Not gonna happen. Just people speculating.
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Satoru Iwata: Nintendo 2013 R&D Preview [Large Scale Restructure, New Miyamoto Team]
- Thread starter Shikamaru Ninja
- Start date
Not gonna happen. Just people speculating.
Mihael Mello Keehl
Banned
I was just talkin out of my ass.
Great news! I'm not as concerned with new IPs as everyone else is though. Nintendo games generally have excellent (and sometimes innovative) gameplay, no matter the coat of paint. But I understand the importance of establishing a new and successful intellectual property.
I don't think Nintendo is going anywhere in my lifetime, considering how valuable their franchises are and how astute their management is. Iwata has always given the impression of being extremely savvy. The problem with Nintendo is Nintendo of America. NoA's figurehead is very unlikable and they seem generally out-of-touch with consumers. They certainly don't appease their fans at all, and I think the success of the Wii and DS in America had everything to do with timing and quality of product, and absolutely nothing to do with NoA's pathetic efforts. In fact those two products were huge successes in spite of NoA in my opinion.
I don't think Nintendo is going anywhere in my lifetime, considering how valuable their franchises are and how astute their management is. Iwata has always given the impression of being extremely savvy. The problem with Nintendo is Nintendo of America. NoA's figurehead is very unlikable and they seem generally out-of-touch with consumers. They certainly don't appease their fans at all, and I think the success of the Wii and DS in America had everything to do with timing and quality of product, and absolutely nothing to do with NoA's pathetic efforts. In fact those two products were huge successes in spite of NoA in my opinion.
because what that actually means to me is we'll get crap like Wii Music and Wii Sports, because those require significantly less resources to make than a modern title aimed at hardcore gamers.
I'd love to be wrong, but especially now that Wii U is a HD platform, budgets and teams required will be even higher. Only way I can imagine it being different is if he goes Wii U Ware, and even then... Miyamoto's inclination these days as it relates to 'new' stuff does not seem to trend toward games like Mario so much as more casual fare.
HyperCubed4
Member
I like the idea of having a smaller studio that Miyamoto can work with. Totally reminds me of that Extra Credits episode about innovation. Mind you, they're referring to companies like EA and Activision having smaller, indie branches they can take risks with, but it could work with Nintendo.
lunchwithyuzo
Banned
Despite the low end assets, I don't think Wii Sports or Wii Music were really "low resource" games. I imagine there was endless prototyping and longer dev cycles on both than people realize.
Miyamoto's new group would probably be more along the lines of the SDD team, who did Brain-Age, Jam with the Band and Photo Dojo. Low budget stuff that woild probably be best suited to eShop.
Miyamoto's new group would probably be more along the lines of the SDD team, who did Brain-Age, Jam with the Band and Photo Dojo. Low budget stuff that woild probably be best suited to eShop.
Blood Diamonds
Banned
You really think a poor improvisational midi game and a bunch of stripped down bare motion sports going to cost much to make? Shit, motion sports games were being made well before Nintendo came to the table, so it's not even like the idea was so radical that it would have required years of tinkering.
Still, maybe you're right, but it certainly didn't feel like it. I imagine the marketing budget cost triple what the game did to make. God, I hope they didn't spend much if that is the gameplay result
I wish game companies would release budgets in their financial stock holding meetings
'Anyway, your idea of what the 'small team' means is exactly why it wouldn't mean much to me. That's sort of what I suspect too, and therefore it'd be pointless. Miyamoto should just let his legacy stand and move on to brighter horizons. Dude is getting up in age, isn't he? 60s?
metalslimer
Member
Wii Sports and Resorts budget were probably a good bit higher than what they seem due to the actual R&D of motion controls for Wii Sports and the creation of M+ that went along with Wii Sports Resort.
That's the beauty of a small team. They could make more casual games or they could do some crazy shit that wouldn't fly with for a normal game. Just get miyamoto together with about 10-20 people and let them do all kinds of crazy shit on a small budget.
That's the beauty of a small team. They could make more casual games or they could do some crazy shit that wouldn't fly with for a normal game. Just get miyamoto together with about 10-20 people and let them do all kinds of crazy shit on a small budget.
