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Sega Saturn Appreciation and Emulation Thread
- Thread starter Seik
- Start date
davidwhangchoi
Member
i want a Saturn!!! aaah!!!!! one day... when i get some extra funds...You'll find yourself needing so much more than that.
Do it.
i think pc engine might be 1st before saturn, i just need to find the right timing.
Those cases are concealing spine cards right? Right??
More Saturn games!!!
Laevateinn
Member
I can't get worked up over spine cards. I always make sure to slip them inside the case and try to get them but if it doesn't have it and the price is right no big deal.
Honestly I wish I could ignore spines/reg but I just can't. I started collecting for the Saturn back when the prices weren't out of this world and when I did buy back then I made sure complete meant complete.
Now because my collection is all complete, continuing that trend has been extremely costly and my having everything uniform is important to me ...
Now because my collection is all complete, continuing that trend has been extremely costly and my having everything uniform is important to me ...
IrishNinja
Member
skrong +1
Shin Johnpv
Member
Yeah same here. I don't think I've ever cared about them besides "ohh cool, into case you go." Not really sure I get the love for them.
It's cool that you're ok with not having CIB games, collecting CIB is not for everyone.
(I'm kidding, it's a piece of flimsy cardboard I can't even read)
Laevateinn
Member
The benefit of a spine card in my mind is that if they were careful enough to keep that then they probably took better care of it in general. Still, if I can find a copy of Radiant Silvergun or some other exceedingly expensive Saturn title for a bit less because it doesn't have it, I'd be more than happy to go without.
Learn katakana, yo.
Learn katakana, yo.
I'd never ask - or even expect - for a proper store to provide a false invoice. That's why, when I buy from a store, I always do it within the EU. That said, when it's clearly a person like me selling stuff overseas, I'm never afraid to ask. I tend to trust someone's feedback, and I know I'm not a fraudolent ass, so I'm still convinced that when both parts do their job honestly, then there's no problem.
Once again, I totally understand the sentiment, and I met quite a few weirdos on eBay myself.
Still, that eBay Global shipping system is a joke, at least from a European buyer's perspective. I mean, I can get it, I've read they did it to discourage 'export', and it worked like a charm. It pretty much killed US eBay, for me. And - as a collector - that keeps saddening me every day.
Come at me, brother.
I'm at a stage where a good 25% of my current shopping is actually made of re-purchases, in order to fully complete items I've got back then, when 'complete' basically meant 'with spine card'. Luckily, as you said, those were times were it was easier to get complete sets without even looking for it specifically, but still... I'm waiting for a package from Japan which includes one game and... A bunch of papers that cost me more than the game itself.
eXistor
Member
I like it when the spine cards are there, but yeah, I don't actually care about them.
There's a a bunch of cheap(ish) great games out there, but man Saturn collecting is dangerously addicting. As soon as I get some games in, I'm already scoping out the next one.
There's a a bunch of cheap(ish) great games out there, but man Saturn collecting is dangerously addicting. As soon as I get some games in, I'm already scoping out the next one.
I've only just started this week, and there's only a handful of Saturn games I really want, but you're absolutely right and what you said sums up exactly how it is.
Edit: Added more Sega Saturn Magazine scans on the previous page.
sixteen-bit
Member
get Salamander on playstation
Around 2002 or 2003 I remember having a CD-R of the PlayStation version of Salamander Deluxe. I think I only played it once for about 5 minutes and eventually it got thrown out when i moved, along with a few other not-legit copies of other games. No, I don't do that anymore. I long since reformed
Feels good having the legit Saturn version.
eXistor
Member
While I agree, I don't really have much of a problem paying a bit more than full-price for a (rare or uncommon) game I really want. I remember the days when certain games were ridicuously priced such as Phantasy Star IV, Might & Magic on Megadrive or Conker's Bad Fur Day etc. The €200+ price range is where I reach my limit. I mean who's realistically buying these €500+ games? No game is worth that and I bet they just keep them in a safe until they're worth even more and resell them. I can see making an exception for that one game you need to complete a collection, but then, collectors are something else altogether.
Or, you know, you treat it like everything else in life. If there's something I want and can't afford, I just don't do it or look for a similar experience I can afford. Plenty of games I can't justify buying, I just don't play them.
I think that's going way too far to needlessly limit your own enjoyment, but hey, I won't judge. I dig great game collections especially for more obscure consoles.
But personally flashcarts and backups have kinda revitalized my gaming enthusiasm in the last few years, when I was starting to feel really down that physical copies were creeping to a level I wasn't prepared to pay anymore. I have no regrets.
But personally flashcarts and backups have kinda revitalized my gaming enthusiasm in the last few years, when I was starting to feel really down that physical copies were creeping to a level I wasn't prepared to pay anymore. I have no regrets.
Not trying to start any philosophical debate. Just sharing a different point of view.
