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Shin Megami Tensei 3: Nocturne is still incredible

randomkid

Member
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I just finished a replay of Shin Megami Tensei 3 for the first time in a decade, so I felt compelled to write a big long unstructured essay about it where I’m going to sound like an overwrought crazy person. That’s okay though. There’s just something about this game that really speaks to those of us who find our way in. When you sound like a hyperbolic cultist writing soaring prose to try to meet the game at its level, it’s not a unique reaction. We’ve all been spellbound in the same way, the game is designed to do it.

How is it designed to do this? Basically, in every conceivable way! The music and sound composition, the moment-to-moment battling, the environmental art and location choices, the progression systems for both the protagonist and demon fusions, the scope and method of storytelling, the density and depth of the mythological references, everything fits together like a symphony to inspire these feelings. Tension, immersion (lol), and utter absorption. Nocturne is a clinic in how to structure every aspect of your game around a unified vision (finding the strength to survive in a cruel and barren land) without hugely compromising ambition. That this level of design can be sustained over the course of 50 hours for the average playthrough and 70 for those of us determined to reach the lowest depths of the game’s enormous optional (!) Amala dungeon is insanely remarkable.

Some of the more adolescent-minded fans of the Shin Megami Tensei series and the broader Megaten franchise lionize this one in particular as being the most “dark” but that’s a kind of stupid and narrow way of looking at it. If you’re a cool person you don’t love Nocturne because it’s “dark” you love it because the game makes you feel like you’re hallucinating. SMT3 is unconcerned with providing detailed exposition and light-hearted character moments, but it’s a game that is overrun with “story” at every turn. And not just in the environmental, piece-it-together Souls series storytelling sense people love to talk about, there are actually a bunch more NPCs around straight up delivering dialogue for you than you’d think! Pair that up with the demon chatting, the compendium entries, the audiovisual cues and the gorgeously directed cutscenes, and the common complaint that SMT3 has no “story” just seems like nonsense to me.

The game isn’t necessarily just dour or unambiguously somber either. Megami Tensei’s roots are in the pulpy trash of 80s light novels, and you see this in some of the humorous demon-focused crassness, the bits of comedic negotiation dialogue, and the seeming mish-mash of myth as aesthetic influences. But the funny paradox of SMT3 is that it’s a game built on a punk-rock foundation of rebelling against what’s proper and mainstream (see any interview with the creators) that is also simultaneously downright austere by today’s standards. Grand and lonely and visionary in tone, careful, measured and meticulous in its design, without an ounce of bloat, nothing wasted or incoherent, it’s just so impressive on every level (I promise I’ll get more specific with my gushing soon).

There’s an attitude among some Megaten fans that Nocturne is the one that doesn’t fit in the series, that it’s too different from previous Shin Megami Tensei games, but I don’t think that’s right. To me there’s a very clear throughline, it’s just Nocturne’s antecedents aren’t necessarily found in its immediate numbered predecessor. When it comes to the main and numbered games in this series, you can very easily see the path from Megami Tensei 2 -> Shin Megami Tensei 2 -> Shin Megami Tensei 4, all of which begin years after the apocalypse has occurred and concern themselves with how society persists and political factions collide decades and even centuries into the aftermath. They are the three most readily described as “cyberpunk”, they’re chattier, they’re a bit more clichéd in their own ways (amnesiac gladiator and military academy recruit openings for SMT2 and SMT4 respectively), and their general sensibilities are similar.

SMT3’s lineage is, I feel, more directly traced from two other games. SMT1 and (hear me out!) Revelations: Persona. I think it’s easy to link these three games together for several reasons. In all three you begin in relative peace in a current day city, in all three the inciting incident is an occultist ritual, and interestingly in all three the hospital is your first dungeon, deliberately chosen for its uncanny familiarity to create an immediate sense of unease (and also the pretty obvious birth/death location symbolism). These are games centered around the immediacy of disaster and apocalypse, and take modern day locations that are meant to be familiar and subvert them to make them unnerving. Atmosphere is a word I see frequently used to praise all three games (yes there are at least 1 dozens of us, [dozens!] who like Persona 1) and the dream-like, surreal atmosphere in these three games can be strikingly similar.

