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Seduction-age |OT| The only way to win is to play the game
- Thread starter SquiddyCracker
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FelixOrion
Poet Centuriate
He never defined the difference between assertiveness and aggressiveness. I know a difference was implied but he's really ambiguous as to examples of differences
I bought 'The Game' on Kindle a couple of days ago (thanks to this thread, I actually remember hearing about the book some years back) and so far (60% through) it has been a fantastic read. Many laughs have been had.
Edit: And just finished it. Great read and look into the PUA scene.
Edit: And just finished it. Great read and look into the PUA scene.
Ken Masters
Banned
A co-worker of mine is really really into this shit, he said he paid thousands of dollars to attend a "bootcamp" where these "experts" lecture all day like a seminar and they they hit the bars/clubs for actual practice. As he described everything to me it was quite fascinating how they talked about everything you don't really even think about and just do. He's as beta as they come and he said the other people in attendance were equally beta. I've gone out with him so he can show me his new techniques. I told him it's laughable how much he tries to analyze every part of the male female interaction. Fact is, a girl is either going to find you attractive or not before you open your mouth, and if you're not attractive to her from the jump all the tricks, manipulations and routines aren't going to help.
Devolution
Member
Ken you sure love the alpha/beta terminology though.
The best way to play is to be above the game - Brent "ZeroRay" Smith
Ken Masters
Banned
because it's really all that it boils down to at the end of the day. I find all this lingo and strategies legit interesting to read but it doesn't mean shit.
walk into a bar/club, you can spot out the alphas/betas in a second based on their body language, just like girls do instinctively. All this neg/"insert terminology" is just a waste.
Devolution
Member
Do you consider yourself an alpha?
Ken Masters
Banned
No
I have friends that are true alphas though and it's all body language which will exude all the confidence in the world without having to say a damn word. It actually matters very little what you say in bars/clubs (unless you say something completely moronic). I see them walk into a bar in and I just can take a few steps back and I notice girls are turning heads looking at them and it's a wrap from there. It's all instinct for them, don't think, just act. I've seen them blow off 9s only to have the same girls fight for their attention later in the night.
When I entered college I was 50 pounds overweight and a beta nerd like you'd expect, never once had girls come to me or show any interest. I dropped 50 pounds in 5 months, mainly over the summer and I noticed a dramatic shift in how girls reacted to me. I went from a 6ft 4inch fat ass to a 6ft 4inch lean guy. At first I wasn't sure what was going on and seriously had no idea how to react when girls would approach me out of the blue. I was completely clueless. I couldn't comprehend that females actually for the first time in my life had an attraction to me. But as my confidence grew, my body language changed, and the way I talked to girls changed. Again, little to do with what's coming out of your mouth but more with how you're saying it.
I'm still a beta at heart though, being most of your life a beta, you're not going to suddenly learn new instincts be something you're not. This PUA stuff is fun to talk about but not practical.
DanteFox
Member
typical beta mindset.
Ken Masters
Banned
I am a beta, no alpha gives a flying fuck about strategies or anything that isn't something that is pure instinct. And if you still think it's anything but body language that matters you're sorely mistaken
Smashing Drive
Banned
I dont think it needs to be this scientific some techniques probably work but like any type of sales job the best way to become good at it is to keep getting rejected until the thought of being rejected doesnt even phase you. Women equate this with confidence.
This is actually good advice for a lot of things, but I fear it may fall on deaf ears because you can't really package it into a reductionist catch-all "system" like alpha/beta or a hokey "method" like this pick-up artistry.
Also never mind the fact that the alpha male/beta male dichotomy is largely considered to be outdated and inaccurate in the study of the species it's supposedly based on.
The Hermit
Member
how the hell did I miss this thread? this is hilarious, and true too; I've suffered a LMR last friday!
Ken Masters
Banned
if you honestly believe alpha/beta is some outdated concept then I'm going to guess you haven't stepped foot in a bar or club before
What I meant is that observing some people consistently wooing the opposite sex doesn't really prove the idea of an unfailing social hierarchy that cleanly divides all humans into haves and have-nots.
Devolution
Member
Hilarious assumptions.
Ken Masters
Banned
because no place is the difference between alpha/beta more at display then a bar or club
Devolution
Member
Yeah "alphas" never get rejected. Nice little dichotomy you've set up to explain social interactions. So simple minded.
