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[D.Lo]

I think third parties are treating the Wii the way they've always treated handhelds. Pretty much no western publisher gave the GBA really good support - and even Japanese devs like Square, Capcom and Konami who did some top teir GBA games held them back in some way (Kiddeh FFTA and Megaman etc). So what happenned? The GBA, despite being a sales monster, had a low tie ratio and was a Pokemon or Mario machine for most buyers.

And now with the DS smashing all records and likely to be the highest selling platform of all time, they STILL haven't gone anywhere beyond Dogz and Princez of Persiaz. The closest thing to decent sustained support from western devs was early PSP support, as they obviouly hoped their business models would translate to it.

And now the Wii is basically receiving the same strategy as they previously gave handhelds. Unfortunately for them, without the Wii the home console market is falling backward.

 

[Saint10118]

Andrex, are youuuu eteric rice?

OMG! I knew I wasn't crazy with this sense of deja vu! :lol

edit: I guess 04/2007 join date sets him free as Eteric was asking to be unbanned on the ubisoft forums last month

 

[Wyndstryker]

Except artists choose the medium they want to work with and fits their talents. Just because someone wants to work with HD assets doesn't mean they are wrong.

Not when someone with your paycheck tells you to work on something else.

 

[DarkMage619]

This is NOT about hardware sales. Despite the fact that the Wii sells tons of hardware to this day the best selling games are ones that are created by Nintendo themselves. How is that supposed to motivate Ubi, or EA, or Capcom to produce Wii exclusives?

And a thing I NEVER hear mentioned is the technology gap. The Wii cannot produce the same graphic quality that you see on the PS3 and the 360 and most of the time the newest titles coming out are pushing the technology envelope. Like it or not the Wii will remain the place for Nintendo games and the other platforms can be for everything else. There is nothing wrong with that and its a win for everyone.

The Dark One

 

[Gaborn]

I think the one thing missing from Panther's analysis is that US sales are good enough not to take all of the major franchises from Sony/MS, but SOME of them will jump, and not just in Japan but in the US. This is not an all or nothing concept, this is about a paradigm shift in the industry, and saying that all major franchises are not going to appear on the Wii isn't really useful, all major franchises have never appeared on any single console in the modern era as an exclusive. In the US sales are good enough that some developers should decide that it's profitable and sensible to put games that would have (if things had gone the way many analysts predicted they "should" early on) gone to the PS3 onto the Wii.

Every franchise the Wii gains in this manner whether it was associated last gen with the Xbox or the PS2 is going to be a sign of the paradigm shift the Wii's sales represent, and every franchise that jumps means more are likely to. Most people recognized for example that Monster Hunter moving to the Wii was a major blow for Sony both because it was a popular franchise moving to Wii and because it was a franchise leaving Sony, but moreso because it was a sign of things to come. All Nintendo has to do is "steal" a couple of western franchises and then even if Sony basically holds serve on their other franchises it's seen as a software coup and a major shift in developer mindshare towards Nintendo.

 

[Sinnick]

There are several circumstances/factors that have come to light this generation that never used to exist anymore. And all thanks to the Wii.

I have a slightly less pro-Nintendo take on the situation:

1) Devs thought the PS3 & 360 would dominate & made significant investments in preparation. They're now stuck with those investments & are going to make the most of it.

2) Devs don't like where the Wii is taking gaming.

3) It's never lost on 3rd parties that Nintendo first and foremost views them as competition rather than assets that can help make a platform successful. In other words, Nintendo is less likely to help them than Sony or MS.

4) Some devs want to create a segmented market because it eliminates the guesswork in determining where to put a title. That's why they refuse to put certain titles on the Wii (DS too) even though they'd probably sell very well. It's also why some try to create the self fulfilling prophecy that "we didn't put X on the Wii because mostly casuals buy it".

5) Some devs just don't have a clue.

My prediction is that most 3rd parties won't allocate the resources that many feel the Wii has earned until it becomes absolutely necessary or Nintendo opens up their wallets. Japenese devs are almost there. The western ones aren't & probably never will.

Western devs will probably be fine not heavily supporting the Wii this generation. However, by doing so, they're encouraging Nintendo to focus on diversifying its portfolio (something they've been trying, but failing, to do since the N64 days). If that happens, western devs may see some of their IPs lose relevance.

 

[Sir Alemeth]

Wii + PC = Western and Eastern fusion, for half the price. Why buy extra consoles when you have to do work on the PC anyway?

This. Pretty much covers all the bases. With better controls to boot. Keyboard + Mouse = WIN.

 

[Rancid Mildew]

1. I think western developers will seriously consider the Wii as a home for some significant hardcore titles if some conditions are met or if someone can produce a giant system selling western-type game we see on the 360. However, no one seems willing enough to make a decent attempt. Perhaps something will change if the Wii userbase continues to balloon at this rate but ultimately, I think Nintendo will have to be the one responsible for changing western attitudes in a meaningful way. The 360 isn't just an attractive console to develop for because of the game hungry userbase. In addition to that, MS has been very hospitable to third parties and eager to promote titles for their system.