So yeah, good lord, Nocturne’s atmosphere. This game is simply filled with astonishing imagery at every point. The art directors managed to make each scene feel somehow weighty and mesmerizing, with aesthetic choices made throughout that are just so thoughtful and cultured. Angels and demons look terrifying and awesome, in that they inspire terror and awe. Gods and goddesses appear benevolent, their facial expressions neutral and lacking in human emotion. Jack Frost remains the best mascot in videogames. There’s well-researched details in the animations and all aspects of appearance (see here for a bit on Baphomet’s posing). The vocal and sonic choices are perfect, like that unsettling blaring soundblast when the statue of Gozu-Tennoh speaks, as if a great and mighty terror is deigning to communicate across worlds.

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There are posts that dissect the spiral imagery of the vortex world that repeats over the course of the game. There are entire sites devoted to breaking down the wide range of inspirations for the game's transcendental demon design. Random tumblr people compare the cutscene direction to Ingmar Bergman films, and it’s interesting to see how the cutscenes are frequently in first person or otherwise hide the protagonist, which not only hearkens back to series roots (while saving budget $$$) but also conveys solitude and makes the scenes with multiple demons and figures appear that much more spectacular. On any given day you’ll find a tweet or two or three of people overwhelmed by the game’s aesthetic choices, its virtuoso game over sequence, or title sequence, or pretty much any sequence. It’s the purest expression of a world class artist’s singular vision and is the reason why all of us sound so annoying whining for Kazuma Kaneko to return from his flower field exile.

There’s also a very ingenious way SMT3 supports its themes and that is through the combat. Nocturne is a game about stealing turns. It’s the fundamental principle of the battling, it’s why everyone tells you to keep the skill Fog Breath, and it’s a carryover from the simpler system in SMT1 where the method of stealing turns was using charm bullets or casting Zio to paralyze the enemy before they even have a chance to act. The battle system has a famous Engrish name called “Press Turn,” which is distinct and not to be confused with the One More system from newer Persona games or the alignment based combat bonuses of Strange Journey.

In SMT3, any given press turn encounter depends upon the party composition choices you’ve made, not only the resistances and repels/drains you enter with (two very different things in terms of battle consequences!) but also the moment to moment decision-making of turn management, weighing how to strategically pass to maximize damage output over the course of the fight. Every battle is an opportunity to demonstrate your efficiency and mastery of the systems, and the goal of each encounter is to use foresight and preparation to demolish your foes before they have the chance to even act. Steal turns and survive in a barren land of death upon death, this is the elegance of Press Turn. You’ll hear endless discussion around this game’s difficulty, and encounters generally have teeth to them yeah, but there is a very principled fairness to the battling where combat swings do not occur as dramatically as they do in say, SMT4. SMT3 is balanced perfectly by virtue of its lack of save anywhere option, providing you with tension at all times but also most importantly the tools to mitigate disaster over the long term, which is a deeply deeply rewarding way to survive.

Press Turn’s UI really adds to this rewarding feeling. How terrifying is it when a boss casts Beast or Dragon Eye, and suddenly a string of new turn icons appear? How satisfying is it to see a row of flashing turns, knowing that you’ve fully exploited your enemy? The enemy composition really accentuates this as well, with encounters often designed to avoid easy spam of single elements or physical skills to mindlessly coast to victory. SMT3 doesn’t want you taking any shortcuts, if you want to take advantage of a given demon or magatama’s skillset, you need to pair your choices to mitigate the corresponding weakness, or the enemy’s AI will press their advantage in the exact way you would. It’s a really satisfying symmetry.

There are also other paths to battle that are just as viable. Exploiting weaknesses with a multipurpose magic build is another way to steal turns. Building battlers around skills that maximize critical hits is another way. And if you are terrified of the infamous one-shot deaths that people like to say are the franchise trademark? Equip null-death magatama in between level ups. Raise your luck. Resolve battles before enemies even have the chance to use the spell against you. Raise your speed so enemies don’t get the chance to go first. Get endure as soon as possible. The tools for success are all right there for you! Nocturne tasks you with growing strong enough in this world to ascend to creation, and it provides you with multiple paths to reach this goal.

