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[Zeliard]

holy shit this thread

this fucking thread

What is happening in here.

Urgh, this thread is going to get locked because of the idiots who aren't interested in attempting an intelligent discussion.

This is the gaming side, dudes. I know people always rag on it, but let's all admit the obvious truth here: this topic would have been far more successful in Off-Topic (not that I'm saying it actually belongs there rather than here, and I'm also certainly not saying that OT is somehow perfect).

In the end, this thread with this particular topic created on the gaming side has the effect of being the ultimate ban trap. :lol

 

[soldat7]

There are more than enough affluent celebrities using their power, money and influence to push the exact opposite agenda.

Card is a writer and therefore more powerful at turning people's minds than say, mere movie stars.

That said, I only wanted to point out that it's impossible to not have your money support bad people, and that in the case of Shadow Complex you're hurting a team of individuals who are most certainly not racist or homophobic.

But they live in UTAH. PROVO, Utah.

 

[Timber]

Shadow Complex as a game is not apologetic of Card's points of view... My opinion is that boycotting Shadow Complex it's a fascist attitude and only detrimental to people that worked their best to create something good...

Christ on a stick, it's another variant of the book burning accusations! It's difficult to keep up with this thread, but get this: NO ONE is advocating a ban on Shadow Complex. We are simply voting with our money. A personal decision to not purchase a single product is fascism? These accusations are offensive beyond belief.

 

[Grimmy]

I'd like to thank the OP for brining the issue up - I never knew about Card's associations. I'll be more aware of what he does/isassociated with from now on.

Though I do think that maybe if the OP and thread wasn't so confrontational ("boybott"), it would have been better and generated less knee-jerk reactions.

 

[Askani]

Wait people are arguing that electricity is not essential to life today? Really? Really? This thread is officially off the deep end. I can not believe people are defending that analogy.

Not arguing for or against it being a valid analogy, but I have to say: It's essential to life as you know it and the level to which you currently live yours. It's not essential to life as a whole.

 

[Souldriver]

you know you'd be agreeing with the op if the person in question was the head of an anti-marijuana legalization group that significantly influenced an important vote

Shots fired.






(But that's essentially what it boils down to. The people for who this is a serious issue, and would let it influence their buying habits, this thread is a good way to inform them. It's also nice that other people get informed, but clearly the OP is not addressing them, so there's no need to get all uppity about it.)

 

[poppabk]

Completely missing the point seems to be the standard in this thread. How is not buying something, and trying to inform others (while letting them make their own decisions) as to the nature of a person involved in the product, a power trip? Please don't conflate a boycott with an attempt to ban. The only power we can exert is our power to not give money to people who might use it for purposes we find offensive. That's not a power trip; that's common sense. And you seem to imply that this decision extends only to Shadow Complex. Utterly presumptuous. I don't think anyone who wouldn't buy this game would buy anything of which the profits go to a hateful cause. It's a small segment of a larger effort, nothing to do with randomly or poorly picking battles.

But there is no evidence that a single penny from this game is going towards the opposition to gay rights other than the fact that someone involved has been known to give money to anti gay marriage supporters. There is no evidence that the purchase of this game will have any effect whatsoever on the advancement of gay rights and it seems kind of ludicrous to think that the two are linked in anything but the most abstract ways.

 

[Calcaneus]

I think the word "boycott" is tripping some people up in this thread. If someone decides to boycott something, they just wont buy the thing, they aren't trying to get it destroyed or condemn anyone who does buy it.

 

[elrechazado]

Christ on a stick, it's another variant of the book burning accusations! It's difficult to keep up with this thread, but get this: NO ONE is advocating a ban on Shadow Complex. We are simply voting with our money. A personal decision to not purchase a single product is fascism? These accusations are offensive beyond belief.

I think the OP would have received a lot more sympathy and a lot fewer cries of fascism if he had simply said "should I boycott shadow complex" or "here are the reasons I will not buy shadow complex". The attitude that stakes out his personal views as a line in the sand, implying that all who disagree are evil, is not conducive to a rational discussion or particularly effective in encouraging others to adopt his rationale.



Personally I hate card for running the ender series into the shitter.

 

[Mercury Fred]

Both Epic and Chair, as companies, should be allowed to do what they do (make video games), without being forced to take a stand on any political issue. There's a line down the middle of the road. Some people associated with this game stand on one side, some on the other, but the company and the product sit in the middle. The moment Epic does what you ask, they take a side. They shouldn't have to.

No one is forcing anyone to do anything. Epic is free to do nothing, and should a boycott mushroom, then they may find their reputation sullied with the gay community. That's something they may or may not care about.

 

[Souldriver]

I think the word "boycott" is tripping some people up in this thread. If someone decides to boycott something, they just wont buy the thing, they aren't trying to get it destroyed or condemn anyone who does buy it.

Yeah, I also think a lot of the hostility is coming from the wording of the thread title. Especially the "we" part. It sounds as if it would be an organized boycott from (all) gamers. But it's not. It's up for every gamer individually to let or not let it influence his/her purchase.