Oh, for fuck' sake... Firstly, this restructuring, if true, would have absolutely jack shit to do with dev/pub "contempt". See Kaijima's post. Secondly, do yourself a favor and stop entertaining thoughts of embarrassingly hyperbolic nonsense such as "pubs/devs holding Nintendo in contempt". It's stupidly disingenuous. Third parties made a lot of great games on the Wii, just not the ones that have appeared on the 360/PS3/PC (for reasons that, for some reason, are not obvious to you). And for the devs/pubs that aren't already on the Nintendo boat, they're satisfied with the HD twins/PC revenue streams. You can make a point that they are potentially (important operating term here) leaving money on the table. That would be because of questionable business acumen, not some asinine conspiracy theory. As budgets increase - as the money brought in by said audience no longer cuts it - they're going to have to stop ignoring Nintendo systems (at some point, at least) now that they have adequately modern hardware.
I can give you this, I suppose.
This sentiment is enacted by your personal dissatisfaction with Skyward Sword/recent TLoZ titles/the direction the series is going in, I take it? If that's the case, then no, they don't have to "bomb" anything.
why would we include the R&D for M+ in the budget of Wii Sports Resort? That is a peripheral being designed for a multitude of games so that the controller would finally do what it was advertised to do, seems a little unfair to include that in its price.
I'd say it'd be more accurate to include the balance board in the budget for Wii Fit then it would be to include M+ in Resort's.
gaheris
Member
Well we know Nintendo prototypes forever, sometimes years so I imagine that once they knew they were going to do motion controls a lot of the prototypes helped to test the hardware as much as were proof of concept. So I can see the time and budget being much higher than we actually know or understand.
Gamer @ Heart
Member
I wonder how many more producer super groups they are going to add to go with the flood of hiring they have been doing.
metalslimer
Member
Because Wii Sports and M+ were basically joint developed together. The team that made was heavily involved in its development. And with how many games ended up using the Balance board, I could say M+ and the balance board were basically made for the same purpose. Hell Skyward Sword wasn't even going to use M+ originally.
Blood Diamonds
Banned
Wait does this mean Miyamoto will not be part of Nintendo in 2013?
well miyamoto was the main guy to push for more difficulty in the level design in nsmbw (the veterans, in general, have a view of mario as less of a kids game). and i believe he contributed to the level design personally, although i forget the interview which that comes from. he's also the guy who told koizumi to cut that shit out with story in mario, and we got the immeasurably superior smg2 as a result.
i think experimentation is good. wii sports and wii music were good ideas but probably needed more time in the cooker. i mean, i'm not entirely convinced kinect is 100% awful 100% of the time. when you're a designer, you don't turn your mind off to any particular one idea. that's how you get people like david cage and jason rubin.
if he's working with a small team, i think it'll be for eshop stuff. maybe just a couple of people instead of upwards of 30 (which is still kind of small these days) or much more. i think that's how the artstyle games were made. i haven't played them, but they seemed well received, at least back when they were gba games.
Considering the "Wii ____" titles are Nintendo's biggest sellers, I imagine the overall budget for developing these games is quite high by this point. Surely the assets aren't expensive to make, but the games are probably focus-tested and marketed to hell and back... or something.
metalslimer
Member
No, it means he won't be the general manager anymore. Basically semi retirement to begin a slow phase into retirement as he probably wouldn't just up and leave the company.
He'll be a part of Nintendo, just a newer team. Nintendo EAD is a developer... the one S. Ninja is talking about would be a new developer within the company.
Eggplant Wizard
Member
I feel like those games were designed by Miyamoto the Businessman (or maybe Miyamoto the Marketer) rather than Miyamoto the Inventor. They excited him because of their accessibility, not because of their actual content. It's definitely possible that he might end up making more games like that, but I've always gotten the sense that he's thinking in the other direction.
No, it means you'll have to read OP again.
metalslimer
Member
Actually, I think he was very excited to make Wii Music (not sure why wii sports is really being included here because Miyamoto had very little to do with either of them and Wii Sports was actually a fun minigame collection), but the concept didn't really turn out nearly as exciting as it sounded in his head.
Hopefully it helps them solve the HD crisis other Japanese developers went through.
Gamer @ Heart
Member
That seems like a management issue. Scope vs time and money. I cant see nintendo, with so many employees and effective leadership so far, falling into that.
Blood Diamonds
Banned
gaheris
Member
Doesn't Nintendo already develop HD assets for most of their 1st games? Isn't that why SMG scales so well.