Pretty shaky position. Farmers don't make anything off the produce I buy from the super market either, they already got theirs. Must be ok for me to just take what I want when I'm there then?
Basically your legal, moral or philosophical stance is based on greed. You want it, and you don't perceive it harming anyone. You do you, but not everyone is going to accept the same justifications you do. I'm not punishing myself at all.
Laevateinn
Member
I won't get upset about people pirating expensive, old games based on where they are at in life or rarity.
If it's a game that only a few thousand copies exist (or less) then asking someone to buy a copy is impractical and risks having it disappear into obscurity.
If it's a game that's really expensive and you can't afford it, then please pirate it. However, if you can afford to drop a few hundred a month on games and want to pirate something because that gives you a chance to buy other things then please just wait until you feel like it's good to buy it.
Asking people to buy these old, rare, expensive games is just driving prices up for everyone. Retro gaming should be a platform for enjoyment not retirement.
If it's a game that only a few thousand copies exist (or less) then asking someone to buy a copy is impractical and risks having it disappear into obscurity.
If it's a game that's really expensive and you can't afford it, then please pirate it. However, if you can afford to drop a few hundred a month on games and want to pirate something because that gives you a chance to buy other things then please just wait until you feel like it's good to buy it.
Asking people to buy these old, rare, expensive games is just driving prices up for everyone. Retro gaming should be a platform for enjoyment not retirement.
charlequin
Banned
Everyone do please remember that while there's a pretty clear and reasonable case for downloading super-rare games you can't legitimately buy anywhere, we aren't in favor of software piracy here. I don't think this conversation crosses any lines or anything but please everyone keep that in mind.
Don't turn this into an argument about industry-style incoherent metaphors for piracy, please. These are not analogous situations and nothing convinces people to ignore all anti-piracy messages like these kind of tortured comparisons.
alf717
Member
no problems with pirating here just don't sell it to me as genuine copies.
BTW
I just fired up my action replay 4m plus cart and the last time I used it I'm certain was more than 8 years ago but notice a lot of this stuff there... Should I delete that crap ?
Ran into the same issue years back. I want to say it was because of using a model 2 Saturn for years and then trying to copy them to a model 1 that caused it for me but it is probably some sort of corruption. I just deleted all the junk data. As I recall even the readable data still didn't work correctly when I transfered the saved files to another Saturn.
I don't personally see the issue with people playing ROMs of older, discontinued titles. Most of the people coming into the Saturn scene now never stood a chance at owning any of this stuff at the time of release, let alone now at a reasonable price. It's also not as if pirating a 20 year old game on a long dead platform is taking a sale away from the rights holder. If you have money to spend on games, put it toward something new and support the developer or publisher, not the secondary market.
This. 100%. I love owning CIB copies of old stuff, and am willing to buy it (personally) but at the end of the day, I'm not here to inflate the "value" of your copy of Panzer Dragoon Saga...
I bought a Saturn for my birthday and the package arrived today. So far the games I have are
AMOK
Fighting Vipers
Ghen War
Gungriffon
Road Rash (which I can't really play yet because the B button on the fugly Mad Catz controller that came with the system doesn't work and the game doesn't offer control remapping. I love that no matter the era or console, Mad Catz sucking is an universal constant.)
Solar Eclipse (why does no one talk about how brilliant this game is)
Virtua Fighter 2
Gungriffon doesn't get enough love.
AMOK
Fighting Vipers
Ghen War
Gungriffon
Road Rash (which I can't really play yet because the B button on the fugly Mad Catz controller that came with the system doesn't work and the game doesn't offer control remapping. I love that no matter the era or console, Mad Catz sucking is an universal constant.)
Solar Eclipse (why does no one talk about how brilliant this game is)
Virtua Fighter 2
Gungriffon doesn't get enough love.
I need to rewatch Austin Powers!
Very nice games to get into for the system, hope your experience with this system is great as it has a great library.
davidwhangchoi
Member
i need to learn where to look. i guess when i a get a system i'll ask on here.
i never saw it. is that JYP? i haven't looked at imports yet. (the ps2 library so humongous)
IrishNinja
Member
you jest but ive seen bounties for punisher tattoos & the like....strangely though, no gunstar heroes fruit roll ups (yet)
hush
agreed - shame rhea's not so ideal yet, but i'm all for system modding
can't cosign this hard enough
you are if you're going around life with misshapen slippery slope analogies like that
you literally can't throw $ at original devs for much of this saturn stuff. mind you, i own originals but still bought some of the ones that went to XBLA last gen just to show support, but please believe that buying something second hand (reseller or not) does not put you morally superior to anyone. honestly, if you didn't support it in its time on the shelves, it doesn't really matter until saturn hits some kind of virtual console.
foobarry81
Member
This is a technicality, but it actually does, because you don't violate the intellectual rights of the IP holder when you buy something second hand.