So, about these multiple paths, let me talk to you a bit about SMT3’s famously unique alignment system. Other games are lauded for their ultimately fairly stupid morality systems but Nocturne breezily operates on a completely different level. Instead of RESCUE and HARVEST in dumb giant gothic font or literally color-coded paragon and renegade meters, in SMT3 you align yourself naturally through story progression with factions concerned with stillness, power, solitude, freedom, or rebellion. Instead of the grand binary moral choice being telegraphed through hideous-looking “Little Sisters” (god I hated that stupid name haha) there’s a rough analogue in the actually sympathetic but far more complex unsettling-looking Manikins, whose character motif is described by the creators as representing those who lose themselves to the strength of numbers. There’s unfortunately a tiny amount of material in the game to support extremely tedious “canon” discussion, but the game actually works best and most purely as an abstract, impressionistic vision of grand universal themes. Playing through any one of SMT3’s six endings makes the universe feel vast and overwhelming, and asks you to contend with a broader suite of philosophies than ‘good’ or ‘bad,’ and that’s ultimately what I think the developers were most interested in going for.

Something about the prose in Nocturne is also special in a way that is extremely difficult to accurately describe. Like everything else in this game it feels elegant and detached, gods and goddesses are appropriately otherworldly without sounding like haughty stereotypes, lower demons are funny and crass in a way that’s not so on-the-nose. Again it’s very difficult to pinpoint but something has been lost in the writing of the newer games, even a bit as small as how angels and demons in the game actually never name anything directly as God, but instead refer obliquely to a Lord, an Absolute, or a Great Will, Nocturne just gets all the little details right.

As I run out of steam from this braindump, I notice there’s still an essay’s worth of observations in so many other topics that deserve to be discussed. The Tokyo-focused but somehow universal theming of the game’s alignment principles and locale visuals. The insanely expansive but unfortunately compressed soundtrack (see over three hours of unreleased material alone here), where dungeon music regularly evolves to indicate progression, and battle and boss music quantity is generously varied both between and within song. The extremely rewarding fusion system can be plumbed to frankly insane depths, with a demon bestiary that is reasonable to 100%, and the lack of “use it or lose it” demon quality that hits other SMT series games contributing to a better feeling of progression and customization opportunities. The demon negotiation, which rewards your knowledge of mythological connections among pantheons with unique one-time only dialogue. The dungeons, the DUNGEONS. With the exception of an early set of sewers, an apparent shitty dungeon theme RPG tradition, each of these are little masterpieces of aesthetics and design, with their own thoughtfully introduced and iterated gimmick, planned wonderfully for both third and first person, often wrapping in and around themselves in spirals in that very Shin Megami Tensei-specific way.

Even if you think a game like Nocturne seems too dense or impenetrable or boring or random-encounter filled or whatever, it’s worth giving it a real shot for yourself to see if it manages to grab you. We’re no longer in those days in the late 2000s where the game cost exorbitant amounts of money to get, a digital version can be found on PS3 for $10 (with only rare emulation issues in certain dungeon sections), and the disc itself was reprinted and can be found brand new on Amazon if you have a PS2 or want to emulate on PCSX2, where the game looks even more breathtaking. Either way, find a way to treat yourself to an RPG where it is actually appropriate to throw around the term masterpiece. I didn’t really write any of this text no one’s going to read to make a persuasive case to anyone, but sometimes games will inspire you and it feels good to ramble about them, and playing this again helped me determine that this actually really is the best RPG ever made. Games like this one are nearly impossible to make nowadays, and SMT3 is something worth cherishing.

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redlemon

Member
I'd really like a re-relase of this or at least a emulated release on ps4. I played it as a teenager and liked the atmosphere but I'm confident I'd get more out of it now that I know how RPG's actually work.
 
Reminds me that I should buy the Shin Megami games the next time they are on sale on PSN.

Anything I should know, is there a difference between EU and US versions?
 