I do feel Wii Music/Sports/Fit were ideas that came about cause Miyamoto desperately wanted to some how utilize the motion control/Wii Fit peripheral in some way, even if it didn't make sense. With the Wii-U, it doesn't have any real gimmicky things to worry about, so it's quite possible that this could result in a more 80s/90s Miyamoto rather than the mini game Miyamoto during the Wii period.
god how much easier would NSMBW have been without him then? The game was basically cakewalk prime until the last two worlds.
Anyway, if his role was just 'contributing ideas to already established stuff', then nothing would change. I'm talking specifically when he decides to design new games, and that tends to lean casual and simple these days.
Man, I do not even think Wii Music is a good idea. A bunch of horrifying open library music tunes "Happy Birthday to You" and "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star" and the best you can do is improvise awkwardly with the worst sounding midi sequencing known to man? This is a bad idea, Ani. A baaaaad idea! If you could compose your own midi tracks it'd start to be a different story though, but this is not a particularly new concept
And Wii Sports is just 'let's strip sports of every thing that makes them compelling but with motion gestural mimicking!' They should have dropped the rest and just made Wii Bowling and Golf, since at least that is one sport which faithfully followed what the sport did, and then they could have added modes, features and presentational depth to really flesh it out. Instead, baseball with no outfielding or baserunning, almost no golf courses, tennis without movement, etc... not sure these are good ideas either man
We'll see. I know he is still talented, I just think what is important to him these days is significantly different than what is important to me. So it's sort of like I hope he retires and enjoys his life, but his impact on gaming for me is diminished more every year. I think new blood might be good for Nintendo. Too much reliance on one person can lead to stagnation or echo chambers.
I think Motion+ was going to be developed because they knew Sony or Microsoft was going to make a controller that was inherently superior to their motion option, and Nintendo wouldn't have wanted to fall behind. That they might have been made at the same time and had input from the developers who would use it in the future does not, in my estimation, mean we should include it in Wii Resort's budget. But I can agree to disagree, unless they have said that M+ would not exist without Wii Sports Resort?
Oblivion said:
What is your opinion on the Wii U's increase power/HD perhaps inhibiting Miyamoto's ability to do make 80s/90s style titles without having a bigger team/budget? It's not that I don't think it may be in him, it's that I think the world is moving in a direction which makes it more complicated to do this on a 'small scale.'
metalslimer
Member
Wait how in the world did Wii Sports and Fit not make sense for a motion control stick and a glorified scale? Wii Music was a disaster, but even the most basic of people would look at the Wiimote and say a sports game was perfect for it.
I do feel the need to point out that even Miyamoto's "designed" games like Steel Diver and Wii Music were not actually designed by him. And Wii Sports and Fit were not him besides his usual general manager roles. Miyamoto hasn't had an actual design role in a LONG time. I think maybe Pikmin. You should be blaming Eguchi
brochiller
Member
How many of these "devs" are actually Ninjas lurking in the shadows?
Jason's Ultimatum
Member
I hope by Miyamoto focusing on smaller indie games, they're talking more along the lines of Flower/Journey type games.
gamergirly
Member
1999 of them are Ninjas. The 2000th one is you
Steel Diver was a neat, technical, short game that was worth every penny IMO. Wii Music was an experimental, musical title that should've been $29.96 or less. As far Wii Sports, worth the $49.96 that we didn't pay
I always get mixed signals when people talk about his role in these things. I don't know what to believe anymore
False, Skyward Sword was a masterpiece, and Twilight Princess is a top 5 game in the series.
No way in hell Miyamoto would degrade himself to creating those kinds of games lol. Yikes, would be an unprecedented disaster.
metalslimer
Member
Well if you believe the Iwata Asks, Miyamoto doesn't design anything anymore. He chimes in with a few ideas on certain games, but there is no way in hell for him to actually be knee deep in development because as general manager he has to look at like 20 games at once. At this point, he's much more of a PR person.
Good thing he didn't "create them". I can see why Shikamaru gets so test when it comes to Miyamoto because it seems like people attribute every thing Nintendo does to him.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
So some of these mothafuckas can get to work on the new Star Fox or F-Zero, right?
Jason's Ultimatum
Member
They're both amazing games. I just used those two as an example of games that are out of the norm. Hell, make 2D puzzle/platforming games or something.
Now creating Wii Sports and Resorts....that's degrading.
