PhantomThief
Banned
No way, you just need a good party of demons. I didnt have much trouble with Matador or Dante
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Shin Megami Tensei 3: Nocturne is still incredible
- Thread starter randomkid
- Start date
No way, you just need a good party of demons. I didnt have much trouble with Matador or Dante
.Lunarwhale
Member
Matador's a really good tutorial boss if you're not used to buff/debuffing in JRPGs. The extreme nature of the fight informs that player that stat changes mid-battle matter a lot in this game, but it also shows how enemy AI reacts based on your actions. Debuff Matador's speed too hard, and he uses Red Capote to counter it.
I think it took me a day to figure it out - prior I had just brute-forced my way through situations like this in RPGs. Matador really forces you to experience how these skills alter the battle in Nocturne.
e: which reminds me of how much I loved strategizing around press turn... it was always worth experimenting with buffs to see if you could get the AI to waste a turn on Dekaja - only to later run into bosses who get pissed and give themselves more press turns if you try to cheese them like that. Part of what made the game so engaging from start to finish is that your playstyle had to keep evolving.
I think it took me a day to figure it out - prior I had just brute-forced my way through situations like this in RPGs. Matador really forces you to experience how these skills alter the battle in Nocturne.
e: which reminds me of how much I loved strategizing around press turn... it was always worth experimenting with buffs to see if you could get the AI to waste a turn on Dekaja - only to later run into bosses who get pissed and give themselves more press turns if you try to cheese them like that. Part of what made the game so engaging from start to finish is that your playstyle had to keep evolving.
ASilentProtagonist
Member
Definitely. The bosses in general for the most part are, fantastic. Very creative. Unfortunately, they've become less so as the series has gone on, and has just come down to maxing out damage before dying with a bit of luck.
charlequin
Banned
And in particular a boss that calls for you to assemble a specific party, which I know was a big shift in approach for me the first time.
Paltheos
Member
Yeah, I'm just quoting this line in particular because it's more in-line with my feelings on Nocturne than most others I've seen. The entire experience has this other-worldly feel to it. So many games try to produce that kind of atmosphere, that kind of environment, and so many come close, but none have succeeded so completely as Nocturne has.
randomkid, I've been looking through your post again for this now that I'm at home looking for one line (maybe you just didn't say it at all). I thought you said that all the additions to the Maniax edition are good, and that's a point I disagree with. Almost all of them are great - The bug fixes, system changes, the Labyrinth, the candelabra demon boss fights, and the additional exposition. I think the game might be worse for allowing you to recruit the defeated fiends. They're all fantastically cool, and I wanted them all ASAP, but I don't believe the game was balanced for them. They're far too powerful. Straight up, I think Daisoujou is the best demon in the game, and I don't just mean 'as a powerful demon you can get midgame he offers the most value throughout the playthrough'. Even endgame he's a contender, which is... not how the game's meant to be played.
Echoing what others have said, but I think this is a mistake. Planning demon fusions by looking at level-up moves and skill inheritance probabilities and being forced into compromise is fun. You're forced into different ways of playing the game and because most of the skills in the game are useful (most of them anyway! the super high risk inheritance moves with niche use like single status cures should all be memorized by any serious player and made high priority targets for replacement on level up) you're rarely burdened. Instead you adjust your line-up and in the off chance it doesn't work out, you can probably fuse them away anyway soon enough.
Spieler Eins
Member
SMT3 was like my fifth SMT game and he was a total pushover. He keeps spamming wind attacks and the area before him provides several wind absorbing demons, so...
charlequin
Banned
I'm really not sure what the solution to this is. Just switching directly from random to direct selection actually winds up modifying balance pretty severely as you can suddenly reliably get certain kinds of combinations, but the random system is very poor at information transparency and it isn't great for balance (or pacing) either if taking ten minutes per fusion produces way better results than taking one.
I have ideas for what you could do in a new hypothetical game (like maybe certain skills can only be inherited if both source demons have them, or skills can only be inherited for so many generations, or something) but anything like this is too big a change to make to an existing game.
For a remaster, I'd be pleased if they just greyed out the skills the result demon can't inherit and lowered the chance of getting low tier skills like Lunge a bit. I get why it's higher the worse the skills are, but the chances of getting those were way too high.
For new titles it'd piss off most people if they went back to random, so I'm fine with Apocalypse's affinity system.
Let's be honest though, they'd totally make them completely customizable in a remaster, on top of adding lots of other annoying details, like new side stories with worse writing and even a new look for the entire cast by Doi if it were a remake. Ew.
For new titles it'd piss off most people if they went back to random, so I'm fine with Apocalypse's affinity system.
Let's be honest though, they'd totally make them completely customizable in a remaster, on top of adding lots of other annoying details, like new side stories with worse writing and even a new look for the entire cast by Doi if it were a remake. Ew.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
They've been walking this extreme freedom back since IV for good reasons.