I think and hope we're on the verge of seeing some significant changes in attitude however. Will Wright and Gabe Newell, two of the most talented and ambitious developers in our hemisphere, have gone on record multiple times lauding the Wii's concept and controller, even going as far as saying it's the "only" next-gen system. Hopefully this creative theorizing ends up producing something substantial and original.

2. As for Japan, the Wii's eventual software dominance on the console front is assured. The PS3, the supposed heir to the PS2, has been a pretty hostile home to the big IPs the PS2 held onto during the last generation, with most new entries doing far worse than before and with a few lucky games that can do almost as well as prior entries at the price of exponentially larger development costs. It's also apparent that its userbase will perpetually grow at a significantly slower rate than the Wii's. I think the 360 is also harming the PS3's chance of recovering in these crucial early moments since Microsoft is getting a slew of exclusives or timed exclusives through money-hatting that would otherwise be going to the PS3.

The beginning fears about how third parties would fare on the Wii were justified but with recent games like Shiren 3 and ToS:KoR selling pretty well, it's obvious that we can lay those concerns to rest. I also think games in the future like Fragile, MH3, Fatal Frame IV, Tenchu IV, Arc Rise Fantasia etc. will have a significant cumulative effect in bringing over the country's traditional PS gamers to the platform. Anyone denying the path Japan will take with home console development, especially with the recent crop of unexpected third party Wii announcements, is plainly in denial.

 

[Smiles and Cries]

well I only hope I can afford the games

 

[legend166]

There is nothing wrong with that and its a win for everyone.

The Dark One

Except for the tens of millions who will own a Wii and nothing else.

I've said it before, but developers need to look at the Wii as a long term investment, and I don't mean just mean for this generation. Nintendo is in the best position to win next generation, bar a PS3 level screw up. In my mind, all they have to do is increase the power of the console, make montion sensing better/more precise, and chuck in an extra 'gimmick' to draw people in. Or, launch it with Wii Sports 2.

Publishers should take the opportunity to gain mindshare and create franchises on the Wii that can carry over to the next generation. Those who lump all their eggs into the HD basket this generation are looking at increased irrelevance next generation.

yeah yeah hypothetical can't look into the future blah blah

 

[_Alkaline_]

This is NOT about hardware sales. Despite the fact that the Wii sells tons of hardware to this day the best selling games are ones that are created by Nintendo themselves. How is that supposed to motivate Ubi, or EA, or Capcom to produce Wii exclusives?

And a thing I NEVER hear mentioned is the technology gap. The Wii cannot produce the same graphic quality that you see on the PS3 and the 360 and most of the time the newest titles coming out are pushing the technology envelope. Like it or not the Wii will remain the place for Nintendo games and the other platforms can be for everything else. There is nothing wrong with that and its a win for everyone.

The Dark One

And just how many 3rd party games have actually deserved to sell well? How many have been big-budget AAA titles developed by A-class teams?

The thing is that miraculously, some 3rd parties have achieved success on the system. Guitar Hero III has sold 2-3 million worldwide and is currently selling best each month on Wii.

Resident Evil 4 and Umbrella Chronicles, despite being a port and mediocre spin-off respectively, both sold over a million worldwide.

SEGA also has a million seller with Sonic and the Secret Rings, and Sonic and Mario at the Olympic Games is a multi-million seller.

Also, the best selling versions of Tiger Woods 07 and 08 were, guess what? The Wii version.

And Ubisoft started off their Wii support with two decent exclusives in Rayman and Red Steel, both of which sold over a million worldwide. It's ironic that now they're just putting shitty ports on the system and getting nothing for it.

The thing is, few of these games represent even close to the effort developers put on the 360 and PS3. Imagine how good their sales could be if they actual, you know, put some effort into their Wii games and marketed them well. So far, nearly all 3rd party games have deserved to fail.

 

[Kagari]

Third parties... sigh...

 

[Bizzyb]

There are plenty of western Wii exclusives although they are usually crap

Still, EA has some good exclusives, e.g. SSX Blur, Bloom Blox, and ummm.....someone help me out here....

 

[_Alkaline_]

Oh, and another thing. I'm sick of people saying "only Nintendo games sell well."

Think of this - what 3rd party games on Wii would you actually want to buy? Seriously, which ones? Cause I can't think of many. Is that the Wii's fault? No, it's the ignorant developers who refuse to support the system properly despite the fact it's kicking ass in hardware AND software sales.

