ton at E3, and despite sales, analysis, logic, and love of money, Japanese devs will still be wary of the major exclusive for the Wii.

edwardslane said:
Personally i bought my wii for Nintendo games. So as long as i get Animal crossing wii and a few more gems that are up nintendo's sleeves i'm happy :p

I have my computer for 3rd party games. Blizzard alone keeps me quite happy. Team fortress 2 as well. and Civ 4~

only so much time in my day for games and Wii + PC suits me fine

I think a lot of people did the same thing. I think what we're seeing now is the year 2, 3, and 4 buyers of PS2s are now buying the Wii. The first year buyers of the PS2 have almost all jumped into next-gen at this point.


Farnack said:
Oh it's panther.

Oh it's graphs.

If I had ever heard of you before, seen anything you've ever done, or you were more than a one-line blip in the mass of irrelevancy, I might have a proper retort. Instead, I'm content that you spent time pointing out two things that anybody with an IQ above broccoli could have pointed out. So I guess you're getting somewhere.
 

schuelma

Wastes hours checking old Famitsu software data, but that's why we love him.
careful said:
The every now and then Sony/MS moneyhats will still give PS3/360 some AAA Japanese exclusives.


It will be interesting.

I know we've seen the 360 get some pretty signficant JRPG support lately, but those all appear to be games that started development before the Wii was a force to be reckoned with.

I can see series like DMC staying hi def because DMC4 did just fine.
 

Talamius

Member
What will be interesting is how Western and Eastern devs approach the next generation. I think alot of that will deal with how much mindshare and marketshare Nintendo has amassed at that point.

Retailers will also help decide it, if they decide to reduce "hardcore" shelf space in favor of the more casual titles based on sales. Look at how small PC game shelf space has gotten for anyone not named Valve or Blizzard. I think we may start to see the same thing happen to hardcore console titles. Not every one of them has the following of a GTA4.

As for the shocking announcement, I think KH3 is a lock for the Wii at this point. I'll be surprised if mainline FFXIV is NOT on a Nintendo console.
 

EBCubs03

Banned
PantherLotus said:
If I had ever heard of you before, seen anything you've ever done, or you were more than a one-line blip in the mass of irrelevancy, I might have a proper retort. Instead, I'm content that you spent time pointing out two things that anybody with an IQ above broccoli could have pointed out. So I guess you're getting somewhere.

You shouldn't be able to talk to anyone like that, even if this is your own topic

Grow up
 

Jocchan

Ὁ μεμβερος -ου
viciouskillersquirrel said:
So what happens if (when?) the Wii eclipses the combined PS3/360 total install base? Would pubs/devs care?
They would increase their production rate of minigames, obviously.
And then they would give up developing on the console because of their minigames not selling.
You know it's going to happen.
 

Jme

Member
EBCubs03 said:
You shouldn't be able to talk to anyone like that, even if this is your own topic

Grow up

But it's perfectly fine for the person he was speaking to troll this thread?
 
I don't expect the Wii to get any decent third party support, even from Japan. The DS has outsold the PS2 and is still getting mostly garbage from Japanese third party studios.
 

Atreides

Member
I think that eventually, Wii will get some western exclusives, too. In USA, it could surpass 360+PS3 by 2009 fall. That western developers are making enough money with 360 and PS3, I'm not sure about that. Several western publishers have had losses last fiscal year.
 

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
viciouskillersquirrel said:
So what happens if (when?) the Wii eclipses the combined PS3/360 total install base? Would pubs/devs care?

Great question. I don't think anything happens. Would I be shocked if R* spent a few months downgrading everything and spreading out GTAIV onto several disks for the Wii so they could move another million games or so? Not really. I would be shocked to see GTAV on the Wii, though.

And no, I don't really think that devs care, in relation to their hardcore franchises. The MGS4 (I realize it's a Japanese game) sales in Japan matching past efforts on more established consoles (MGS1, 2, and 3 on the PS2) pretty much confirms that the hardcore audience isn't growing over normal population percentages. At least in Japan.
 

ThatObviousUser

ὁ αἴσχιστος παῖς εἶ
Zerodoppler said:
I don't expect the Wii to get any decent third party support, even from Japan. The DS has outsold the PS2 and is still getting mostly garbage from Japanese third party studios.

O rly?

And E3/GDC 09 is when the West will start shifting to the Wii IMO, based on this data. The Wii should have far outsold the combined others in the states by then.
 