Aeana

Member
This is the closest a video game has ever come to being perfect to me. Thoroughly incredible in all ways.
 

Brandon F

Well congratulations! You got yourself caught!
Put off playing it on PS2 for a decade until it hit PSN and sunk 70 hours in. Even did all optional content(except the super boss).

Not going to add much other than it really is a wonderful game and very few other SMT titles have lived up since.
 
Nice write up. I adore this game and it was my first proper SMT. It's just such a wonderfully cohesive game and extremely memorable. The art style (especially the character design) and music created such a unique and compelling world. I think my only really hang up is the random skill inheritance during fusion. Would love to see a remastered version that let you choose like in the newest entries.
 

vvise

Member
I like this game a lot, played it last year. My only issue had to do with the save system. Dying usually meant you have to replay a large chunk of game play. While this adds tension it also makes some parts of the game tedious and frustrating. I remember clearing a maze dungeon, defeating the boss, and on my way to the next save area hitting a random encounter with a rider that wiped me. Lost like an hour of time. Rushing back through it just makes you under leveled.

It isn't always easy to get to a save point when you need to stop. Had to reserve the game for only when I had long periods of uninterrupted time.
 

HeeHo

Member
This is my favorite PS2 jRPG to replay for its gameplay. I would love a PS2 to PS4 release or even a remake of some sort.

What I like about this game in particular too, is that even if you're really digging the gameplay and you hit LVL 99, that isn't technically the cap and you can just keep going. The game feels rewarding when you do a string of like 3+ encounters and get loads of exp and money.
 

randomkid

Member
Nice write up. I adore this game and it was my first proper SMT. It's just such a wonderfully cohesive game and extremely memorable. The art style (especially the character design) and music created such a unique and compelling world. I think my only really hang up is the random skill inheritance during fusion. Would love to see a remastered version that let you choose like in the newest entries.

this is a really controversial opinion but I think semi-random skill inheritance is Good, Actually. Without any limits whatsoever, the newest entries really mess up the difficulty curve. Making really tough choices about what's REALLY worth keeping on your demons is fun! And for those who just can't stand to make tough decisions, you can grind by pressing X and O a lot.
 

Blobbers

Member
this is a really controversial opinion but I think semi-random skill inheritance is Good, Actually. Without any limits whatsoever, the newest entries really mess up the difficulty curve. Making really tough choices about what's REALLY worth keeping on your demons is fun! And for those who just can't stand to make tough decisions, you can grind by pressing X and O a lot.

The problem with auto-skill inheritance is some demons can't inherit certain skills for stupid arbitrary reasons, so you'll be mashing x o for minutes before giving up. I mean Lilim can't get Fog Breath? She has a mouth, it's right there. c'mon

But even with that, I prefer the "archaic" press turn and skill inheritance system of Nocturne to SMT4 and 4A
 
this is a really controversial opinion but I think semi-random skill inheritance is Good, Actually. Without any limits whatsoever, the newest entries really mess up the difficulty curve. Making really tough choices about what's REALLY worth keeping on your demons is fun! And for those who just can't stand to make tough decisions, you can grind by pressing X and O a lot.

It would be much better if you could not manipulate the outcome as easily as you could (hence why a QoL decision had to be made). It was half hearted in implementation. It should be semi-random but it should be consistent and unable to be manipulated as the game does currently. It's pretty much my only significant issue with Nocturne which is otherwise so confident in itself.
 

PK Gaming

Member
Holy shit, what an OP

Agree on most fronts

Some of the more adolescent-minded fans of the Shin Megami Tensei series and the broader Megaten franchise lionize this one in particular as being the most ”dark" but that's a kind of stupid and narrow way of looking at it. If you're a cool person you don't love Nocturne because it's ”dark" you love it because the game makes you feel like you're hallucinating. SMT3 is unconcerned with providing detailed exposition and light-hearted character moments, but it's a game that is overrun with ”story" at every turn. And not just in the environmental, piece-it-together Souls series storytelling sense people love to talk about, there are actually a bunch more NPCs around straight up delivering dialogue for you than you'd think! Pair that up with the demon chatting, the compendium entries, the audiovisual cues and the gorgeously directed cutscenes, and the common complaint that SMT3 has no ”story" just seems like nonsense to me.