Thing is, it's addicting to some, so when Nocturne has none of that but a weighted system these "spend an hour in the Mansion rerolling" when that kind of "deck building" as it were isn't necessary, just beneficial compared to unique skills (either inherent or inherited). There's no bosses but one that requires a skill but there's many that reward keeping OP ones.
Basically, like the fact the Demifiend must unlearn to learn a new skill making planning a general loadout mandatory, it's a restriction, and from restriction, strength.
IV also has Whisper, which makes full selection much more necessary.
Now, the reverse chart that remembers fusion combos that you've seen? Oh hells yeah.
Thing is, it's addicting to some, so when Nocturne has none of that but a weighted system these "spend an hour in the Mansion rerolling" when that kind of "deck building" as it were isn't necessary, just beneficial compared to unique skills (either inherent or inherited). There's no bosses but one that requires a skill but there's many that reward keeping OP ones.
Basically, like the fact the Demifiend must unlearn to learn a new skill making planning a general loadout mandatory, it's a restriction, and from restriction, strength.
IV also has Whisper, which makes full selection much more necessary.
Now, the reverse chart that remembers fusion combos that you've seen? Oh hells yeah.
theofficefan99
Junior Member
I've always been interested in this game but I'm kind of allergic to games that don't have much QoL stuff now. I don't mind difficulty but I do mind losing 45+ minutes of progress.
the funny thing about the matador battle is that if you look at the threads when people were first playing the game you barely see mention of him.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19021
when did he become MYTHOLOGIZED??
... is the post I was going to make until I found these other threads:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30049
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56726
there is also still so much awful information about this fight on the internet. a post I made in the anniversary thread basically sums it up.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19021
when did he become MYTHOLOGIZED??
... is the post I was going to make until I found these other threads:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30049
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56726
there is also still so much awful information about this fight on the internet. a post I made in the anniversary thread basically sums it up.
This thread and this post are making me angry lol. I mean, WTF Sony?
Danjin44
The nicest person on this forum
Really!!? I replayed the game on my PS3 and i never experience that bug.
I think it depends of the game's region. Were you playing the PAL one? Because I beat the american release when it came out on PSN and didn't experience a single technical issue in the entirety of my playthrough.
Don't forget the completely new character (100% chance of it being female) with a design that kind of clashes with the artstyle of the whole game, takes the spotlight to themselves and comes with a new ending tied to said character. Obviously the new ending has to be even more awesomer than the ones in the base game, so in the new path you get to unite all the reason bearers by making them realise friendship is the true path to a brighter future, make them join your party and take down Lucifer, Kagutsuchi and, after witnessing your actions and branding you the Ultimate Sinner, YHVH tries to take you down by himself. There's a cutscene before his second form where you're about to be defeated but then all the demons and manikins in Tokyo suddenly start cheering you on, powering up the Demi-Fiend and making him defeat YHVH.
However, that wouldn't be cool enough, it has been done before, so we have to go deeper. After realising this wouldn't be enough to break the endless cycle, Demi-Fiend and his merry troupe of best friends travel to the center of the universe with Stephen's help (he's also a super bonus boss with 3 different phases:wheelchair Stephen, standing up Stephen, and One-Winged Angel Stephen who takes his glasses off and arrongantly smirkes while he flies above the groud enveloped by a holy-dark aura) and meet the Great Will itself. You take down the Great Will, who aknowledges your efforts but says it is ultimately meaningless, as humanity will always desire to be ruled over and yaddaydaddayadda. That's when the new character, let's call her Sue-chan, makes a grand speech about how much she learned from the demi-fiend about the true meaning of happiness, friendship and humanity's value. In an anime cutscene, she reveals her true form: True Goddess Tokyo (Shin Megami Tokyo), and proceeds to sacrifice herself in order to seal the Great Will and finally grant humanity true freedom. Everyone cries and tries to stop her, "Sue-chan!!!" "we can't go on without you!", but she smiles and the screen goes white. She gives a final speech about hope, friendship and freedom, and we cut back to Tokyo (the city).
Demi-Fiend, Isamu, Chiaki and Hikawa are having a friendly meeting. Isamu and Chiaki apologise about what they did back in the vortex world. Hikawa says how you managed to open his eyes and how foolish he had been, and how he is going to work to atone for what he did. They part ways and the player meets Hijiri, who explains how his curse had been lifted thanks to you and drops some obvious hints about how he is, in fact, SMT 2's protagonist, because subtlety is overrated. He reinforces the message of the new ending (in case it wasn't already clear enough) and leaves. You meet with Yuko and you two have a romantic-but-not-really-just-in-case-you-have-another-ship scene, she clarifies some plot details like how Futomimi and Sakahagi came back as humans, worked out their differences and are now best friends, the lady in black's true identity, and briefly reinforces the ending's message again. The screen goes black and a text message appears, heavily implied to be Stephen. He congratulates your achievements, but reminds you that "if humanity falls back on their old ways YHVH shall eventually return" because we can't have the ending be too conclusive, of course. Credits roll, Fin.
