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[SMT]

Great, now I can use the 3DS again!
Persona 5 still a no show.



I'm okay with this, I still feel like my 3DS is lacking titles. Gravity Rush is on PSVita, 3DS has Zeruda.

 

[Daimaou]

Yeah, I was too tired to fully think out the defense of Pokémon's battle mechanics and instead went for the simple explanation.

Megaten has some really interesting stuff involving reflecting, immunity, type matching, buff, debuffing stuff, so does Pokémon. Where Pokémon goes above and beyond are its weather and field effects, abilities, item usage.

Also of course there is the human factor. At the end of the day it is the competitive nature of Pokémon that separates it. Anyone can eventually get really good at beating the CPU in both games by breeding the hell out of their monsters and making a well balanced team that covers all elements. But can you perfectly plan out all the possible counters a human can use?

You're comparing apples to oranges. One series aims to have competition between two human participants as something of an endgame, the other is just an RPG franchise whose main goal is to beat the story campaign and maybe a few bonus bosses.

Even so, I'd still call SMT's battle systems more complex than Pokemon's, if only due to sheer customization. SMT's customization in the more recent games is to the point where there are no "low tier" demons, if you invest enough time and effort, pretty much any demon/persona/whatever can be as strong as basically any other. When I was playing through the girl's route on P3P, I made a 4 element Lamia and decided to use her for the rest of the game. Why? Because I simply could. In that game you can raise your Persona's stats via the arcade and give them new abilities via Skill Cards. Now, not all of the games have things as broken as Skill Cards, but you can still do some pretty berserk things using both normal and Mitama fusion in Nocturne, or with Sources in SJ.

Now, consider Pokemon, out of the 650 or however many they have now, how many are actually viable to use without stipulations agreed upon beforehand? I don't have a hard percent, but it's easily a minority. And given those few pokemon, things are woefully static. Abilities are pokemon specific, and even though they have a few to choose from, typically only one is worth using, two if you're lucky. Also, weakness/resistance is tied almost entirely to typing, which is also static. All Tyranitar have a double weakness to fighting, compared to SMT where not all player made Jack Frosts are weak to fire.

I could probably go on, getting into move lists and actual battle mechanics like press turns, but I've spent too much time on this post already.

Spoiler

I'm also probably pretty biased.

 

[Koroviev]

You're comparing apples to oranges. One series aims to have competition between two human participants as something of an endgame, the other is just an RPG franchise whose main goal is to beat the story campaign and maybe a few bonus bosses.

Even so, I'd still call SMT's battle systems more complex than Pokemon's, if only due to sheer customization. SMT's customization in the more recent games is to the point where there are no "low tier" demons, if you invest enough time and effort, pretty much any demon/persona/whatever can be as strong as basically any other. When I was playing through the girl's route on P3P, I made a 4 element Lamia and decided to use her for the rest of the game. Why? Because I simply could. In that game you can raise your Persona's stats via the arcade and give them new abilities via Skill Cards. Now, not all of the games have things as broken as Skill Cards, but you can still do some pretty berserk things using both normal and Mitama fusion in Nocturne, or with Sources in SJ.

Now, consider Pokemon, out of the 650 or however many they have now, how many are actually viable to use without stipulations agreed upon beforehand? I don't have a hard percent, but it's easily a minority. And given those few pokemon, things are woefully static. Abilities are pokemon specific, and even though they have a few to choose from, typically only one is worth using, two if you're lucky. Also, weakness/resistance is tied almost entirely to typing, which is also static. All Tyranitar have a double weakness to fighting, compared to SMT where not all player made Jack Frosts are weak to fire.

I could probably go on, getting into move lists and actual battle mechanics like press turns, but I've spent too much time on this post already.

Spoiler

I'm also probably pretty biased.

I'm not sure this is true, at least in the Devil Survivor series. I mean, I guess you could raise a level 10 demon to level 100, but it would take a ridiculous amount of time. The game really provides a strong disincentive for sticking to the same demons, rather than fusing new ones. Sure, some demons remain viable longer than others, but it's always pretty evident which demons you've had for a while. They just don't have a whole lot of vitality/HP compared to an updated party.