 

[Amir0x]

you know you'd be agreeing with the op if the person in question was the head of an anti-marijuana legalization group that significantly influenced an important vote

First of all, gay rights are far more important than the legalization of weed. Such matters like getting fucked up are trivial in comparison.

That said, my views are extremely consistent politically. I do not believe art, whether current or past, should be held accountable for the personal demons of their authors. Something that is good, is good. And I am not going to prevent myself from enjoying them because of that.

Instead, if it really is offensive, I could donate to charity. Which will do a lot more good than not buying the product will.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Probably the most inane thread NeoGAF has ever nested. And that's a pretty heinous title to receive.

The fact that the subject matter draws a lot of vapid, thoughtless responses doesn't necessarily make the subject matter itself inane. The core discussion of relevant points is interesting, for sure.

 

[Walshicus]

Completely missing the point seems to be the standard in this thread. How is not buying something, and trying to inform others (while letting them make their own decisions) as to the nature of a person involved in the product, a power trip? Please don't conflate a boycott with an attempt to ban. The only power we can exert is our power to not give money to people who might use it for purposes we find offensive. That's not a power trip; that's common sense. And you seem to imply that this decision extends only to Shadow Complex. Utterly presumptuous. I don't think anyone who wouldn't buy this game would buy anything of which the profits go to a hateful cause. It's a small segment of a larger effort, nothing to do with randomly or poorly picking battles.

Yeah, but it seems very likely that most companies have in their employ people who support any range of illiberal policies.

 

[NullPointer]

The only power we can exert is our power to not give money to people who might use it for purposes we find offensive. That's not a power trip; that's common sense. And you seem to imply that this decision extends only to Shadow Complex.

I agree with this entirely, and I never implied that your decision extends ONLY to Shadow Complex, but that *is* what this thread is about, and its what I'm talking about.

But sometimes doing what seems reasonable or right or just only serves to have the opposite effect. Good intentions and all that.

As somebody who has a great many gay friends as well as family filled with closet bigots, I can easily imagine their reactions. People on the fence, who are not pro-gay rights, but aren't against it either will see something innocuous being targeted unreasonably, and gain OSC some sympathy.

Prop 8 didn't pass because of Orson Scott Card, or video games related to him, or his books, or any of a million tangential reasons. It failed because the campaign was flawed and mismanaged, and riled up the opposition prematurely, and forced people to take sides too early into this movement.

*If* this thread's boycott happened on a wide scale, made the press, was "successful", it'll do more harm than good. That's what I mean by picking battles. Its also what I meant by spite instead of strategy. This is all of course, opinion.

 

[soyboy]

It's the Heidegger dilemma.

Do you boycott someone's valid work because of the points of view associated with it. It's a slippery slope that everyone has been dealing with for years. Does the fact that Heidegger was Nazi invalidate his ideas & are we somehow saying that Nazism is valid when we support his ideas?

Orson Scott Card & Shadow complex is a lot more complicated because all of his ideas come from a homophobic ideology. It's kind of like a poisoned waterfall/well. Everything flowing from it is somewhat tainted.

I personally will not be purchasing the game but won't pass judgment on the people who choose to do so.

 

[TheKurgan]

i was just making an extreme example of people buying the product wathever its origins

summary

1) bob thinks asian people are subhuman/inhuman and should be treated as such
2) bob makes kickass game
3) bob uses profits from said game to promoto that asians are inhuman

now would you or would you not buy said game?
personally i cant do it
many dont give a flying fuck though

I get the whole arguement and don't want to trivialize the “Gay Marriage / Equal Rights” debate. But in this case Chair/Epic does not equal bob IMHO. This Orson Scott Card guy (sorry never heard of him) wrote a book that Shadow Complex is based on. He didn't make the game, he doesn't work at Chair or Epic. He gets a royalty on his IP and that is it.

Boycott Shadow Complex if you want but I think the connection that is being made is weak.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

The wordd "boycott" and probably "we" did throw people off, I'm sure. The OP should have phrased it differently.

But the words "homosexual" and "gay" meant GAF would have a huge overreaction, anyway.

People will get incredibly upset and propose boycotts over Bobby Kotick raising the price of a PC game $10, but when it's something that actually matters, it becomes a laughable concept. To be quite honest, if this were an activision game we were talking about, and not a very good one, I feel like the same people screaming about hypersensitivity would be quiet.

 

[Quixzlizx]

I have a sense there is some systemz warz going on in this topic.... So gay....

"I, for one, am glad I'm not played by homophobic xbots."

 

[Spoo]

So one man has an opinion, and then loosely associates himself with one of the best XBLA games of all time, and now we should boycott because we don't agree with his ideas?

Fuck that.

I purchased Shadow Complex primarily because it looked like an awesome game. I also happen to live in Utah -- and want to support the Provo, Utah game devs Chair. They deserve it, as they've crafted one helluva game.