Quote
Member
Nope, this was the NA version. I assume a PS3 update broke it.
Gotta realize that Nocturne has already done the whole "Remaster the game, add a new character/story arc, release" thing. It's actually legitimately great though.
RoyaleDuke
Banned
I really really need to play this some day.
CrazyDiamond
Member
Nocturne was the first JRPG I ever played outside of Pokemon and it was one hell of a ride. One of my favorite games ever.
malboroking
Banned
It worked fine on my PS3.
Quote
Member
Recently? And was it the beginning of the game?
PhantomThief
Banned
I dont understand how this is not a ps2 classic.
cj_iwakura
Member
It was. On PS3, anyway, and even that version had issues.
I started a new game less than two months ago and finished it less than two weeks ago. The only issues were very rare portions of the game being hit with slowdown. I remember it happening at the top of the Obelisk and the section of the final dungeon that involved constantly moving parts in the background. Also the spell Mahamaon seemed to frequently get choppy for me, and also a few times Sati casting Agilao would cause the game to very briefly pause. Not ideal, but that's about it.
I restarted Nocturne once last year after not getting very far, and it held my interest until Hell Biker boss fight. There's a lot of cool themes happening in the background of it's "story" and fighting Dante from the Devil May Cry Series was pretty rad, but I just never got the feeling that Demi-fiend was involved or even remotely important with anything happening around him, not to mention his lack of any personal driving force.
I think Nocturne is the only RPG I've ever played where I don't feel like I'm progressing from one place to the next for the sake of advancing the plot, but rather because it's a new place in the map and I can use my controller to move my character there.
If that makes any sense.
I think Nocturne is the only RPG I've ever played where I don't feel like I'm progressing from one place to the next for the sake of advancing the plot, but rather because it's a new place in the map and I can use my controller to move my character there.
If that makes any sense.
cj_iwakura
Member
I think that's deliberate. He's just trying to survive, the plot doesn't revolve around him.
Sure that's deliberate, but as a player playing the videogame and observing the story and it's characters, it's difficult to stay invested in them when the main character, your avatar, has neiter any personality nor driving force to do anything.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
HIs story and personality and driving force is shown by us giving demons haymakers
and to become like unto a GOD.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
Uhhh, the plot definitely revolves around him, like, he's the only one capable of determining the fate of the entire world, after all, IIRC, he's in a prophecy where it was foretold that he's the one that would shape the Vortex World. Not to mention the whole deal with the True Demon ending.
cj_iwakura
Member
Of course, but he doesn't know that at first.
I'm aware, but that was a different time. I also fully expect them to add something if they ever do a remaster, as P3 FES didn't stop P3 PSP from having its own form of additional content. Of course, the whole thing about the power of friendship and Shin Megami Tokyo is just me poking fun at Apocalypse (and hopefully it doesn't apply to Deep Strange Journey). If they added new content I expect it to be below the rest of the game's standard, but not that badly.
As for the skill inheritance, I like the solution someone proposed of different skills having a certain amount of "skill points", and fusions having a limited amount to work with. That would prevent things like a single demon being able to inherit Debilitate, Luster Candy (though if Team Maniax has any sense of balance they should just scrap the latter for good tbh) and Antichton at the same time or something like that, because it would go over the limit. That seems like a good compromise for balance's sake. You could also add Apocalypse's affinity system on top of that. I don't actually expect them to do this though, so I would be happy with P5's way of demons being able to inherit a limited amount of skills and not being able to inherit certain skills at all depending on their type. You could also add affinities on top of that.
CrazyDiamond
Member
I love the ironic twist that the game puts on the Reasons. Like how Chiaki is all about might makes right but the only reason she's alive by the end of the game is because a big boss demon gave her his power. Or how Isamu is all about isolation but he can only accomplish anything with the help of the Demifiend. Or how the business cult dude is all about stillness yet he's constantly causing chaos from behind the scenes.
I actually wish that future SMT games followed more around the idea of new concepts such as stillness/strength/unity rather than following strictly law/chaos/good/evil though there's obviously familiarizes. Even Devil Survivor was interesting in focusing on the strengths of those alignments rather than the negatives.
Holy hell, unreleased Nocturne art, this is like Christmas.
I think it's possible but I wouldn't hold my breath... It makes lots of sense, but Atlus can be weird.
I think it's possible but I wouldn't hold my breath... It makes lots of sense, but Atlus can be weird.
ShadowKingpin
Member
If I could get a remaster of this, I would be so happy.
cj_iwakura
Member
They weren't in Kaz Works 3? Weird. Still, very nice.
Star Orpheus
Member
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Young Magus
Junior Member
Always nice to see this game get the love it deserves.
I've even made a lttp myself on the game. Its that good
I've even made a lttp myself on the game. Its that good