Ken Masters
Banned
please quote me where I said that....I'm waiting
only an idiot would think anyone would insinuate alphas NEVER got rejected, that's like saying a professional basketball player never misses a shot, but would you think he's no better then the average joe playing ball?
stop jumping to extreme accusations to prove your point when you can't disprove mine
Devolution
Member
I don't really need to disprove it I'm wondering where the actual definitions come in and how someone can move from one to the other, or if they can, or if the terms are just some petty nonsense made up by people with agendas.
You kind of have to prove your own assertions with something more rigorous than "GO TO A BAR OR CLUB! IT'S OBVIOUS!" before sending other people on a quest to prove you wrong.
Ken Masters
Banned
if both of you think my alpha/beta talk is wrong, then what do you think is right? (I'm not trying to be a smart ass, I'm legitimately asking)
The null hypothesis, of course. A certain subset of men having great luck with women in a certain setting under certain circumstances does not imply that the only possible classifications are that group and forever alone beta untermensch.
Vermillion
Banned
That can't be proven one way or the other, iirc.
Devolution
Member
As someone who's seen her fair share of great men stay single (either for the night or relationship-wise) or not (either by choice or not) I'd say it's much more complicated than any sort of system. Mostly I was amused at your hatred of PUA while while you were basically using the same gross oversimplification they do, except they're trying to sell something.
Ken Masters
Banned
I don't hate PUA community, I think it's very interesting but also believe they are wrong. My "oversimplification" of alpha/beta stems from the fact that more often then not that's what it boils down to. And you say you know great guys who are single, who's to say a great guy can't be beta? And being alpha doesn't mean you get laid 100% of the time you go out, exaggerations like this are a waste of everyones time
Edit: but someone as simple minded as you wouldn't understand
Ken don't bother. Devolution is not worth having a conversation with because you're never actually having a conversation, she just talks at you.
You are missing a huge point though and that is that maybe you shouldn't be hanging out at bars or clubs for the purpose of picking up women if that's where you feel less than adequate.
Really I'd ask anyone, why the fuck would you hang out somewhere where you feel like a schmuck?
And stop reading about this PUA shit it'll warp your brain. Don't you hate it anyway? You know about social status, you've seen it, that's where you need to stop your stupid study.
I'm gonna de-idiotize you (that's what PUA is, idiocy) and put it in normal people words.
Go where you feel comfortable, make friends, make sure you feel comfortable, have a good time and girls will notice you. From there you can, shocker, maybe meet girls. And when you're comfortable, you tend to flirt naturally without thinking about lines unless you had drill sergeant parents. And when you're comfortable you stop thinking about pecking order.
PUA is a steaming pile of shit, with a few nuggets of wisdom. Good on you for getting in shape, that's half the battle. The rest is going to places that you like to go, not places that your friends like to go.
The problem is that there's no particular reason to sort them into just two categories if all you're doing is measuring success rate without correlating it to anything. All you've said is "body language," which is incredibly vague.
Hey, a glimmer of sanity in this God-forsaken thread!
Slamming Devo and not me seemed a little silly though, considering we've been saying almost exactly the same things for this entire exchange.
Ken Masters
Banned
I understand your point that PUA stuff is full of shit. I came in this thread to discuss because I've been exposed to it by someone I know who follows it religiously. But I am quite comfortable in bars and those type of environments, much more so now then I ever was.
I didn't read the whole thread which is why I didn't pick at you Orayn. I was wondering why the thread got bumped is all.
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Teasing is just a form of play and it never looks good on paper but done right it's normal and fun in person. It doesn't need explaining past the basic gist. When it's forced it comes off really bad. When it's natural and you get along with people it happens. If you don't like the way you feel, or where you hang out, or the way you feel where you hang out, fix that. If you don't have friends, fix that. If you're wildly out of shape or looks, fix that.
A few of my friends kept doing this PUA shit and wasted time and money. Wanna know what the problem was? They hated clubs, they hated getting drunk, they hated lines, they hated trying to impress people. They stopped going. They started doing other stuff, and they got girlfriends.
So the moral of the story is, people can tell when you hate something or aren't comfortable. Everyone stays away from awkward people. A guy who is not comfortable in clubs, ends up on the wrong side of the pecking order. And everyone know it except for the guy trying to fool himself. This is how to teach PUA in a nutshell. Quick, someone pay me $1000.
