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[Ninja Scooter]

Good luck working on generic games.

as opposed to sterile ass Mario Kart?

 

[Shiggy]

The seemingly endless cycle of senior staff leaving Retro is a bit concerning when taken as face value, but until Retro's product quality drops I dont think it warrants too much concern. Many were convinced the mass exodus pre-DKCR was a sign of the end, but DKCR's quality is right up there with the best of what Nintendo has offered this generation.

Still, its always sad to see important staff go, and I hope Nintendo manage to replace him with someone of equal talent.

As said, the trouble at NST showed what happens if NCL mandates everything.

 

[CoffeeJanitor]

EDIT: Despite the talent at the company, I seriously question the status of Armature. The company has flip flopped partnerships and direction for far too long now. I'm sure they're working on something, but I'm not going to bet on it being anything too significant.

Same here. I've checked their website a few times over the past year and it doesn't seem like they've even begun to do anything. I hope they get their stuff together at some point.

 

[Kurtofan]

as opposed to sterile ass Mario Kart?

Read the thread, they're lending assets for levels.

 

[AceBandage]

as opposed to sterile ass Mario Kart?

Derp.
They aren't making Mario Kart, simply lending some DKCR assets to the NK team.

 

[apana]

I think the best use of Retro right now would be to make that "New Legend of Zelda" game everyone is asking for.

 

[Shikamaru Ninja]

There is no secret here unfortunately. The Mario team is stuck making Mario games. The Zelda team is stuck making Zelda games. The Animal Crossing team is stuck making Animal Crossing games.

NST was stuck making Mario vs Donkey Kong games. Retro was stuck making Primes and now likely Donkey Kong Country.

Anytime you get a high-profile original game from Nintendo. Or even a resurrected intellectual property. It is an event.

 

[inky]

At first I was "Damnit Nintendo should let them make a new IP". Then I read they just want to make yet another bro game and smh.

Where did you read this?

 

[shadyspace]

Retro was garbage without Nintendo and they'd be garbage without Nintendo, just like Rare.

 

[Shiggy]

There is no secret here unfortunately. The Mario team is stuck making Mario games. The Zelda team is stuck making Zelda games. The Animal Crossing team is stuck making Animal Crossing games.

NST was stuck making Mario vs Donkey Kong games. Retro was stuck making Primes and now likely Donkey Kong Country.

Anytime you get a high-profile original game from Nintendo. Or even a resurrected intellectual property. It is an event.

NST's problem was Wii Crush, not Mario vs DK. And didn't you once say that Aonuma and his team were working on a cooking game?

 

[TheUnknownForce]

As said, the trouble at NST showed what happens if NCL mandates everything.

The Wii "casual" focus of the company absolutely destroyed NST. I mean, the Mario vs. Donkey Kong series is great and all, but NST needs to be rebuilt if it is anything more than a MvDK house.

Nintendo needs to sit down and refocus its views if it wants to get more developer acclaim.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

I think the best use of Retro right now would be to make that "New Legend of Zelda" game everyone is asking for.

No.

 

[EatChildren]

As said, the trouble at NST showed what happens if NCL mandates everything.

Yes, and this is the concern, but its one hard to judge for Retro while the studio continues to push out high profile titles. NCL's meddling is no doubt a serious issue, but the effect wont be seen until Retro sees a similar crash to NST.

 

[CoffeeJanitor]

Nintendo need to appreciate the fact that Retro are one of the most talented, creative and intuitive game development studios that they have under their wing, and need build on that by allowing them more creative freedom and input. If Nintendo want to succeed with this whole WiiU thing, they have to allow developers like Retro proceed with some of their ideas and concepts, because it will be them that takes Nintendo's next console to the hard-core audience.
Losing Retro would be a huge loss to Nintendo, both from a physical and idealogical perspective. Retro are Nintendo's last connection to the west in terms of mature, well-produced titles, such as the Metroid Prime series.
In fact, Retro are probably more valuable to nintendo of Japan than they realise.

None of this points toward Nintendo losing Retro. They have lost senior staff after almost every release, and yet the quality of their titles has yet to be affected. Nintendo is probably hiring just as much talent as is leaving.

Also, I must point again to the development process of Metroid Prime (and the projects that preceded it): if not for Nintendo's constant intervention and influence the title as we know it would have never been released.

 

[Jin34]

Where did you read this?

The OP:

I've heard of several Retro Studios employees that they were not very happy to be put on the DKC game, they wanted to take the direction many other Western studios pursued

Tired of doing the same thing so they want to do the same thing everyone else is doing. Is that what passes for creativity in this business?

 

[apana]

No.

Why not? At least this way they wouldn't have to make another Donkey Kong but could still be useful to the company.

 

[Derrick01]

Where did you read this?

Duh. He's moving to a western company, therefore working on bro games!

I'm glad he did though. We can never have enough talented people working on something they actually want to do.