Especially here, jesus this is too on point

Nocturne was truly special
 
I've not played a more "surreal" JRPG, honestly. Or one that pulls off so many elements off that come together into one cohesive whole so well. The way the presentation is spread to be minimalistic was a perfect way of telling its storyline, so often you see JRPGs with a big focus on very frequent, long and elaborate cutscenes, playing this game was so refreshing. It's pretty much the best JRPG I've ever played and the best game Atlus has ever made, which is saying something for me, love their games.

I honestly still don't think Hashino will ever top this, despite how great his games since then have been.
 

Jisgsaw

Member
Wholeheartly agreed.
HAving replayed it a couple years back, the only fault I could find (if you could call it that)
are the very barren and unapealing menus. That isn't that bad, but finding out hat a demon resists/is weak to in its page isn't very clear, especially when they have a lot of affinities.

Nice write up. I adore this game and it was my first proper SMT. It's just such a wonderfully cohesive game and extremely memorable. The art style (especially the character design) and music created such a unique and compelling world. I think my only really hang up is the random skill inheritance during fusion. Would love to see a remastered version that let you choose like in the newest entries.

Pretty sure that would destroy the (currently rather good) game balance.
 
The negotiations and fusion menus are a little outdated. The former strikingly so when you played later iterations first - even the updated Soul Hackers upped the writing and mechanics for negotiations a lot. In SMT3 you can't do much and there was that one phrase you'd hear over and over from all demons after a certain amount of time.


It's one of very few JRPGs where I don't mind buttrock for battles, but fuck that song in particular. Why is it completely changing its tone 20 seconds in, it always threw me off.
 
This game was Kaneko's and Okada's Magnum Opus

Kaneko still worked on the series for a while after this and DDS was also directed by Hashino whilst working with Kaneko. If anything, this was Okada's farewell to a series him and Kaneko helped build up, but it was Hashino who brought his vision to fruition for this game. He helped create the Press Turn system, a mainstay for the series for a long time afterwards, dude deserves mad props for his amazing work on this game. Yamai just brought even more amazing design to this game in the form of the Fiends and the Labyrinth of Amala. Not forgetting Shogo Isogai's brilliant design and writing as well. Frankly, it was the entire design team at Atlus just firing on all cylinders with this game.
 

The Wart

Member
SMT III is definitely a remarkable game. However, I have to disagree with you about the alignment system, which I think is ultimately not successful. The alignments are so vague and abstract that they end up totally disconnected from anything that's actually happening in the game world. It's all telling, no showing. Like, some of the alignments might as well have been Pythagorean numerology, or Phrenology, or some philosophy 101 student's rambling livejournal posts (which a few of the alignments effectively are); you could just swap out some text boxes and it wouldn't affect anything else in the game. To me, that's a big failure to integrate narrative and gameplay.

The exception to this is the true demon route, because the associated plotline is directly relevant to why the world of the game is the way it is.
 

Piotrek

Member
What a fantastic OP, one of the better things I have read recently.
To me the game is the pinnacle of the series. Although SMT maintains great quality overall, nothing comes close to Nocturne. It desperately needs a re-release for modern systems, but with everything left intact (additional savepoints would help though).
 

randomkid

Member
SMT III is definitely a remarkable game. However, I have to disagree with you about the alignment system, which I think is ultimately not successful. The alignments are so vague and abstract that they end up totally disconnected from anything that's actually happening in the game world. It's all telling, no showing. Like, some of the alignments might as well have been Pythagorean numerology, or Phrenology, or some philosophy 101 student's rambling livejournal posts (which a few of the alignments effectively are); you could just swap out some text boxes and it wouldn't affect anything else in the game. To me, that's a big failure to integrate narrative and gameplay.

The exception to this is the true demon route, because the associated plotline is directly relevant to why the world of the game is the way it is.