EDIT: To your response ken. Well if you are you should soon be getting more attention from women not only in other places but at these bars, and your friends aren't or weren't even better than you, they're just more comfortable in those environments and their own skin whereas you weren't. Plus your looks are now working for you rather than against you.
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Teasing is just a form of play and it never looks good on paper but done right it's normal and fun in person. It doesn't need explaining past the basic gist. When it's forced it comes off really bad. When it's natural and you get along with people it happens. If you don't like the way you feel, or where you hang out, or the way you feel where you hang out, fix that. If you don't have friends, fix that. If you're wildly out of shape or looks, fix that.
A few of my friends kept doing this PUA shit and wasted time and money. Wanna know what the problem was? They hated clubs, they hated getting drunk, they hated lines, they hated trying to impress people. They stopped going. They started doing other stuff, and they got girlfriends.
So the moral of the story is, people can tell when you hate something or aren't comfortable. Everyone stays away from awkward people. A guy who is not comfortable in clubs, ends up on the wrong side of the pecking order. And everyone know it except for the guy trying to fool himself. This is how to teach PUA in a nutshell. Quick, someone pay me $1000.
EDIT: To your response ken. Well if you are you should soon be getting more attention from women not only in other places but at these bars, and your friends aren't or weren't even better than you, they're just more comfortable in those environments and their own skin whereas you weren't. Plus your looks are now working for you rather than against you.
This makes...no sense at all. You lost weight and looked better and girls started to be more interested in you. You were socially awkward because you were being expected to apply social skills you had never developed, and then you developed them. How does this have anything, at all, to do with alphas or betas? You weren't more successful because you changed your outlook, you were more successful because you changed your waistline.
Similarly, I don't think anybody would argue that confidence is attractive and important in developing relationships. But to go from that to some sort of alpha/beta theory is just absurd. It would be dignifying it to call it evolutionary psychology!
Ken Masters
Banned
It has everything to do with alpha and betas. Let me ask you a question, do think alphas and betas are equally attractive to the opposite sex?
I don't think alphas and betas exist.
Devolution
Member
What if my beta is another girl's alpha? What then Ken, what then?
It's a ladder theory moebius strip!
Ken Masters
Banned
There will be exceptions to everything. But I'm starting to see your brain can't grasp any matter that isn't a simple black or white issue
And go ahead and elaborate what "my beta" means
CrudeDiatribe
Member
Devolution
Member
Alpha and beta is black and white. Oh the irony of insulting my intelligence on this one.
Ken Masters
Banned
I never said it was a black or white issue, there will always be a grey area
But obviously fundamental reading comprehension doesn't seem to be one of your strengths. So unless you plan on elevating your IQ I'm not going to waste my time arguing with someone like you
I'd actually love to see you give a clear description of what the characteristics of an alpha and/or beta are, in your view.
She's got a point here Ken. Its what people are comfortable with.
So for example, if you hate the way you look and you see women as unattainable and your friends and some girls are having fun you have no shot. But if you're the weird guy and there's a weird girl there, and by weird I mean not so much weird but aren't exactly fond of those places and you have different interests but you somehow find each other at the bar, then that whole pecking order goes out the window and whatever you imagine alpha and beta to be doesn't exist. At that point its 2 people who see eye to eye and a fun little exchange occurs. No "alpha" at the bar is going to get the weird girl because that's not what she's into.
Like I said, be and do what you like. If a person feels beta, maybe they should do something that makes them feel alpha. God, using those words is so gross. What a shitty community.
Devolution
Member
Yes keep insulting my intelligence when it's you who is grossly oversimplifying men as alphas or betas. Clearly that's not painting in black and white. My arguing that you actually distill what makes an alpha distinct from a beta from different perspectives is too much to handle I guess. Best to make with the insults if you can't bother to parse the points I'm making.
WyndhamPrice
Member
Guys don't worry about it he's just hardcore negging Devo to show her how alpha he is
To me that's like saying you shouldn't try to learn to play the piano because there are prodigies out there that could instinctually play better than you ever could. Maybe you'll never be one of the best and brightest, but I don't see what you have to lose by emulating the best and brightest.
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