I dunno, I just feel that Wii-U is more of a traditional console in the way all Nintendo's systems were prior to the Wii. Indie games have been made for XBLA and PSN, so I don't think it would be much of a problem or a few talented recruits at Nintendo. A 15-20 person sized group should be more than adequate, I would think.
No, you're right. I phrased it poorly. Sports and Fit absolutely did make sense in the context of what they were trying to do. What I meant was, especially in the case of Wii Fit, the peripherals would kind of limit the kinds of things that a developer would be able to do that gamers, at least in a place like gaf, would find appealing.
The Wii-U doesn't (at least at this point) have such a thing to deal with.
I agree, it's part of what makes Wii U more exciting for me than Wii ever was. I hope small teams does mean he can make some rad Wii U Ware titles like Fez or something then, because that would be its own sort of dream come true.
shiet son, Journey and Flower are amazing games now?
We're getting off topic anyway.
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
In terms of concept, Wii Music is a classic Miyamoto brainstorming session.
In execution, I've always suspected that it suffered from Nintendo, at that time, being unsure how "intense" a gaming experience the fresh mainstream Wii customer would tolerate before being overwhelmed and feeling turned off. Nintendo was afraid for a long time of everything from "too much competitiveness", to online experiences confusing or scaring people. If you recall, from Iwata Asks, they claim they were even afraid that the much-lauded postgame in Super Mario 3D Land was "too much content", as if it would be too much for the average player to handle.
Wii Music might have really been something if it was a more robust package. It was the anemic nature of it, and mediocre selection of music, that earned a lot of negative reviews and poor player impressions.
IMO there's nothing wrong at all with the general directions Miyamoto experiments in. Just about any game concept can be made "hardcore" in terms of execution; you just have to take it a bit further. Pikmin has always stood out as a game which it seems you'd never see come out of most studios, and most studios would never at a glance associate with "hardcore" gaming or game design. But as the series developed with Pikmin 2, it's an extremely robust, meaty game that stands up to just about any gamer's test. (And a big reason why people are so hyped for Pikmin 3.)
It's odd, but for all the shit Nintendo has gotten for not launching Wii U with one huge first party OMFG, AAA+A 'hardcore' game (with hardcore evidently being judged in production value budget)... Nintendo by the same coin is one large publisher that will not feel they have to make every major title compete with the whole industry as a production value showcase. They will put leading, world beating developers onto "odd" games, niche games, quirky games, and entirely original ideas. (To be entirely fair to the rest of the industry, Sony does deserve some credit for continuing to do this sort of thing as well, in spite of everything else they do.)
In that regard, Nintendo may be better equipped to deal with HD development than people think, because many can't seem to draw a distinction in their mind between a developer being incapable of making a game that uses as much technology and production as possible, and a developer choosing not to do so. Regardless of how uncool it is to some, they will probably remain committed to only deploying as much resources to get a job done as efficiently as possible, even if they could go further and impress people with how much they could do.
Sorry to say, I find this kind of thing to be at the root of the attitude problem with game players within a certain demographic. Wii Sports and Resort are fantastic games, even if you don't think they look hip or cool enough for what gaming "deserves". There's more authentic video game in Wii Sports Resort than in a dozen titles like Journey - though I recognize that Journey is an "art piece" and not really "a mere, vulgar game".
It's also why Nintendo will remain uncool to a certain, always replenishing age range of technology enthusiasts. They're never going to stop making stuff that embarrasses you, if stuff like Wii Sports bothers you.
More WiiU Fit for everyone!
god how much easier would NSMBW have been without him then? The game was basically cakewalk prime until the last two worlds.
Anyway, if his role was just 'contributing ideas to already established stuff', then nothing would change. I'm talking specifically when he decides to design new games, and that tends to lean casual and simple these days.
well, things would be generally worse. see smg vs smg2 or nsmb vs nsmbw. however, he is responsible for the visor in metroid prime, reigning in aonuma's ambitions, and the blowing in dkcr, so maybe it's something of a wash. my point with bringing up the mario games is that he still seems to get a kick out of helping out with more traditional games too, otherwise he would probably be more hands-off.