Devil Survivor actually does something pretty interesting with the basic exp system. Yes, the essential set-up is there: in order to level up, you and your demons must earn x amount of exp in battle. However, rather than scaling with level, this amount starts out fairly low for each new demon, irrespective of level, and grows very fast with each new level, to the point that it's prohibitively costly to keep that demon on the team, as they quickly fall behind newer demons, which gain levels much faster. Contrast this with Pokemon, in which exp is directly proportional to level. Therefore, I think Pokemon is the game that encourages training weaker team members, while Devil Survivor rewards creating new demons.

 

[reriel]

Really? When SJ was announced, I went through the compendium in every SMT game and didn't come up with much more than that. I admit, I didn't even glance at the Devil Children games, though.

Well, according to my Akuma Jiten there were 455 enemies between SMTI, SMTII and If (511 including bosses)but of course there are some not fusable/recruitable enemies in the pool.
And Devil Summoner/Soul hackers should have others exclusive demons.

 

[Dmax3901]

So I know nothing about this series but keep hearing the name everywhere, someone wanna catch me up to speed?

 

[Daimaou]

I'm not sure this is true, at least in the Devil Survivor series. I mean, I guess you could raise a level 10 demon to level 100, but it would take a ridiculous amount of time. The game really provides a strong disincentive for sticking to the same demons, rather than fusing new ones. Sure, some demons remain viable longer than others, but it's always pretty evident which demons you've had for a while. They just don't have a whole lot of vitality/HP compared to an updated party.

Devil Survivor actually does something pretty interesting with the basic exp system. Yes, the essential set-up is there: in order to level up, you and your demons must earn x amount of exp in battle. However, rather than scaling with level, this amount starts out fairly low for each new demon, irrespective of level, and grows very fast with each new level, to the point that it's prohibitively costly to keep that demon on the team, as they quickly fall behind newer demons, which gain levels much faster. Contrast this with Pokemon, in which exp is directly proportional to level. Therefore, I think Pokemon is the game that encourages training weaker team members, while Devil Survivor rewards creating new demons.

You're right about the leveling thing, and this does vary a bit from game to game in the franchise. But this is prohibitive in that it only takes time investment to overcome. Opposed to Pokemon where no matter how hard you want that Caterpie or even Butterfree to be competitive, you just can't make it so due to stat ceilings.

 

[Koroviev]

So I know nothing about this series but keep hearing the name everywhere, someone wanna catch me up to speed?

It's kind of like Pokemon, except with much more customization, as another poster stated. In every SMT game, you fight using an arsenal of demons. Some games have you negotiate with demons to get them on your team, others have you purchase the demons in an auction. At any rate, once you have a couple of demons, you can fuse them together to create new demons with better stats and skills, as well as fewer weaknesses (ideally none).

Each demon you create belongs to a specific race with an associated alignment (i.e. law/neutral/chaos). In the Devil Survivor games, the race of the demon also determines which special inherent skill the demon possesses. The respective races of the two demons you fuse together dictate the race of the resulting demon.

In addition to elemental magic, SMT games also offer almighty skills, which cannot be blocked, reflected or drained. These attacks are usually very effective against bosses, which often have few, if any, weaknesses. SMT games reward careful planning, while swiftly punishing thoughtless strategies.

 

[Deleted member 13876]

Y. All Tyranitar have a double weakness to fighting, compared to SMT where not all player made Jack Frosts are weak to fire.

I could probably go on, getting into move lists and actual battle mechanics like press turns, but I've spent too much time on this post already.

Spoiler

I'm also probably pretty biased.

Stuff like that isn't conducive to a competitive metagame though, which SMT doesn't have but still. If you had to guess the weakness of each Pokemon that would remove depth rather than add it.

 

[Smo21]

Im a fan of the recent smt spin offs( loved persona 3/4, devil survivour 1/2) and ive been meaning to catch up on some of the older titles. Are there any legal way to play smt 1 & 2 in English?

 

[Laughing Banana]

Well, Samael could take on around 200 of those, so it kind of works out!

Hell, Alice w/ Die For Me!, and they're all dust.

Someone has to have done art of Hitoshura dismembering a Pokemon army by now.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

So I know nothing about this series but keep hearing the name everywhere, someone wanna catch me up to speed?

Read this.

Buy this. Play this.

Enjoy! It truly is one of the great RPG series that have existed.

 

[Daimaou]

Stuff like that isn't conducive to a competitive metagame though, which SMT doesn't have but still. If you had to guess the weakness of each Pokemon that would remove depth rather than add it.