What you obviously mean here though is that either way you're not costing the devs any money because of lost sales*. That is entirely correct. Financially, whether you buy or pirate doesn't make any difference if the money can't make its way back to the devs in any way.
But morally (and that is largely a philosophical issue obviously), you're not on the same level when you show no intent of paying for a licensed product. If you buy a second hand copy, a license is transferred between buyers for money. A license that was once paid for, and thus doesn't violate intellectual rights.
You could for example download a pirated copy, look up the rights holders, and send them money in an envelop. Surely, you understand how that is different from just pirating? But again, this is more of a philosophical thing. It is still important if you're dragging in morals however.
* if you don't count potential future sales
If you like Fighting Vipers and Virtua Fighter 2 you should get the crossover, Fighters Megamix.
I know it would probably never happen but I'd love it if we could just buy disc images and roms direct from the publishers. I could do what I wanted with them and feel good morally that I legally own them. I bought the PC Mega Drive and NeoGeo collections on Steam just because I saw them as essentially legal rom packs that I could use with a better emulator then the ones they came packaged with.
Look, it isn't my intention to be inflammatory and I could have probably conveyed things better, but people keep bringing up compensating original devs, which is part of what I was responding to. Everything I buy at retail was produced and created by someone, games included. The ownership transfers to each buyer from store to customer to secondary market. Even in the case of eula for software, if I buy that license on a physical format it's mine and I can resell it. I'm not concerned over the compensation of the person who made my coat, tv, pizza, bd movie, music cd, book or whatever. They were already compensated.
There are markets that revolve around the sale of used merchandise. You may not like them (though that would be somewhat at odds with a lot of positive talk towards small retail game shops), but they are legal, legitimate owners of the software and are avenues to purchase. There are very few saturn games that you absolutely can not find to buy. So this always comes back to a discussion about cost and what people find reasonable. I'm not going to debate that. I personally don't get to determine what something is worth, supply and demand do that.
I will say that in my opinion, inability to pay for a luxury item, is a poor justification for taking it, which was my initial comment.
I couldn't agree more. The NeoGeo humble bundle was great and I love that you can buy a ton of sega genesis games through steam. It's hard to not see the benefits and I wish there was more of that myself.
IrishNinja
Member
we can debate morality all day, but if you're conflating it with loose legal terms on licenses/EULAs I have no idea.why you'd think the latter affects the former.
law is not a barometer for ethics, for reasons I would hope are obvious. an inflated eBay purchase does not equate greater moral character than someone emulating.
vaporware doesn't require justification, is what you're missing here. implying people that choose not to further inflate a reseller market are poor and/or acting immorally is a likewise troubling stance.
also I always get a kick out of folks treating price gouging as simple supply & demand here, as though shill bidding, artificial scarcity & broken benchmarks for "value" aren't playing a huge part in this ongoing bubble.
You are taking offense where none is intended. If I'm implying anything, I guess I'm implying that I'm poor? I would like to have aero fighters on snes, but I can't or won't pay the going rate, so I don't have it. Instead, I play what I can buy. For similar reasons, I also don't drive a sports car. I'm not lauding any huge collection. I live within my means and that means going without at times.
FYI, Saturn games aren't vaporware and retro prices aren't where they are based on a nefarious plan of resellers. If nobody pays, then it doesn't matter what someone charges. I don't like it either.
foobarry81
Member
Legislation is based on ethics though. If intellectual rights owners are granted certain rights by legislators, that means that the latter are convinced that it is ethically the right thing to do to grant them those. Now ethics are a volatile thing that may or may not change over time, and if you're going to argue that legislation doesn't always follow ethics closely, that would certainly be true. There is only a loose connection between both. But surely you can see that in this particular case legislators granted intellectual rights holders the sole right to commercialize their product to protect them from theft? And theft is morally always wrong, legally and morally. E.g. stealing from an atrocious person doesn't mean you're morally in the clear. It's still stealing. Even if you could argue that stealing is for the greater good in some cases, like in a Robin Hood scenario, I don't see how that would apply to emulating video games.
Now, I agree with your stance that the atrocious price gauging for retro games is a factor that is key in this whole debate. I would say it clouds people's judgment. When you see those prices, that aren't affordable to many a gamer, it's easier to mentally justify not paying for a game at all. That doesn't make it morally right or on the same page as buying a used copy though.
>> "an inflated eBay purchase does not equate greater moral character than someone emulating."
