-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Shin Megami Tensei 4 announced for 3DS (Teaser site live)
- Thread starter SolidSnakex
- Start date
kingkaiser
Member
Shin Megami Tensei 3 has the most epic final act I have ever experienced in a video game
It all starts with the the last area on the world map. When this music kicks in...you know shit just got real
Then you have to explore the vastness of the Kagutsuchi Tower filled with dangers and traps
Until you fight against the ideology of Ron Paul
Just to realize that the fucking moon is your true enemy
It all starts with the the last area on the world map. When this music kicks in...you know shit just got real
Then you have to explore the vastness of the Kagutsuchi Tower filled with dangers and traps
Until you fight against the ideology of Ron Paul
Just to realize that the fucking moon is your true enemy
cj_iwakura
Member
You know what the big kicker of SMT3's endgame is?
Most people think you're fighting
Lucifer.
You're not.
That's HIS SHADOW.
He's merely testing you.
The potential's definitely there. Only thing is that the current Megaten battle systems are not as complex as Pokemon's but they could easily be improved if Atlus made it a priority.
It'd have to be balanced tho. I'm not interested in matches where people spam megido spells at me. Maybe a demon bartering system instead?
cj_iwakura
Member
SJ had something similar with the password system. Definitely viable.
cj_iwakura
Member
Not to my knowledge.
Light and Dark did, I don't know about the puzzle game since that one never came out over here.
Huh?
Well it's not wrong if you look at the various complexities of the two battle engines. When you add in dungeons and negotiations and all that SMT has it beat by a mile but just for monster battling?
600+ pokémon, 17 types, thousands of moves, abilities, items, natures.
Pureauthor
Member
Competitive Pokemon completely blows away anything SMT has in terms of battle complexity.
And the idea that something as relentlessly awful as Demon Negotiation adds 'complexity' is a big joke.
And the idea that something as relentlessly awful as Demon Negotiation adds 'complexity' is a big joke.
cj_iwakura
Member
This is a can of worms that should never be opened, but I'll take negotiation over anything Pokemon has to offer.
Isn't the complexity in Pokemon external to battle mechanics, though? It's like deck building in card games. Once you're in a battle with your set of pokemon, the mechanics aren't that complex at all. I guess my definition of "battle system" is vastly different from the majority here.
It's pretty cut and dry really.
Yes Aeana, the complexity in Pokémon is almost entirely in the breeding and raising of Pokémon but you can't really discount just how many options you have with over 350 fully evolved pokémon each with four moves to bring into a battle.
It gets even goofier when you go into double and triple battle scenarios.
Yes Aeana, the complexity in Pokémon is almost entirely in the breeding and raising of Pokémon but you can't really discount just how many options you have with over 350 fully evolved pokémon each with four moves to bring into a battle.
It gets even goofier when you go into double and triple battle scenarios.
Flying_Phoenix
Banned
How so?
cj_iwakura
Member
I'm wondering who has the larger demonary, now.
I'd like to think SMT, but probably Pokemon.
Still, aesthetics go a long way.
I'd like to think SMT, but probably Pokemon.
Still, aesthetics go a long way.
tofudrift1986
Neo Member
The outcome of this is simple. They either sell a few more 3DS' or they regret not putting it on a platform that will push copies. I won't be the one purchasing a handheld for one game so there's that.
No, Pokemon has way more. Strange Journey has almost every demon that's ever showed up in the series and it only managed a little over 300.
cj_iwakura
Member
Well, Samael could take on around 200 of those, so it kind of works out!
Hell, Alice w/ Die For Me!, and they're all dust.
Someone has to have done art of Hitoshura dismembering a Pokemon army by now.
Pureauthor
Member
Well we're getting Soul Hackers too so you can buy it for two games!
Although what you really should be buying it for is Etrian Odyssey 4.
Because it's a needlessly obtuse mechanic that mostly serves as a time waster to building your party.
Like non-Devil Survivor fusion (SMT) and IV breeding (Comp. Pokemon).
XiaNaphryz
LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
Oh god, are we going to start theorycrafting SMT vs Pokemon battles now?
cj_iwakura
Member
It's like verbal chess. A bit random, but I've loved negotiating dialogue trees since Eternal Punishment.
It's not SMT without negotiation.
I wish Persona could get it back.
And I hope you realize EO probably wouldn't exist without SMT as a foundation. The whole idea was to make a dungeon crawler like SMT, only in forests.
You'd be surprised. I don't have my spreadsheet with me at home, but I know it's got at least 500 entries in it. Pokemon is still probably the winner, but SMT is closer than you might think--particularly since my spreadsheet only covers the entries that we've localized, and there are a lot of demons from some older games that have never appeared in anything released in the US.
Man, what? I know you've played Wizardry before. You know this is not true.
I said they tend to use the same 200 over and over, I know there are more.
500 would surprise me though, I would have put the count at the mid 300's or so!
I'd love to see that spreadsheet though and be proven wrong, I love me some SMT demons.
EO is totally anime Wizardry for a new generation. Hard to argue this.
500 would surprise me though, I would have put the count at the mid 300's or so!
I'd love to see that spreadsheet though and be proven wrong, I love me some SMT demons.