How does it remove depth? You know that the opponent has access to abilities which cover the weaknesses of their demons, and you can therefore avoid using that type of attack against it. However, knowing that people will likely avoid using fire on a Jack Frost because these skills exist, they may just forgo having the weakness covered at all, using the valuable skill slot for something else.

As someone stated earlier, this is the human element of competition, and an important part. Prediction. Guesswork. Saying it removes depth is like saying Magic the Gathering is less competitive because you don't know what the other person has in their deck of cards.

 

[Dmax3901]

It's kind of like Pokemon, except with much more customization, as another poster stated. In every SMT game, you fight using an arsenal of demons. Some games have you negotiate with demons to get them on your team, others have you purchase the demons in an auction. At any rate, once you have a couple of demons, you can fuse them together to create new demons with better stats and skills, as well as fewer weaknesses (ideally none).

Each demon you create belongs to a specific race with an associated alignment (i.e. law/neutral/chaos). In the Devil Survivor games, the race of the demon also determines which special inherent skill the demon possesses. The respective races of the two demons you fuse together dictate the race of the resulting demon.

In addition to elemental magic, SMT games also offer almighty skills, which cannot be blocked, reflected or drained. These attacks are usually very effective against bosses, which often have few, if any, weaknesses. SMT games reward careful planning, while swiftly punishing thoughtless strategies.

Interesting, thanks for the in-depth response!

EDIT:

Read this.

Buy this. Play this.

Enjoy! It truly is one of the great RPG series that have existed.

Perfect, thanks!

 

[Deleted member 13876]

How does it remove depth? You know that the opponent has access to abilities which cover the weaknesses of their demons, and you can therefore avoid using that type of attack against it. However, knowing that people will likely avoid using fire on a Jack Frost because these skills exist, they may just forgo having the weakness covered at all, using the valuable skill slot for something else.

As someone stated earlier, this is the human element of competition, and an important part. Prediction. Guesswork. Saying it removes depth is like saying Magic the Gathering is less competitive because you don't know what the other person has in their deck of cards.

Sometimes depth comes from having your options limited. SMT games would be a lot simpler if there was no 8 move max (don't know if each games has this). If a Pokemon suddenly could have any of his weaknesses shifted to 1 of 17 different types or can have full type invulnerability the game becomes either a complete guesswork or the metagame completely eliminates the targeting of weaknesses as a whole because you'd be a fool not to void your weakness. When there are too many variables going on at once, prediction can become infeasible I think.

 

[Boogiepop]

You're right about the leveling thing, and this does vary a bit from game to game in the franchise. But this is prohibitive in that it only takes time investment to overcome. Opposed to Pokemon where no matter how hard you want that Caterpie or even Butterfree to be competitive, you just can't make it so due to stat ceilings.

Aren't you comparing the single-player of SMT games to the competitive environment of pokemon, though? I mean, sure your Butterfree is going to suck in a competitive battle (barring maybe tiers or something, but I don't know if it does well even with those restrictions), but you can definitely take it through the main game and it'll serve you just fine. Heck, that's the only way I played through Yellow. If anything, it seems like Pokemon makes it a LOT more accessible to use a Butterfree or something successfully throughout the game than any SMT game I've ever touched has made it to take, say, a Pixie as part of your party through the whole experience.

 

[Daimaou]

Sometimes depth comes from having your options limited. SMT games would be a lot simpler if there was no 8 move max (don't know if each games has this). If a Pokemon suddenly could have any of his weaknesses shifted to 1 of 17 different types or can have full type invulnerability the game becomes either a complete guesswork or the metagame completely eliminates the targeting of weaknesses as a whole because you'd be a fool not to void your weakness. When there are too many variables going on at once, prediction can become infeasible I think.

I don't think it's really a question of the amount of variables, so much as how those variables are balanced. And I think we can both agree that if they were truly to aim for competitive battles in SMT, they'd certainly have to re-balance some things.

Aren't you comparing the single-player of SMT games to the competitive environment of pokemon, though? I mean, sure your Butterfree is going to suck in a competitive battle (barring maybe tiers or something, but I don't know if it does well even with those restrictions), but you can definitely take it through the main game and it'll serve you just fine. Heck, that's the only way I played through Yellow. If anything, it seems like Pokemon makes it a LOT more accessible to use a Butterfree or something successfully throughout the game than any SMT game I've ever touched has made it to take, say, a Pixie as part of your party through the whole experience.