Hunahan

Banned
PantherLotus said:
And no, I don't really think that devs care, in relation to their hardcore franchises. The MGS4 (I realize it's a Japanese game) sales in Japan matching past efforts on more established consoles (MGS1, 2, and 3 on the PS2) pretty much confirms that the hardcore audience isn't growing over normal population percentages. At least in Japan.
doesn't this make your entire thread irrelevant?

I get that people think Sales-Age = Awesome Game Placement Age, but everything I've seen in Reality-Age suggests that it just isn't so. From Japanese publishers, from Western publishers, from anyone.

If Media Create sales numbers were going to dictate where Japanese support was going, we sure as hell wouldn't be seeing JRPGs on the 360.

And what's with the dismissal of "in relation to their hardcore franchises." Isn't that what this is all about? Or by "megaton japanese exclusive," are you referring to "third rate, C-tier support."

They already got that in spades.
 

TunaLover

Member
western devs are tech-focused, japenese ones likes experiment over gameplay and visual achievements. They have completely different philosophies about development. Too small-to-mid developers in japan are able to get really masterpiece, even equaling big parties efforts. Even AA teams in japan are comparable to AAA teams in western.
The most develoment resourse for Wii comes from AA teams 3rd parties, and AAA teams from mid 3rd parties like Marvelous. Just think out what western developer is able to pull a NMH, a budget game acclaimed like a high budget game, pretty telling.
 

schuelma

Wastes hours checking old Famitsu software data, but that's why we love him.
Zerodoppler said:
I don't expect the Wii to get any decent third party support, even from Japan. The DS has outsold the PS2 and is still getting mostly garbage from Japanese third party studios.

That is 100% incorrect.
 
Andrex said:
O rly?

And E3/GDC 09 is when the West will start shifting to the Wii IMO, based on this data. The Wii should have far outsold the combined others in the states by then.
The western devs/pubs will not give a shit since even in 09 their projections will still show that PC/PS3/360 software still sells way better than non-nintendo software on the wii.
 

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
Phantast2k said:
The western devs/pubs will not give a shit since even in 09 their projections will still show that PC/PS3/360 software still sells way better than non-nintendo software on the wii.

is that even true NOW?
 

TunaLover

Member
Hunahan said:
doesn't this make your entire thread irrelevant?

I get that people think Sales-Age = Awesome Game Placement Age, but everything I've seen in Reality-Age suggests that it just isn't so. From Japanese publishers, from Western publishers, from anyone.

If Media Create sales numbers were going to dictate where Japanese support was going, we sure as hell wouldn't be seeing JRPGs on the 360.

And what's with the dismissal of "in relation to their hardcore franchises." Isn't that what this is all about? Or by "megaton japanese exclusive," are you referring to "third rate, C-tier support."

They already got that in spades.

Money-hat or maximised resources from PS3 developments.
 

Hunahan

Banned
TunaLover said:
Money-hat or maximised resources from PS3 developments.
So?

Doesn't matter how or why it is as long as it isn't directly related to Sales Age.

That's the entire premise of this argument. Wii sells more in Japan, Wii gets more exclusives.

I'm pointing out that this doesn't seem to be following in the market. How or why is not important. So long as exclusive placement is not based on Media-Create, this entire theory is useless at predicting anything.
 
Panther: New longtime sales-age reader here. Greenhorn status aside, I should wonder what the developments along the Wiiware side of things since the service launched could mean for your predictions? Or would you contend it bolsters your current line of thought as it extends to retail games? Personally, I see no reason why WiiWare could not serve as an excellent outlet for smart, if not perhaps substantial, budget use and quality gaming exclusives on the Wii regardless of the geographic area of origin.
 

schuelma

Wastes hours checking old Famitsu software data, but that's why we love him.
Phantast2k said:
The western devs/pubs will not give a shit since even in 09 their projections will still show that PC/PS3/360 software still sells way better than non-nintendo software on the wii.


Well, if you're giving the hi def platforms the good and highly advertised games, then no shit they'll sell better than the crap they put on the Wii.
 
PantherLotus said:
Great question. I don't think anything happens. Would I be shocked if R* spent a few months downgrading everything and spreading out GTAIV onto several disks for the Wii so they could move another million games or so? Not really. I would be shocked to see GTAV on the Wii, though.