It's not as if people walk into a game store and won't buy anything on Wii unless it has the "Made by Nintendo" logo. People buy Nintendo games because they're actually good. We buy the Zeldas, Metroids, Marios, etc because they're damn good games, not because they're Nintendo titles. If 3rd parties actually tried to emulate the same degree of quality, then maybe we'd actually start paying more attention to their games.

As of now, most 3rd party sales are ass. And their sales to deserve to be the same.

 

[ThatObviousUser]

And just how many 3rd party games have actually deserved to sell well? How many have been big-budget AAA titles developed by A-class teams?

The thing is that miraculously, some 3rd parties have achieved success on the system. Guitar Hero III has sold 2-3 million worldwide and is currently selling best each month on Wii.

Resident Evil 4 and Umbrella Chronicles, despite being a port and mediocre spin-off respectively, both sold over a million worldwide.

SEGA also has a million seller with Sonic and the Secret Rings, and Sonic and Mario at the Olympic Games is a multi-million seller.

Also, the best selling versions of Tiger Woods 07 and 08 were, guess what? The Wii version.

And Ubisoft started off their Wii support with two decent exclusives in Rayman and Red Steel, both of which sold over a million worldwide. It's ironic that now they're just putting shitty ports on the system and getting nothing for it.

The thing is, few of these games represent even close to the effort developers put on the 360 and PS3. Imagine how good their sales could be if they actual, you know, put some effort into their Wii games and marketed them well. So far, nearly all 3rd party games have deserved to fail.

Exactly. You'd think without the strains of 10x the money devkits and HD on their backs, developers would be jumping at the chance to take their skills and make a high-end Wii game that's better than 90% of its other games for a fraction of the cost, then use the rest of the budget to market it.

But that would make too much sense.

 

[Narcosis]

As of now, most 3rd party sales are ass. And their sales to deserve to be the same.

Actually, alot of the games GAF would dismiss sell well enough in relation to their development budget that it encourages 3rd parties to make software that doesn't align with the typical GAF mentality of only playing big budget mega AAA exclusive titles and seeing the top 10 sales charts once a month in the NPD threads.

One of the things I read on this site once that I think gets ignored quite a bit was the warning someone posted stating that the people with the mindset of someone who posts on GAF or similar sites and understand the concept of "shovelware" aren't as important as they think they are.

It seems Wii is proving that notion to be very true.

 

[Bending_Unit_22]

I have the same quibble with the OP as I had in "Part I", there's a major difference between never and not many. In the West it is very unlikely the Wii will ever become a platform for major exclusive 3rd party support but that doesn't mean it won't receive any. The much lower development costs and rapidly growing install base means at some point some western 3rd party will put a major AAA exclusive on the Wii. Of course, at the same time they announce it they will announce 1 or maybe 2 PS360 AAA titles but the problem with using never is that single Wii AAA 3rd party exclusive destroys the OP's argument.

Exactly. You'd think without the strains of 10x the money devkits and HD on their backs, developers would be jumping at the chance to take their skills and make a high-end Wii game that's better than 90% of its other games for a fraction of the cost, then use the rest of the budget to market it.

But that would make too much sense.

Exactly what I would think. Although to be fair it looks like a couple 3rd parties are doing that. Factor 5 sounds like they are really going to push the Wii and I can't think of too many developers who've been burned more by HD development than Factor 5. THQ seems to be putting some real effort into Deadly Creatures and De Blob, or at least they are providing a conduit for other developers. Which brings me to another developer that seems to be trying, High Voltage Studios. I don't know if they succeed but I hope they can become a western version of MMV.

 

[JudgeN]

Exactly. You'd think without the strains of 10x the money devkits and HD on their backs, developers would be jumping at the chance to take their skills and make a high-end Wii game that's better than 90% of its other games for a fraction of the cost, then use the rest of the budget to market it.

But that would make too much sense.

This is my question, all these developers already have there 360/PS3 develop kits, engines have already been made, and etc. All these things reduce cost of development, now sure it works both ways. Same could be said for the Wii but i'm wondering if development of these HD games really cost as much as people think that they do.

 

[Of All Trades]

Oh, and another thing. I'm sick of people saying "only Nintendo games sell well."

Think of this - what 3rd party games on Wii would you actually want to buy? Seriously, which ones? Cause I can't think of many. Is that the Wii's fault? No, it's the ignorant developers who refuse to support the system properly despite the fact it's kicking ass in hardware AND software sales.

It's not as if people walk into a game store and won't buy anything on Wii unless it has the "Made by Nintendo" logo. People buy Nintendo games because they're actually good. We buy the Zeldas, Metroids, Marios, etc because they're damn good games, not because they're Nintendo titles. If 3rd parties actually tried to emulate the same degree of quality, then maybe we'd actually start paying more attention to their games.

As of now, most 3rd party sales are ass. And their sales to deserve to be the same.