Well, it actually does. It probably also says something else about the buyer, but that's beside the point. Again: there is an intent of respecting the intellectual rights of the rights holder. When you emulate, you deliberately choose not to respect that right. That is legally shaky on the one hand and morally plain wrong on the other hand. Like I said earlier: if you really wanted, you could look up the rights holder of the game you want to play, download the game and send them a fair (<> crazy eBay price) amount of money for a license for personal use. You wouldn't have to pay the price of the inflated eBay purchase, and at the same time you'd respect the right of the rights holder. Morally, that's a superior situation to not respecting the rights holder's right at all. Similarly, if you overpay on eBay, you show your intent of respecting the rights holder's right.
Now, I get that in many cases the rights holder has either not the means (because they are not represented in a certain region etc) or no intention of ever using their intellectual right. So it may seem that it's ok to pirate. But let me draw an analogy that I hope you will see is very similar. Plenty of people do personal stuff on the job. E.g. make photo copies for personal use at the office. The chance of that ever getting penalized by the employer is probably very low, if only because nobody's checking and many employers probably don't care. There are probably companies too were doing that would get you fired, but generally it's sort of accepted behaviour. People typically rationalize that it's ok to do so, because "I'm not getting paid enough away." or "The company can afford it." etc... From a moral point of view though, such behaviour is clearly wrong, because you're taking stuff that isn't really yours to take.
Now, making photocopies for personal use is like emulating. On the surface you're not harming anyone, so it's easy to rationalize that it's just fine to do. Buying a used game however is more like having added to your employment contract that you are allowed to make photocopies for personal use. In both cases you're likely legally in the clear, because you're not going to get fired either way. But I hope you will agree there's a difference morally, between doing something when all of the players are in the know of you doing it (that you are licensed to act in a certain way), or doing it more secretively in stead because deep down you know it's not right.
Damn, so you wouldn't download a car then.
Why is that relevant? To answer you though, no I wouldn't, even if I could. Just like I won't download a game that I haven't bought. Would you download a car if you could?
Lol it's not relevant. It's just a throwback to those old anti-piracy adverts.
Legislation tends to trail behind ethics though. I would say copyright laws are outdated in regards to the transfer of private to public domain of software printed for proprietary hardware. While it's easy to keep a book in the market, manufacture being only dependent on people being able to read, software age as quickly as their proprietary hardware. Once a console is deemed outdated, no more software will be reprinted for it, no matter the demand: publishers just move on to the next hardware.
In any case, these discussions never go anywhere. They just go in circle with one person saying "but ethics" while the other replies "but the law" etc.
edit: Oh, and my personal stance on buying used vs copying is: I tend not to buy if the used price is over the initial new price. As soon as the seller makes a personal profit off his old acquisition due to scarcity, I'm usually out.
Laevateinn
Member
Hey guys. Final Fantasy 7 is super overrated. It's too bad that we didn't get a rad high budget Phantasy Star title for the Saturn.
I like the way you think, but now you've made me sad. We're talking about a follow-up to 4 right?
You're right, my apologies for assisting in the derailment. I'm stepping away from it and hope things go back to talking about the games, not the methods.
Laevateinn
Member
Of course
IrishNinja
Member
these are not "similar reasons" in the slightest, though. your arguments range from one not being "entitled" to something without supporting a reseller industry, to comparisons to physical goods currently on the marker.
borrowing a game, buying a boot, emulating or buying used: all do the same amount of moral good, and provide the same amount of compensation to the creators.
if they've existed literally for decades only on a long-dead system, they're vaporware. and the Retro bubble isn't where it is simply because of supply & demand. I don't like that either.
this is my argument, yes - in any discussion where law is treated as inherently a gauge for ethics/morality. historically speaking, it's a very troubled perspective
at the risk of further ballooning this: public domain & IP law ate big enough topics, but ill say that if the rings to a work dead since the early Clinton era (and, in many cases, legally murky as to who owns them at all), then the use of a digital copy creates zero harm and does not strike me as theft.
selling repros, not supporting re-releases etc, there's more an argument I'd say.
I'll bite: what does it say? because from here it seems to say "I threw a few hundred dollars are something & wish to perceive it as a moral good", when in truth a virtual console/etc purchase would've perhaps fit the bill but can't be placed on a shelf
in a capitalist society, your intent cannot be eaten nor traded. the end result is, at best, a somewhat sanctimonious feeling.
see this is something I'd agree with, and said as much before: stumpkapow once.pointed out that (pre GOG release, which was cool to see) there was no known way to play I have no mouth & I must scream in a "right" way, and argued that no harm would be done simply emulating. I personally would love a sort of tip jar for classic creators - I was just enjoying Master of Darkness (SMS) last night and did no.one but my shelf any good by picking that up recently. if I could drop a fiver in the direction of folks involved in it's creation, I'd be all over such an option.
I likewise can't really speak to your last analogy as I don't think it fits here either: stealing company property is not analogous to, say, downloading an old blues album which hasn't been commercially available for half a century. if someone paid thousands at an auction for a rare vinyl pressing, that's cool for them but no moral good or harm was accomplished by either effort.