Man, I do not even think Wii Music is a good idea. A bunch of horrifying open library music tunes "Happy Birthday to You" and "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star" and the best you can do is improvise awkwardly with the worst sounding midi sequencing known to man? This is a bad idea, Ani. A baaaaad idea! If you could compose your own midi tracks it'd start to be a different story though, but this is not a particularly new concept
And Wii Sports is just 'let's strip sports of every thing that makes them compelling but with motion gestural mimicking!' They should have dropped the rest and just made Wii Bowling and Golf, since at least that is one sport which faithfully followed what the sport did, and then they could have added modes, features and presentational depth to really flesh it out. Instead, baseball with no outfielding or baserunning, almost no golf courses, tennis without movement, etc... not sure these are good ideas either man
a good idea, meaning, the original pitch. let's have a game where you can use motion controls to create music with a variety of instruments. the execution probably wasn't great (i wouldn't know, since i haven't played it, but i'll take people's word on it), but it was worth the initial exploration.
wii sports wound up being a much more fleshed out idea in execution. i agree that tennis and baseball weren't thrill rides, but the exploration wasn't a bad thing. the best thing about wii sports is that there was that it felt likes something people wanted to do to satisfy their curiosity of motion controls, unlike the nintendoland-thing which feels forced and cynical.
i think this move to smaller teams is great in that it finally lets others do their own thing. while tezuka will have his hands full, i don't see him upending tea tables. aonuma and koizumi being allowed to do their own thing is an exciting prospect, but aonuma at least will probably keep making zelda.
if miyamoto's working with younger guys, i see it as sort of a design boot camp for them. they'd be learning from a really talented guy on how to think like a designer. and i'm sure if he recognizes some talent, they'd move up the ranks pretty quickly. i see it as sort of a miyamoto legacy team being created that would eventually replace eguchi, aonuma, and koizumi in 15 years or so, assuming nintendo's still around.
Afro Gunsou
Banned
The two bolded are what have me excited. Sakurai joining EAD Tokyo is a dream come true and more new IPs = more interest on my end. Exciting stuff.
I guess Miyamoto stepping down can both be seen as a great thing, and a not so great thing. However, I do think the good outweighs the bad. Miyamoto was pretty much the head guy making sure Retro did not fuck up Metroid Prime. He helped them mash together western and Japanese development philosophies into a perfect blend of awesome that was Prime.
But...he also is probably keeping a few of the younger guys at Nintendo in check by thinking their ideas are too out there or not good enough, and without him being there as a barrier, it should help Nintendo overall create new experiences with existing IPs by taking some giant leap, ala Super Mario Galaxy. And of course, help pave the way for new IPs.
I do agree with the majority of you that Retro needs to be expanded. Yes it sucks for Nintendo that western developers don't adhere to corporate loyalty, we go where the money is. But if they want to battle at all for the western market, they need to the roll the dice and change some shit up. However from the way things have been looking, they might already be doing this, quietly. Retro, while still not a massive team, has been hiring like mad this past year, and just the other day put a new ad on the official FB for a Software Engineer.
Also Platinum...Nintendo has claimed they won't outright buy studios anymore because of the brain drain problem that happened at Rare and, to a lesser extent, Retro. However, Platinum is no ordinary company, they have some of the best Japanese talent in the industry under their roof, yet not the sales numbers to reflect it. Nintendo could be trying to buy their loyalty by funding their games for the foreseeable future, which would then lead to mutual trust between them. Then, Nintendo makes the move to make Platinum a first-party developer. Nintendo dominating Japan next generation becomes a certainty.
But...he also is probably keeping a few of the younger guys at Nintendo in check by thinking their ideas are too out there or not good enough, and without him being there as a barrier, it should help Nintendo overall create new experiences with existing IPs by taking some giant leap, ala Super Mario Galaxy. And of course, help pave the way for new IPs.
I do agree with the majority of you that Retro needs to be expanded. Yes it sucks for Nintendo that western developers don't adhere to corporate loyalty, we go where the money is. But if they want to battle at all for the western market, they need to the roll the dice and change some shit up. However from the way things have been looking, they might already be doing this, quietly. Retro, while still not a massive team, has been hiring like mad this past year, and just the other day put a new ad on the official FB for a Software Engineer.
Also Platinum...Nintendo has claimed they won't outright buy studios anymore because of the brain drain problem that happened at Rare and, to a lesser extent, Retro. However, Platinum is no ordinary company, they have some of the best Japanese talent in the industry under their roof, yet not the sales numbers to reflect it. Nintendo could be trying to buy their loyalty by funding their games for the foreseeable future, which would then lead to mutual trust between them. Then, Nintendo makes the move to make Platinum a first-party developer. Nintendo dominating Japan next generation becomes a certainty.