People don't say "only nintendo games sell well" because of Zelda, Mario and Metroid. People say "only nintendo games sell well" because half-assed mediocrity like Mario Party, Wii Play, and Mario & Sonic (1st party in Japan, Mario franchise) completely wipe the fucking floor with both 3rd party games AND better 1st party Nintendo games like Metroid and Excite Truck.

 

[_Alkaline_]

People don't say "only nintendo games sell well" because of Zelda, Mario and Metroid. People say "only nintendo games sell well" because half-assed mediocrity like Mario Party, Wii Play, and Mario & Sonic (1st party in Japan, Mario franchise) completely wipe the fucking floor with both 3rd party games AND better 1st party Nintendo games like Metroid and Excite Truck.

I can understand your Mario Party point (though it's still better than most 3rd party games on Wii anyway :lol ) but Wii Play is a damn good deal for $10, and M&S has sold best in the US and especially Europe where its published by SEGA, and it's a SEGA developed game anyway.

For the most part people don't just buy any crap simply because it has the Nintendo logo. Just look at the shitty (and deservedly so) sales of Donkey Kong Bongo Blast, for example.

 

[Bending_Unit_22]

Actually, looking back my comments in the "Part I" thread still hold up in this thread:

I don't agree with the logic behind the conclusions in the OP's analysis. The Wii has a 2:1 lead over the PS3+360 in Japan so it will get some 3rd party exclusives yet it'll soon be the largest single console and holding its own with the HD consoles in the West will earn the Wii no 3rd party exclusives? At this rate what would the Wii have to do to get most 3rd party exclusives, be the sole console in existence?

As for the analysis I have two main problems. First, I don't think it would change things too significantly, but it would be nice to have figures for the rest of the West when you're making the point that the Wii isn't doing well enough in the West. The US, if I'm not mistaken, is just under half the NA+EU market so that's not an insignificant part of the market missing. Again it may not matter much but isn’t the Wii already the lead console in places like the UK, France, and Germany? Also, 3rd party games seem to do better there, though of course software sales weren't part of the analysis but I'm sure they matter more to 3rd parties.

Second, the last graph become less relevant each month (PS360 sales minus Wii sales). It's one thing if say there are 5 million Wiis and the PS360 totals 10 million, but if say last gen the PS2 was at 100 million and the GCN-Xbox split 105 million between them then that would be an entirely different situation for 3rd parties. Obviously that is not the case today, but it will be closer to it in 2 years when major games planned today come out. This is especially the case if Europe were included. Just because there are 50-60 million PS360's and 40-50 million Wiis doesn't mean 3rd parties will decide to throw everything on the PS360.

I'm not arguing 3rd parties will throw most exclusives, or even a plurality, to the Wii but neither do I see why a 3rd party would completely ignore the Wii's 17+million and growing Western install base just because 2 other far more expensive to develop for consoles have 5 or 10 million more systems sold.

 

[Lonewolf_92]

This is my question, all these developers already have there 360/PS3 develop kits, engines have already been made, and etc. All these things reduce cost of development, now sure it works both ways. Same could be said for the Wii but i'm wondering if development of these HD games really cost as much as people think that they do.

HD graphics still require a great deal of time and money to produce comparatively, so even if you're running on a premade engine (that you own, otherwise that's more money out the door) and have absorbed your Devkit costs, you're still looking at a great deal of money output to produce an HD game compared to an SD game, for likely the same amount of sales.

 

[mollipen]

Wii + PC = Western and Eastern fusion, for half the price. Why buy extra consoles when you have to do work on the PC anyway?

If my experience with WoW (from a technical side) is any indication of PC gaming, thank GOD I have no interest in being a PC gamer.

As somebody who (a) prefers Japanese games, and (b) prefers games in high definition, the future is looking pretty shitty right now.

 

[schuelma]

I definitely don't think Western pubs are and will ignore the Wii- but what we've seen so far is that the increased attention is usually in the form of casual mini games, not big budget core franchises.

 

[D.Lo]

HD graphics still require a great deal of time and money to produce comparatively, so even if you're running on a premade engine (that you own, otherwise that's more money out the door) and have absorbed your Devkit costs, you're still looking at a great deal of money output to produce an HD game compared to an SD game, for likely the same amount of sales.

Someone (Factor 5?) could make a fortune developing a couple of decent Wii engines to be sold for a percentage of game sales. If ever there was a need for a new equivalent of Renderware, western third party Wii game development is it.

 

[Gaborn]

I definitely don't think Western pubs are and will ignore the Wii- but what we've seen so far is that the increased attention is usually in the form of casual mini games, not big budget core franchises.