And no, I don't really think that devs care, in relation to their hardcore franchises. The MGS4 (I realize it's a Japanese game) sales in Japan matching past efforts on more established consoles (MGS1, 2, and 3 on the PS2) pretty much confirms that the hardcore audience isn't growing over normal population percentages. At least in Japan.

I think this is the likely scenario for most core-focused games (especially those already released for HD-systems), however I would add that I think that the success of the Wii does open up a lot of opportunities for new/smaller developers to have their games picked up for publication and distribution (and to some degree japanese-games to receive localization). I look at marvelous and rising star and their strategy and companies like ubisoft (who develop shit-tastic games for the wii but will pick up some good external games).
 

schuelma

Wastes hours checking old Famitsu software data, but that's why we love him.
Hunahan said:
So?

Doesn't matter how or why it is as long as it isn't directly related to Sales Age.

That's the entire premise of this argument. Wii sells more in Japan, Wii gets more exclusives.

I'm pointing out that this doesn't seem to be following in the market. How or why is not important. So long as exclusive placement is not based on Media-Create, this entire theory is useless at predicting anything.

I disagree. Yes, the 360 has gotten quite a lot of JRPG love, but 1- those games have clearly been in development for a long time and 2-look beyond those few games and you'll see that Japanese companies are releasing significantly more Wii exclusives the longer and longer we go. Now, its true that there haven't been any OMG MEGATONS aside from MH3, but a lot of solid stuff has been announced and I expect the uptick to continue.
 

TunaLover

Member
Hunahan said:
So?

Doesn't matter how or why it is as long as it isn't directly related to Sales Age.

That's the entire premise of this argument. Wii sells more in Japan, Wii gets more exclusives.

I'm pointing out that this doesn't seem to be following in the market. How or why is not important. So long as exclusive placement is not based on Media-Create, this entire theory is useless at predicting anything.

No, your point was "there´s a game because they sell" hence more games, money hat doesn´t follow that logic. If it was, then 360 rpg should be able to sell well, which not.
 
Atreides said:
I think that eventually, Wii will get some western exclusives, too. In USA, it could surpass 360+PS3 by 2009 fall. That western developers are making enough money with 360 and PS3, I'm not sure about that. Several western publishers have had losses last fiscal year.

I agree with this, we could even see it sooner as the increased Eastern support causes a snowball effect and it becomes clearer that the Wii is destined to become the next PS2. We could very well be talking about a Western Devs next big Wii title this time next year.
 
What type of Japan potential wii exclusive games are we talking here? seems like all of japan's heavy hitting titles are all ready in development.... Monster hunter was a good capture.. but seriously what else? KH3? if so who at square is available to develop the game now or in the near future?

what japan developer has the resources right now to develop a AAA wii exclusive?
 
Talamius said:
As for the shocking announcement, I think KH3 is a lock for the Wii at this point. I'll be surprised if mainline FFXIV is NOT on a Nintendo console.

I agree that KH3, mostly due to Disney sharing the copyright, and the Wii audience matches Disney's.

However, I disagree that it wouldn't be a surprise that FFXIV is not on a Nintendo console. Not with the current developer heads acting somewhat like most western devs. I'll be a miracle to get those guys around.
 
schuelma said:
Well, if you're giving the hi def platforms the good and highly advertised games, then no shit they'll sell better than the crap they put on the Wii.
cry moar?
The installed base will always be bigger for hd systems (PS360PC), the core game consuming demographic (20-40 males) will always support the hd systems, the ps2 will live long enough to warrant the shitty shovelware wii ports (= easy money for devs/pubs).
 

jrricky

Banned
Zerodoppler said:
I don't expect the Wii to get any decent third party support, even from Japan. The DS has outsold the PS2 and is still getting mostly garbage from Japanese third party studios.
:lol :lol
wat?

Thats the most ignorant post of the day if not the year.

:lol
 

schuelma

Wastes hours checking old Famitsu software data, but that's why we love him.
bloody pirate said:
What type of Japan potential wii exclusive games are we talking here? seems like all of japan's heavy hitting titles are all ready in development.... Monster hunter was a good capture.. but seriously what else? KH3? if so who at square is available to develop the game now or in the near future?

what japan developer has the resources right now to develop a AAA wii exclusive?


I agree; what I expect are some big budget, new IP Wi exclusives from Japanese developers.
 
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