 

[SykoTech]

Where did you read this?

The OP states that several new IPs aimed at mature audience were rejected. That instantly means generic dudebro games to certain people.

 

[Shikamaru Ninja]

NST's problem was Wii Crush, not Mario vs DK. And didn't you once say that Aonuma and his team were working on a cooking game?

Hideki Konno and his team were working on a cooking game. Never left the prototype stage I gather.

Aonuma and the Spirit Tracks team may be working on Rolling Western. And that may be Nintendo's first big e-shop game.

 

[Shiggy]

Tired of doing the same thing so they want to do the same thing everyone else is doing. Is that what passes for creativity in this business?

Large 3D games can be done in very different ways.

This could be read on the CV of one single employee:

In the downtime between projects, I also proposed a number of new game concepts, including 3 strategy game concepts for the Nintendo DS after Metroid Prime 2 shipped (two of which I also prototyped in some form), and proposed 6 new product concepts in various genres for Wii and Nintendo DS after Metroid Prime 3 shipped. Also proposed, designed, and prototyped a new IP based around an entirely novel set of gameplay mechanics using a modified version of the Metroid Prime 3 engine in January 2008.

He left when they started DKCR.

 

[Jin34]

The OP states that several new IPs aimed at mature audience were rejected. That instantly means generic dudebro games to certain people.

What does "the direction that other Western devs pursue" mean then? Even the rpgs are bro-ed up shooters now.

 

[subversus]

The OP states that several new IPs aimed at mature audience were rejected.

you know like Flower for example

 

[Jin34]

you know like Flower for example

Riiiight that's what people in this industry mean when saying mature.

 

[inky]

The OP:

Tired of doing the same thing so they want to do the same thing everyone else is doing. Is that what passes for creativity in this business?

Well, to be fair we don't know what proposals were rejected. Western-like games could mean a great variety of things and I am sure Nintendo would benefit greatly of having some new "mature" IPs under their belts in the west (Not that they'd be too fond of the idea.)
Uncharted for example is a western "bro" game, but I'm sure more people would welcome games of that quality. Batman AA is another. Assassin's Creed, etc.
(I don't particularly like Uncharted or shooters, it was just an example, but I guess it kinda proves your point... ?).

 

[[Nintex]]

If Nintendo was smart they would've given guys like these a bag of cash creative freedom and an office to form his own second western development group. But I guess your first name has to be Sakurai to secure that from Nintendo.

 

[Kurtofan]

People who aren't happy making DKC can leave, these people are of no consequence.

 

[CoffeeJanitor]

There is no secret here unfortunately. The Mario team is stuck making Mario games. The Zelda team is stuck making Zelda games. The Animal Crossing team is stuck making Animal Crossing games.

NST was stuck making Mario vs Donkey Kong games. Retro was stuck making Primes and now likely Donkey Kong Country.

Anytime you get a high-profile original game from Nintendo. Or even a resurrected intellectual property. It is an event.

Nintendo really needs to shuffle its teams, even if they're making the same series. The Zelda team should take a crack at Mario, the Mario team at Zelda, etc.

But mostly I just think Aonuma's team needs to get on something else.

I recall reading about a list of 700 issues within Nintendo made by Iwata and others a year or two ago. Do you know anything about this list? I remember one of the issues being a lack of creative freedom because of development resources being put toward existing franchises/sequels etc

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Why not? At least this way they wouldn't have to make another Donkey Kong but could still be useful to the company.

Making new IP would be far more useful to Nintendo's portfolio. Zelda isn't that big of a franchise, spinoff with extremely limited upside (Especially for selling systems) that could potentially cause franchise fatigue doesn't seem like the best use of Retro.

If Nintendo was smart they would've given guys like these a bag of cash creative freedom and an office to form his own second western development group. But I guess your first name has to be Sakurai to secure that from Nintendo.

To be fair, Sakurai has been there a good bit longer.

 

[Lunar15]

I'd like to know what the source for this is. Not that I don't believe the OP, I just like having the source.

 

[[Nintex]]

Nintendo really needs to shuffle its teams, even if they're making the same series. The Zelda team should take a crack at Mario, the Mario team at Zelda, etc.

But mostly I just think Aonuma's team needs to get on something else.

I recall reading about a list of 700 issues within Nintendo made by Iwata and others a year or two ago. Do you know anything about this list? I remember one of the issues being a lack of creative freedom because of development resources being put toward existing franchises/sequels etc

This came up in one of the Iwata's Asks, Koizumi said like: "Let me do the next Zelda you can do Mario!" and Aonuma said: "No".

I'd like to know what the source for this is. Not that I don't believe the OP, I just like having the source.

Shiggy could tell you the brand of their toilet paper, he knows it all man.

 

[JaxJag]

Nice choice.

id is the more talented studio that actually gets to make games they enjoy themselves.

 

[Jin34]

Maybe Shiggy can elaborate on the other western devs comment.