I was speaking in a hypothetical sense where you reach endgame and then "design" your demons or pokemon. Anyone who competitively battles in Pokemon would use different pokemon to do so than the ones they used to go through the campaign, if only due to how IVs and EVs work. The same would be true of SMT. The reason you don't use the same demons the entire time in a SMT campaign is because there's no reason to, other than additional challenge. Campaigns, in this sense, don't matter. I was merely stating that at the end of the game, when you have free reign to design whatever sort of pokemon or demon you want, you can use any demon you want as a template. The same is not true of Pokemon. I apologize if that wasn't clear.

 

[randomkid]

this thread sure has taken some odd turns while everyone waits for more news. reading about pokemon battle mechanics is still 1000000 times better than when people were discussing the plot of xenosaga games though.

urge to at least play SMT1 before this hits has really been skyrocketing in the past couple days. i keep holding out for some kind of remake or even an iOS localization announcement, i wonder if i should just give up and pick up an SNES cart from ebay. agh, decisions, decisions.

 

[Koroviev]

this thread sure has taken some odd turns while everyone waits for more news. reading about pokemon battle mechanics is still 1000000 times better than when people were discussing the plot of xenosaga games though.

urge to at least play SMT1 before this hits has really been skyrocketing in the past couple days. i keep holding out for some kind of remake or even an iOS localization announcement, i wonder if i should just give up and pick up an SNES cart from ebay. agh, decisions, decisions.

Well, you should contribute to the retrospective thread in some way ;p

 

[randomkid]

Well, you should contribute to the retrospective thread in some way ;p

keep peeking in there and scrolling frantically past anything that mentions the first two SMT games. I did manage to see a bit about some emulation issues people were having and that was scaring me too ha.

 

[Koroviev]

keep peeking in there and scrolling frantically past anything that mentions the first two SMT games. I did manage to see a bit about some emulation issues people were having and that was scaring me too ha.

I think the issue was simply related to the translation, since English characters take up more space, thus causing some minor overlapping. Nothing major, afaik.

 

[cultureculture]

I think the issue was simply related to the translation, since English characters take up more space, thus causing some minor overlapping. Nothing major, afaik.

There are a few game breakers. Basically, the text of the game was wrapped up in some absurdly complicated scripting which is easy to break during translation. I understand there are a couple of bits that break depending which route you're on, forcing you to temporarily use a Japanese ROM to get around them. (If I remember correctly, there were three people on the beta test and two of them didn't finish their assigned paths. Slight chance of me misremembering, it was a long time ago.)

(Edit: I wouldn't use that as a stick to beat the translation with though. Translations like this are very difficult and the margin of error is very high, but you don't have the luxury of having it professionally tested like an official translation.)

 

[Aeana]

There are a few game breakers. Basically, the text of the game was wrapped up in some absurdly complicated scripting which is easy to break during translation. I understand there are a couple of bits that break depending which route you're on, forcing you to temporarily use a Japanese ROM to get around them. (If I remember correctly, there were three people on the beta test and two of them didn't finish their assigned paths. Slight chance of me misremembering, it was a long time ago.)

From what I understood, that was during optional parts, wasn't it?

 

[cultureculture]

From what I understood, that was during optional parts, wasn't it?

Was

Spoiler

the octopus

optional? I think that was broken on the

Spoiler

Law

and

Spoiler

Chaos

routes.

 

[luca1980]

So when are we getting few pics or a video?

 

[Jucksalbe]

So when are we getting few pics or a video?

I think there's supposed to be more information in next week's Famitsu.

 

[sfried]

I'm okay with this, I still feel like my 3DS is lacking titles. Gravity Rush is on PSVita, 3DS has Zeruda.

No Kid Icarus: Uprising? Blasphemy!

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

New info in Famitsu via our gentle friends at Andriasang

Hiraoka touched briefly on Shin Megamitensei IV, a game which has been shown only in teaser advertisement form. He promised that the game's selling point will be the proper evolution/advancement of the elements that make up the previous Megaten games. They won't let down current fans, he assured. The battle system will also inherit from the past titles.

Atlus is one of the few companies that reassures me when they say "evolution" in reguards to game design.

 

[randomkid]

New info in Famitsu via our gentle friends at Andriasang

Atlus is one of the few companies that reassures me when they say "evolution" in reguards to game design.