Yeah, but you have to figure that AAA games take quite a bit more time to make than casual mini games. Let's say you're a third party, you were planning on putting all your franchises on the best selling console, you think that's going to be the PS3, so you start development as soon as you get the development kits. Then, let's say it takes you about until the middle of 07 to really realize that the PS3 is NOT going to win. At that point you have at least a year (I'm assuming most big name devs got dev kits at least 6 months before launch, figure a couple months testing the limits of the architecture, etc) of development into AAA titles that might take another year, possibly two of development time. Then you have to figure they need to START their big name titles for Wii, getting the team together, making sure you have your concept for it, actually start making it... we should be hearing things soonish, but it's not like there's been enough time for AAA games.

Mini games? they can probably knock those out in less than 6 months if they want to.

 

[Link]

Yeah, but you have to figure that AAA games take quite a bit more time to make than casual mini games. Let's say you're a third party, you were planning on putting all your franchises on the best selling console, you think that's going to be the PS3, so you start development as soon as you get the development kits. Then, let's say it takes you about until the middle of 07 to really realize that the PS3 is NOT going to win. At that point you have at least a year (I'm assuming most big name devs got dev kits at least 6 months before launch, figure a couple months testing the limits of the architecture, etc) of development into AAA titles that might take another year, possibly two of development time. Then you have to figure they need to START their big name titles for Wii, getting the team together, making sure you have your concept for it, actually start making it... we should be hearing things soonish, but it's not like there's been enough time for AAA games.

Mini games? they can probably knock those out in less than 6 months if they want to.

Let's go with this logic. If that's the case, then I'd say this E3 will be the telling point on if third parties just got caught with their pants down, or if they really just don't give a shit about the Wii.


EDIT - I'm guessing it's the latter, personally.

 

[PantherLotus]

Great points all around but wanted to point out a couple things:

1. I don't like my ideas being misrepresented by a few individuals here. One in particular suggested that I discredited my entire idea because I mentioned ONE game that was obviously moneyhatted to oblivion.

2. The semantics of "never" vs. "almost none" are obvious, but pretty meaningless. The OP clearly states what is meant by MAJOR 3RD PARTY EXCLUSIVES. One can't read the OP with that in mind and then in the same hand consider GTAIV an "HD" exclusive when it obviously went to two consoles. Let's not set up straw men when the point is generally clear. Please reread the disclaimers which clearly state what I mean by "exclusive." If you want to debate semantics, one could easily point to the idea that every single wii game has a specific minimum of waggle control and thus every game it has is exclusive. But that would be stupid, wouldn't it?

3. The best debate and response I'm seeing is whether or not Japanese devs really will deliver based on hardware sales in Japan. I think it seems obvious that things would change, but nothing has happened yet. Then again, I'm talking about games like Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, Resident Evil, Soul Caliber, etc. All of those save one are being made for HD systems and have been in the works for some time. The question comes down to how they choose to spend their money and which audience they choose to spend it on.

4. People reading the thread with ridiculous comments about sales-age, charts r stupid, or w/e, the thread was clearly marked so you can fuck yourselves. If you don't find the conversation here absolutely fascinating, you're missing out on larger and more important prevailing lessons about our favorite hobby. Do LTDs matter? Does hardware matter? Do install bases matter? Does momentum matter? How do you account for different markets that like different consoles slightly more? What is the best possible investment for billion dollar companies and how does that effect the future of what we'll see? If you are reading this thread and those questions don't make you seriously question the deeper business of gaming, could you at least keep the dumbass comments to yourself?

 

[Gaborn]

Let's go with this logic. If that's the case, then I'd say this E3 will be the telling point on if third parties just got caught with their pants down, or if they really just don't give a shit about the Wii.


EDIT - I'm guessing it's the latter, personally.

and I don't disagree, personally I think it'll be the E3 AFTER this one where we'd really be seeing this in meaningful effect, but I wouldn't be shocked to see one or two BIG names going to Wii this E3 that we don't expect either, as some sort of leading indicator.

Panther - the problem with talking only about GTA/Final Fantasy and the like is those games ARE already in development for HD consoles. It's very rare and seldom that a game is going to be like MH3 and just stop development on one console and become exclusive to another. As I was trying to say, AAA games take time, and developers are unlikely to stop development on already started projects (depending on how far along they are and what their possibly revised expectations are given market realities if they continue the project vs stopping it and switching over). I think though that you WILL see AAA teams start to be shifted to the Wii as other projects complete and in greater numbers, and then it'll depend on how large the third party in question is and how many different major franchises they own as to what kind of major support they get (not counting brand new franchises), but for example, Square's Final Fantasy team isn't going to switch over to the Wii now, RE5 isn't going to come to Wii in it's current form, etc. That doesn't mean other franchises won't, but just because of original expectations and it being too late in the game for many developers certain realities have to be considered.