EO is totally anime Wizardry for a new generation. Hard to argue this.
cj_iwakura
Member
Of course I have, but EO's an Atlus game. SMT had to have inspired its dungeon design on some level.
Really? When SJ was announced, I went through the compendium in every SMT game and didn't come up with much more than that. I admit, I didn't even glance at the Devil Children games, though.
cj_iwakura
Member
The DemiKids games did have a LOT of demons, but I can't recall how many were exclusive.
That was one of the first SMT games I really went all out in. I practically mastered Dark.
Pureauthor
Member
Doesn't mean I can't like EO as a series more, though!
Heh, my spreadsheet doesn't cover the Devil Children games either. I always forget those came out in English. Basically, it covers everything since Nocturne. There are some demons you might not have counted from P1 and P2 that I did count, and depending on whether you think stuff like the Zombie DJ or the deadly sins from P1 qualify, the number might go down. (I didn't count the shadows from P3 or P4, though, since those aren't really demons.)
If I remember, I'll look at it again after E3 and give a more accurate number, since I need to update it anyway.
Still really weird to me to say that EO wouldn't exist without SMT, when there are many, many examples of pre- and post-SMT first-person dungeon crawlers it takes inspiration from.
TurnipFritters
Member
P1 and IS (P1 especially) have a lot of weirdos compared to what we're used to seeing nowadays.
You know, I didn't even consider the Persona games at all in terms of actual enemies. Even Persona 3 and 4 have some really oddball enemies. I was just thinking of the ones you can fuse/recruit. I'll have to look at P1 again to see what that pool of personas is like.
cj_iwakura
Member
I remember practically begging for Messiah Raisers to get localized after finishing DemiKids Dark, just because I loved that game so much.
Flying_Phoenix
Banned
So yeah all that talk made me play SMT II again. Its alright so far. But the fight with
is impossible. Like what do I do? Grind to death? Recruit as many demons as possible? Both? One of his attacks does 66% damage...
Red Bear, that guy you fight in the beginning at the colloseum
cj_iwakura
Member
Pretty sure I steamrolled that fool.
Get more demons. You should be able to heal up before he does any real damage.
Get more demons. You should be able to heal up before he does any real damage.
charlequin
Banned
I really don't understand why cultivating your monster collection gets counted as part of the "battle system complexity" in Pokemon but not in Megaten.
You have one of these?
I need to figure out where I put mine....Like two years ago I put together the lists (as best I could determine) from more or less everything from SMTI forward and yeah, the total is well over 500. SJ has way more than any other individual entry (and a lot of demons that never appeared in any of the PS2 entries) but there's still tons that weren't included.
You have one of these?
Like two years ago I put together the lists (as best I could determine) from more or less everything from SMTI forward and yeah, the total is well over 500. SJ has way more than any other individual entry (and a lot of demons that never appeared in any of the PS2 entries) but there's still tons that weren't included.
I made mine so we didn't duplicate a lot of work with new games when translating each one's demonary, and so we could (for the most part, barring specific character limits) keep consistency between games. Which is why it doesn't have the DemiKids games in it, because I don't care what they were called in those.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
I really don't understand why cultivating your monster collection gets counted as part of the "battle system complexity" in Pokemon but not in Megaten.
You have one of these?
Like two years ago I put together the lists (as best I could determine) from more or less everything from SMTI forward and yeah, the total is well over 500. SJ has way more than any other individual entry (and a lot of demons that never appeared in any of the PS2 entries) but there's still tons that weren't included.
He seems to confuse breadth with depth in game mechanics (not getting involved in this fight beyond that observation).
Yeah, I was too tired to fully think out the defense of Pokémon's battle mechanics and instead went for the simple explanation.
Megaten has some really interesting stuff involving reflecting, immunity, type matching, buff, debuffing stuff, so does Pokémon. Where Pokémon goes above and beyond are its weather and field effects, abilities, item usage.
Also of course there is the human factor. At the end of the day it is the competitive nature of Pokémon that separates it. Anyone can eventually get really good at beating the CPU in both games by breeding the hell out of their monsters and making a well balanced team that covers all elements. But can you perfectly plan out all the possible counters a human can use?
Megaten has some really interesting stuff involving reflecting, immunity, type matching, buff, debuffing stuff, so does Pokémon. Where Pokémon goes above and beyond are its weather and field effects, abilities, item usage.
Also of course there is the human factor. At the end of the day it is the competitive nature of Pokémon that separates it. Anyone can eventually get really good at beating the CPU in both games by breeding the hell out of their monsters and making a well balanced team that covers all elements. But can you perfectly plan out all the possible counters a human can use?
Part of Pokemon is in abilities, status moves, and prediction. A properly developed synergistic team for competitive play takes hours to organize and strategize. The element of surprise is crucial, if all Pokemon are similar tier. I'd say Risk would be a better anaolgy.
I'm not saying the human factor doesn't make Pokemon ultimately more enjoyable, but I'm not sure how it's part of Pokemon's mechanics.
XeroSauce
Member
Flying_Phoenix
Banned
Well I started playing SMT II again. Man was I wrong about this game. I'm HOOKED! Though the game has its flaws (it take too long and is too much work to get to the save point) its really fun. Haven't played a Megaten game in years. This should be a treat.
So far I just
beat King Jack Frost.