Good stuff, but I was hoping that the site would be updated now that a full week has passed. I thought that was how it worked with Strange Journey. I just need to see Trailer 1 before I go on blackout!

 

[Magnus]

Is this...Persona 4?

Or like, some portable enhanced version of it, a la the PSP releases over the last couple years?

Edit- nm, Wikipedia cleared shit up. Sort of.

 

[randomkid]

Is this...Persona 4?

Or like, some portable enhanced version of it, a la the PSP releases over the last couple years?

No, no, some old school Megaten fans would kill you for saying such things heh. Persona is a spinoff series in the franchise. This is part of the original mainline series that's nothing like modern Persona. Atlus USA just uses "SMT" as part of its branding here.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

Is this...Persona 4?

Or like, some portable enhanced version of it, a la the PSP releases over the last couple years?

Edit- nm, Wikipedia cleared shit up. Sort of.

Here ya go. 4th in the mainline series. The Core Series. The Main Event.

 

[cj_iwakura]

Persona users mostly fight psychopaths and rampant demi-gods.

Core protagonists go after the big guy Himself.

 

[charlequin]

New info in Famitsu via our gentle friends at Andriasang

aMAAAAAAAAzing~

 

[cultureculture]

http://megaten4.jp/

Teaser site has been updated with the slightest of updates.

If you like Shin Megami Tensei 1's opening, you're in for a nice surprise.

Edit: They also added a label saying it's the Maniacs Team on this, is that news?

Edit2: You can also disregard this because of the NeoGAF SMT 3DS thread curse: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=39363386

 

[OfWhiteSkinOnRedLeather]

http://megaten4.jp/

Teaser site has been updated with the slightest of updates.

If you like Shin Megami Tensei 1's opening, you're in for a nice surprise.

Edit: They also added a label saying it's the Maniacs Team on this, is that news?

No, but I don't think it's been posted yet.

 

[cj_iwakura]

In addition to the awesome remix of SMTII's OP music(can't wait for III's)

"Like the Messiah Project in Shin Megami Tensei II, we are trying to create a new saviour (Messiah).
- Kenichi Tsuchiya, sound director"

God I hope this means Tsuchiya's doing the music. I love his stuff.

 

[TurnipFritters]

The website was updated with a remix of Nocturne's main theme. It is wonderful and you should probably go listen to it.

 

[Taruranto]

Fuck all this teasing, i want screens.

 

[TurnipFritters]

You will have screens and video at the end of the month.

 

[randomkid]

Alright, I allowed myself a listen since this was a remix of a song I've already heard. Grinning like crazy here. I do wish the guitar hadn't kicked in last minute though, (yes I'm aware that it's insane to be a Megaten music enthusiast who doesn't care for guitars). I'm just saying, electronic glitchiness seems more sinister and appropriate to me than the inherent cheesiness of a guitar solo.

 

[TwoDurans]

Is the Digital Devil Saga complete? It's been so long since I beat DDS2 I don't remember if it wrapped everything up.

 

[Caelestis]

Is the Digital Devil Saga complete? It's been so long since I beat DDS2 I don't remember if it wrapped everything up.

It's complete, but I am sure they could easily make a 3 if they would want to.

 

[Aeana]

I actually don't even know if they could make a 3, given how things in 2 ended up.

 

[TwoDurans]

I actually don't even know if they could make a 3, given how things in 2 ended up.

Didn't the all end up

Spoiler

resurrected as babies on a new earth

or something like that? Seems like it'd be easy to make a new one if that was the case.

 

[cj_iwakura]

Enjoy the remix of Nocturne BGM, but I want new stuff. Hit me, Tsuchiya.

 

[BasilZero]

Nice, gonna get this as well for my future 3DS.

Now waiting for them to announce Persona 5...for the consoles hopefully.

 

[vall03]

damn, and just the other day it was the Law Theme playing there and now Nocturne Main Theme, Soul Hackers can't come soon enough!

 

[indigo-cyclops]

Is it safe to say I really really need to get a 3DS for this game? That music...it's getting me pumped.

 

[cj_iwakura]

Is it safe to say I really really need to get a 3DS for this game? That music...it's getting me pumped.

No.

Spoiler

You need it for Soul Hackers. You KEEP it for this.

 

[indigo-cyclops]

No.

Spoiler

You need it for Soul Hackers. You KEEP it for this.

Ah right, right, that distinction is important. I've wanted to play Soul Hackers for so damn long.