 

[gaheris]

Here is the thing when you look at the marketplace of last generation with the PS2 the high and low tier were both on the same platform but this generation the lower tier products are too risky to put of the Xbox 360 and PS3 due to cost and audience. This is where the Wii has an advantage in those lower tier product areas and with Nintendo's products they have a combination of High and Low Tier products that both drive hardware that Sony and Microsoft do not. Sony can have those but until the PS3 becomes mainstream those products will be irrelevant. If you are not a AAA developer can you develop for the HD consoles if you only have modest funding no which means there is a split in the market place not just in terms of demographics but product categories. The Xbox 360 and PS3 have these lower tier products as part of their DL services but they offer a different type of experience than a retail product often being shorter than those.

What I mean by High Tier would be a higher budget game with a lower tier being a lower budget game. As platform holders moving forward they should recognize that you need a balance you can't create a machine for the higher tier and expect to get lower tier products. Lower tier doesn't mean crap it means the focus is different it could be more experimentation than on graphical fidelity. That is what has went wrong with this generation the Xbox 360 and PS3 were designed for the high end and ignored the lower end you need both. Nintendo focused on lower end specs but because they are a top tier developer they can create high end products that push hardware and software for a lower spec machine that is something that most 3rd party developers don't because of their focus on technology. The videogame industry is not a technology industry it is an entertainment one who used technology for entertainment but fundamentally regardless of technology it is engaging and fun software that matters. Nintendo read the market much better and they have the ability to create products that can move consumers upstream and they dominate in both tiers because regardless of what type of product they are creating whether it is a Mario Galaxy or a Wii Series they are committed to a high level of quality and fun.

 

[D.Lo]

Let's go with this logic. If that's the case, then I'd say this E3 will be the telling point on if third parties just got caught with their pants down, or if they really just don't give a shit about the Wii.

Most of the now famous 'big' Ps1 games came out in its 3rd and 4th years (FF7, MGS, GT etc). At this point in the PS1's life, people were playing second tier stuff like Ridge Racer 1, Toshinden, Twisted Metal, Blasto, inferior Street Fighter Alpha 2 etc. It also shared a bunch of games with the SNES for a while (EW Jim 2, Megaman X3 etc).

For this kind of shift (a 'new' dominant player) it could take the whole generation for some companies to get on board.

 

[Lonewolf_92]

Here is the thing when you look at the marketplace of last generation with the PS2 the high and low tier were both on the same platform but this generation the lower tier products are too risky to put of the Xbox 360 and PS3 due to cost and audience. This is where the Wii has an advantage in those lower tier product areas and with Nintendo's products they have a combination of High and Low Tier products that both drive hardware that Sony and Microsoft do not. Sony can have those but until the PS3 becomes mainstream those products will be irrelevant. If you are not a AAA developer can you develop for the HD consoles if you only have modest funding no which means there is a split in the market place not just in terms of demographics but product categories. The Xbox 360 and PS3 have these lower tier products as part of their DL services but they offer a different type of experience than a retail product often being shorter than those.

What I mean by High Tier would be a higher budget game with a lower tier being a lower budget game. As platform holders moving forward they should recognize that you need a balance you can't create a machine for the higher tier and expect to get lower tier products. Lower tier doesn't mean crap it means the focus is different it could be more experimentation than on graphical fidelity. That is what has went wrong with this generation the Xbox 360 and PS3 were designed for the high end and ignored the lower end you need both. Nintendo focused on lower end specs but because they are a top tier developer they can create high end products that push hardware and software for a lower spec machine that is something that most 3rd party developers don't because of their focus on technology. The videogame industry is not a technology industry it is an entertainment one who used technology for entertainment but fundamentally regardless of technology it is engaging and fun software that matters. Nintendo read the market much better and they have the ability to create products that can move consumers upstream and they dominate in both tiers because regardless of what type of product they are creating whether it is a Mario Galaxy or a Wii Series they are committed to a high level of quality and fun.

Very well put gaheris! That is the exact way I see it. Of course, so many fans focus on the AAA games developers put out, they ignore that other facet of the market.

 

[Flakster99]

Third parties want Wii to fail so they can justify pouring money into HD technology.

A little harsh, under-perform would probably fit more inline with their (3rd parties) general thought process about the Wii. But your point is definitely understood, by me, and by many others.

Some food for thought.

On a 1UP Yours podcast (28th of July, 2006), Scott Steinberg of Sega, VP of marketing, was on the show. There was a conservation about allocation of resources, and he goes on to state that they (Sega) will have good software available for the Wii and for the 360, yet, their primary support lies in the PS3. That the PS3 was going in (next gen) as the console to beat, even after the E3 600$ unveiling.

He goes on to quantify his statement, stating he feels as such because of the power of the PS3, market power that is, due to the PS2 (PlayStation being the #1 brand world-wide). That they (Sega) have hitched their wagon to Sony, that Sony will sell everything that they ship in the first year. Everything was predicated (resources, budget, marketing, developers) far in advance (before the PS3/Wii launched).

It is safe to say the Square-Enix, Capcom, Konami, Take-Two, Ubisofts' of the world put themselves in the exact, same position. Hook. Line. Sinker.