I thought it all integrated pretty well personally. The grand alignment speeches are definitely a little didactic when they happen yeah, but in terms of the varying reason events developing over the course of the game you've got
isolationist Isamu immersing himself in Amala, power-minded Chiaki fighting to the top of Mantra to lead a massacre, stillness-minded Shijima manipulating events throughout to achieve his vision.
Keeping things high-level and a little detached was definitely the right call, I really wouldn't have enjoyed the narrative more if everything had been written out at each step.
 

Danjin44

The nicest person on this forum
Nocturne is my all time favourite RPG. I honestly don't want remake. I just want remaster so I can play it on my PS4.
 

Ifrit

Member
Just finished this game a couple of months ago on my ps2, just amazing, it holds up extremelly well, the only downside I can't think of is the random battles, but:

a) 80 hours into the game and I never got enough of the amazing battle music, which there are several, and they are all great.
b) you can use items and abilities to reduce the frequency of them greatly

So basically, not that big of an issue.

Everything else from the graphics, artstyle, battle system, themes, to the difficuty, all top notch
 

Fou-Lu

Member
JRPGs are my favourite genre and I love Persona and Strange Journey but I have never actually finished Nocturne. I always get burnt out about 20 hours in because I have replayed those first 20 hours without getting further way too many times due to various reasons. I love what I have played of it though and the themes and atmosphere are right down my alley.
 

The Wart

Member
I thought it all integrated pretty well personally. The grand alignment speeches are definitely a little didactic when they happen yeah, but in terms of the varying reason events developing over the course of the game you've got
isolationist Isamu immersing himself in Amala, power-minded Chiaki fighting to the top of Mantra to lead a massacre, stillness-minded Shijima manipulating events throughout to achieve his vision.
Keeping things high-level and a little detached was definitely the right call, I really wouldn't have enjoyed the narrative more if everything had been written out at each step.

I did think the characters and ideas were interesting, but they also felt somewhat arbitrary and underdeveloped. In then end it's all just a handful of textboxes at the end of a couple dungeons that feel interchangeable with any other dungeon (except Amala), and then after the cutscenes you just go on to the next dungeon, just like you did before.

I realize the above may sound overly reductive, so I'll provide a counterexample. In SMT IV
you visit alternate worlds that show possible aftermaths of law or chaos winning; in other words, it shows the meaning of the alignment in terms of something that you experience in the game
. When in SMT III
Chiaki massacred the Mantra
, on the other hand, isn't something that has any meaningful consequences for the world of the game as you actually experience it.
 

HeeHo

Member
The game is undisputed in atmosphere as far as I'm concerned.

The art direction and environmental design is out of this world.

Ooh man, needing a remaster. That looks smoother and even more colorful than I remember. Are these emulator shots?
 
if people expressed disappointment regarding the 2 smt4 games, it was mostly because of this game (that's still so much better!) :) ...
 
It's a special game. I do think some aspects have aged a bit (the skill and fusion system in particular), but the game is just so unique, so well designed and innovative that it'll always be one I hold dearly.

I did think the characters and ideas were interesting, but they also felt somewhat arbitrary and underdeveloped. In then end it's all just a handful of textboxes at the end of a couple dungeons that feel interchangeable with any other dungeon (except Amala), and then after the cutscenes you just go on to the next dungeon, just like you did before.

I realize the above may sound overly reductive, so I'll provide a counterexample. In SMT IV
you visit alternate worlds that show possible aftermaths of law or chaos winning; in other words, it shows the meaning of the alignment in terms of something that you experience in the game
. When in SMT III
Chiaki massacred the Mantra
, on the other hand, isn't something that has any meaningful consequences for the world of the game as you actually experience it.
Yeah, I like the idea of the 'Reasons', and much prefer it to the really simple Law/Chaos dichotomy, but there was nothing dramatic about how they were executed, no weight in the way they were portrayed. I end up caring not even one bit about any reason and just going for TDE.
 

pablito

Member
I really need to beat it. I get through a bit of it and I usually get my fill and I quit. Not because I was dissatisfied. It's just that that game is a meal that I get satisfied from very early.

If I ever do beat it, I may end up feeling the same.
 
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