 

[Shiggy]

Maybe Shiggy can elaborate on the other western devs comment.

3D game with a similar scale as the Metroid Prime series. That's the direction their prototypes took.

 

[Madao]

not surprising the devs are sick of nintendo's properties. it seems like everyone outside japan is sick of them among dev circles.

i'd bet the proposals were rejected because they had no sales potential. how many games outside the casual lineup have actually become big from nintendo this gen? it seems the kind of games aimed at dudebro gamers only rise in consoles without the name nintendo on them.

 

[The Xtortionist]

Retro can make up for it by getting David Wise for DKCR2.

 

[wsippel]

But seriously. Western-based developers move around alot. New company start-ups that hire "senior developers" always have very lucrative packages.

Yep. And that door swings both ways.

 

[AceBandage]

not surprising the devs are sick of nintendo's properties. it seems like everyone outside japan is sick of them among dev circles.

i'd bet the proposals were rejected because they had no sales potential. how many games outside the casual lineup have actually become big from nintendo this gen? it seems the kind of games aimed at dudebro gamers only rise in consoles without the name nintendo on them.

Really, dude?

 

[[Nintex]]

Retro can make up for it by getting David Wise for DKCR2.

Nintendo could put that car to good use for once and drive around the UK to pick up some scattered Rare devs. Some are in the iOS business now but I'm sure they'll find at least 20 guys who'd be willing to work for them on cool new games. Given the state of the UK gaming industry it would be easy for Nintendo to hire a bunch of talented devs there anyway.

 

[Poyunch]

If Retro wants Zelda they can work on Star Tropics. They would be great with Star Tropics.

 

[CoffeeJanitor]

This came up in one of the Iwata's Asks, Koizumi said like: "Let me do the next Zelda you can do Mario!" and Aonuma said: "No".

I hope SS is either amazing or a complete flop. If it's amazing then my faith in Aonuma's creativity is restored, if it flops a new team can get on it.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

At first I was "Damnit Nintendo should let them make a new IP". Then I read they just want to make yet another bro game and smh.

I imagine any large publisher has to be pretty hard to work at in terms of creative freedom and getting new IPs off the ground. id probably offered them a chance to start up some smaller projects he'd been stewing on for a while, Nintendo probably offered more Donkey Kong. Similar to the Rare situation, it's hard to fault the publisher who can't responsibly walk away from a multi-million selling IP to throw millions at unproven stuff, but you can completely understand why a creative person would find that stifling.

Metroid Prime was a piece of junk until Miyamoto hand held them with daily updates and meetings. Technically MP is a piece of work but would hardly be the trilogy it is today without Nintendo Japan intervening and guiding Retro.

Also people move around in the industry although granted, Nintendo have let their partnerships slide.

Unless Nintendo of Japan sat down wrote half the game's code, give credit where credit is due. They are an amazing talented group of people, and I'm sure many of them will be successful at their various positions around the industry.

 

[Jin34]

3D game with a similar scale as the Metroid Prime series. That's the direction their prototypes took.

Hmm so likely 1st person but not shooter inclined, with open ended world. Hopefully not bro/muted colors stuff and more non-linear Mirror's Edge.

Spoiler

Now everyone will hate me for planting this idea in their heads.

 

[CoffeeJanitor]

not surprising the devs are sick of nintendo's properties. it seems like everyone outside japan is sick of them among dev circles.

i'd bet the proposals were rejected because they had no sales potential. how many games outside the casual lineup have actually become big from nintendo this gen? it seems the kind of games aimed at dudebro gamers only rise in consoles without the name nintendo on them.

Please define casual lineuo.

 

[Nirolak]

I decided to check who was still at Retro since Metroid Prime 1.

 

[wsippel]

None of this points toward Nintendo losing Retro. They have lost senior staff after almost every release, and yet the quality of their titles has yet to be affected. Nintendo is probably hiring just as much talent as is leaving.

Yep. In fact, they also hire senior staff from other developers, like Naughty Dog. Was probably sick of doing more and more Uncharted or something for the rest of his life. Didn't see a thread about that, though. It's only interesting if Nintendo loses.

 

[CoffeeJanitor]

I decided to check who was still at Retro since Metroid Prime 1.

 

[Instro]

I decided to check who was still at Retro since Metroid Prime 1.

http://www.abload.de/img/retrofinalb31l.png[IMG][/QUOTE]
How does that compare to other studios?

 

[A Link to the Past]

id software - Retro Studios - id software

EDIT: Also, I can't blame them for leaving. Retro Studios has been trying to make original titles, and to date, they've made three Metroid games, one Mario game, one Donkey Kong game, and nothing of their own creation.

 

[AlphaDragoon]

I understand wanting to do something different...but the way that sentence in the OP was phrased makes it seriously sound like they wanted to make some dudebro bullshit. If that's actually true...ugh.

 

[Cygnus X-1]

Good luck!