 

[JaMarco]

Actually, alot of the games GAF would dismiss sell well enough in relation to their development budget that it encourages 3rd parties to make software that doesn't align with the typical GAF mentality of only playing big budget mega AAA exclusive titles and seeing the top 10 sales charts once a month in the NPD threads.

One of the things I read on this site once that I think gets ignored quite a bit was the warning someone posted stating that the people with the mindset of someone who posts on GAF or similar sites and understand the concept of "shovelware" aren't as important as they think they are.

It seems Wii is proving that notion to be very true.

this is correct

 

[DarkMage619]

Except for the tens of millions who will own a Wii and nothing else.

I've said it before, but developers need to look at the Wii as a long term investment, and I don't mean just mean for this generation. Nintendo is in the best position to win next generation, bar a PS3 level screw up. In my mind, all they have to do is increase the power of the console, make montion sensing better/more precise, and chuck in an extra 'gimmick' to draw people in. Or, launch it with Wii Sports 2.

Publishers should take the opportunity to gain mindshare and create franchises on the Wii that can carry over to the next generation. Those who lump all their eggs into the HD basket this generation are looking at increased irrelevance next generation.

I hope you are wrong. There is no way I'd like to see game consoles revert back to technology of yesterday just cause it will make certan game companies more money. If you own a Wii and nothing else you must be happy with what that platform provides and shouldn't really care about missing out on RE, GTAs, and Final Fantasies. Those franchises were never really Nintendo staples to begin with, Mario is/was/always will be.

Right now things are pretty balanced software wise. 360 and PS3 offer more cutting edge graphical show pieces titles that focus more on traditional forms of control for higher costs and the Wii pushes the more family oriented titles with a different way of control for a lower cost. There is room for BOTH. I think people have forgotten the old days when Nintendo ruled the industry. Needless to say that 3rd parties did NOT think things were so great and that explains why so many of them jumped ship when they had an opportunity to do so.

Don't let blind love for Nintendo fool you into believing that they are what is best for the industry as a whole. They are looking out for just one thing, Nintendo. All companies do, which is why it is important that as many companies as possible have as many ways as possible to create their gaming visions. One of the BEST things about the industry currently is that both 3rd parties and Nintendo have ways to make some decent money and positive impact. That is the way it should be and I wouldn't have it any other way. I do not think that Nintendo getting all major 3rd party titles would be a good thing. Be happy for Nintendo's success, but their success does not mean that 3rd parties must follow them to the Wii.

The Dark One

 

[Bizzyb]

A little harsh, under-perform would probably fit more inline with their (3rd parties) general thought process about the Wii. But your point is definitely understood, by me, and by many others.

Some food for thought.

On a 1UP Yours podcast (28th of July, 2006), Scott Steinberg of Sega, VP of marketing, was on the show. There was a conservation about allocation of resources, and he goes on to state that they (Sega) will have good software available for the Wii and for the 360, yet, their primary support lies in the PS3. That the PS3 was going in (next gen) as the console to beat, even after the E3 600$ unveiling.

He goes on to quantify his statement, stating he feels as such because of the power of the PS3, market power that is, due to the PS2 (PlayStation being the #1 brand world-wide). That they (Sega) have hitched their wagon to Sony, that Sony will sell everything that they ship in the first year. Everything was predicated (resources, budget, marketing, developers) far in advance (before the PS3/Wii launched).

It is safe to say the Square-Enix, Capcom, Konami, Take-Two, Ubisofts' of the world put themselves in the exact, same position. Hook. Line. Sinker.

That's what you get when you count your eggs before they hatch. I could have seen Wii domination coming a mile away simply from it's first E3 performance, yet publishers were still calling it (more like praying it would be) a "fad". Remember that word? "Fad"..."oh, the Wii is just a fad, it's selling way too hot to not be".....yeah.

Seems like now publishers act as if they have no choice but to develop games for it. I almost get the sense that some of them are even resentful of the Wii and the situation it has placed them in.

Sad really....even within total domination Nintendo still cannot seem to get any truly decent support.

 

[Night_Trekker]

That's what you get when you count your eggs before they hatch. I could have seen Wii domination coming a mile away simply from it's first E3 performance, yet publishers were still calling it (more like praying it would be) a "fad". Remember that word? "Fad"..."oh, the Wii is just a fad, it's selling way too hot to not be".....yeah.

Remember it? It hasn't gone anywhere yet. Now it's everyone waiting for the Wii "bubble" to burst.

 

[Deku]

I think problem is really the diversity and quantity.

When you get into PS3/360/PC territority, its a very specific brand of games, usually in the FPS/shooter genre thants being ported. Strategy games that are huge on the PC don't port well, unless they're built from the ground up like Civ Rev, and I still think Firaxis is going to make the best ROI out of their very competent DS effort instead of the two console versions.

In that kind of economic climate, its easy to say PS4/360/PC for the west, but it negates the fact that is also means drastically scaled back release schedules from publishers all around.

That's not a win, it's a disaster.

 

[Bizzyb]

Remember it? It hasn't gone anywhere yet. Now it's everyone waiting for the Wii "bubble" to burst.

I think people have more or less, accepted the Wii to be this years PS2. The trend is very clear, after nearly two years. Wii is mainstream, "new", and affordable. It's what the mass market wants. I don't think anyone is realistically waiting for the Wii "bubble" to burst anymore than they are for the DS bubble to burst. Maybe a few individual people or pubs here and there but that's not the general consensus I see going around.

 

[flintstryker]

If getting western support from 3rd means getting fps #576437 then i would rather not have any.

 

[PantherLotus]

If getting western support from 3rd means getting fps #576437 then i would rather not have any.

I can see that you have considered this a long time before posting.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

The Dark One

Is this, like, the message board equivalent of a speech impediment or something?

I only ask because I don't want to make fun of you about it and then someone leans over to me and says "Dude, he can't help it, he hit his head as a kid."

 

[flintstryker]

I can see that you have considered this a long time before posting.

you obviously haven't.

 

[Shin Johnpv]

Except artists choose the medium they want to work with and fits their talents. Just because someone wants to work with HD assets doesn't mean they are wrong.

Not really. Unless you only want to do work for yourself and starve to death. Artists work in the medium that the person contracting them to do do the work wants them to work in. If you're a painter, you may find oil paints to be the best medium to work in, but if some one is contracting you to do a painting and they want a water color, well you better use water color or they aren't buying your work.

 

[PantherLotus]

you obviously haven't.

So all major western exclusives are generic FPS games? What kind of argument is that? Have you been reading this thread, or any threads, for the past two years? Why do you think that's an acceptable statement to make on this forum? Didn't that meme die?

Is this, like, the message board equivalent of a speech impediment or something?

I only ask because I don't want to make fun of you about it and then someone leans over to me and says "Dude, he can't help it, he hit his head as a kid."

I know it looks an awful lot like a signature and that shit is like capital offense #1 around here. Looks like he earned his tag though.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

Is this, like, the message board equivalent of a speech impediment or something?

I only ask because I don't want to make fun of you about it and then someone leans over to me and says "Dude, he can't help it, he hit his head as a kid."

If you don't then I will, and I have a feeling what you come up with will be a hell of a lot funnier.

 

[Shin Johnpv]

2) Devs don't like where the Wii is taking gaming.

Dev's and ever hardware manufacturer's don't get to decide where gaming goes. The consumers spending money do.

 

[jarrod]

Wii eating the majority of JP support was a given after 2007... the more interesting question I think is if giving Wii their choice support could result in Japanese developers and publishers retaking the lead in worldwide game R&D again? Is the west positioning themselves to be swept over again, like in the 1980s?

 

[PantherLotus]

Wii eating the majority of JP support was a given after 2007... the more interesting question I think is if giving Wii their choice support could result in Japanese developers and publishers retaking the lead in worldwide game R&D again? Is the west positioning themselves to be swept over again, like in the 1980s?

Now would be a good time to start a "what is a western exclusive?" list. Make sure we're all on the same page. I was thinking of GTAIV, Halo, Oblivion, Mass Effect, Bioshock, etc.

Dev's and ever hardware manufacturer's don't get to decide where gaming goes. The consumers spending money do.

Finally a coherent point!

Unfortunately, I'm not sure how deep of a point it is. I mean, what happens when pubs decide what to invest in? What happens when big budget games ($20 mill +) are made for generally niche audiences and they sell a million copies, but low budget games (under $10 mill) sell a few hundred thousand? What would happen if they put a big budget game on the low budget system?

So yeah, while the consumer eventually votes with his or her dollar, that dollar will be spent on whatever is offered. If all that is offered is high budget games on high budget systems, and low budget games on low budget systems, eventually there will be a disconnect between the consumer and the publisher. But that would take so long as to be completely immeasurable.

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

Out of interest, is there a reason other than lack of public data that you have defined 'Western' as 'North American'?

Because I'm pretty sure that in Europe things are not so rosy for the HD consoles as they are in the NPD, and I'm also pretty sure that large publishers can see what kind of sales they're getting globally even if we do not.

Ubisoft might be crapping out shovelware to fund their HD games right now, but if the tides turn Nintendos way any more, I dont think that will last. I also suspect Infogrames Ataris money problems might lead them to reconsider leading on HD consoles.

Unless some (as yet unknown) game causes massive sales surges for the HD consoles, European publishers are going to be next to jump on the Wii bandwagon... I would expect some fairly big titles to be announced this E3 from at least one of them if only to 'test the waters.'