So what about Card? He expressed his opinion. My opinion is that he's wrong, but the beauty of the US is that we can have opinions and voice them. Gay communities have gotten as far as they have because of this right, so why should we deny it to Card? Beyond that, this isn't really about Card at all. He didn't have much to do with the game; just loosely tied it into his right-wing propaganda. A lot of blood, sweat and money had to go into this game to get it to be as good as it is! Why not fucking boycott Gears of War -- because Epic helped create this game, so clearly they hate gays!

Stupidest fucking thread I've seen in FOREVER. Thanks GAF for never dissapointing.

 

[kodt]

So if I'm not willing to give up almost everything for gay-rights (electricity is essential to live), I'm a hypocrite and should probably give up my support for the cause?

My extreme example was simply to make a point. That there is comes a point when people are no longer willing to give something up to support the cause. The OP and others in this thread who are boycotting this game are claiming the moral high ground, when in reality they are doing very little to support gay-rights.

These small insignificant actions are hardly worth noting, let alone making a thread over. And feeling proud about them is insulting to those who make real contributions and make real sacrifices for the cause. Similar to people who buy a $10 rubber bracelet to show off what causes they support. The tiny amount of money you gave is hardly significant, when the real reason they purchased the bracelet was to feel good about themselves and show off that they support a good cause. In reality they do little at all to support it.

If you really care about a cause and want to help it, it is extremely unlikely that you will be able to make any significant contribution without some form of sacrifice. (be it monetary, time, possessions, reputation etc.) Boycotting Shadow Complex is not a sacrifice :lol

 

[elrechazado]

The wordd "boycott" and probably "we" did throw people off, I'm sure. The OP should have phrased it differently.

But the words "homosexual" and "gay" meant GAF would have a huge overreaction, anyway.

People will get incredibly upset and propose boycotts over Bobby Kotick raising the price of a PC game $10, but when it's something that actually matters, it becomes a laughable concept. To be quite honest, if this were an activision game we were talking about, and not a very good one, I feel like the same people screaming about hypersensitivity would be quiet.

Just imagine the hurricane if it were a gay themed activision sony exclusive.

 

[kinggroin]

I completely understand the OP and what's supposed to be accomplished here. However I gotta say, if folks are THAT upset over the viewpoints of one man, yet purchasing the game is still okay (so long as money is donated to a gay rights charity)...

... I find that incredibly hypocritical. Kinda reminds me of a christian who believes "sinning (however you define it) on Saturday is just fine so long as they show up for church. Bad form IMO. If you have strong convictions, then follow through fully (so long as no one is hurt in the process).

I'm personally someone that cares not about whether homosexuals get married or not, but rather if marriage should be defined by the state or the church (if the former, then folks should expect gay marriage to be legalized; and if the later, don't expect state recognition of a couple's union). This, I feel, is where the whole problem stems from anyway.

 

[wayward archer]

If buying this game for $15 makes you feel uncomfortable because OSC is going to get some of it, donate another $15 to a gay rights organization.

The universe is balanced.

 

[gregor7777]

The fact that the subject matter draws a lot of vapid, thoughtless responses doesn't necessarily make the subject matter itself inane. The core discussion of relevant points is interesting, for sure.

I don't think the core discussion is why he and others (me) think the thread ranks amongst GAFs worst.

It's the vapid, thoughtless responses that makes it so.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

I get the whole arguement and don't want to trivialize the “Gay Marriage / Equal Rights” debate. But in this case Chair/Epic does not equal bob IMHO. This Orson Scott Card guy (sorry never heard of him) wrote a book that Shadow Complex is based on. He didn't make the game, he doesn't work at Chair or Epic. He gets a royalty on his IP and that is it.

Boycott Shadow Complex if you want but I think the connection that is being made is weak.

Uhm

No

He has a series of books and Chair approached him (there is a long standing history between the founders and Card, going back to Advent Rising, they're friends) to do a video game version based on the novel. Instead, Shadow Complex exists as a prequel to the novel, with the concept and consultation done by Card on staff. He also collects royalties in addition to being involved with the game.

It would really help if you read the thread first.

 

[Black Rainbow]

"Now why should we boycott it? Card is a notorious homophobe."

There is a lot of social change occurring around the world today with regard to homosexuality and its acceptance. Thankfully, more and more people are realizing that homosexuals are human beings as well and should not be treated as inferior to their heterosexual counterparts. Yet, the fact remains that old habits die hard and it was not too long ago in many societies where it was unthinkable to "come out of the closet". I think it's a bit unrealistic to expect everyone to have a favorable view of homosexuals at this stage (or ever, unfortunately), and to boycott a video game on the basis that one of its writers is known to be opposed to homosexuals is a bit much. As someone else pointed out, many people who may not share Mr. Card's views on homosexuals have contributed to the development of this game. It's their livelihood.

When someone speaks ill of something I like, I simply ignore them. I'm not saying that one shouldn't boycott, but boycotts should always be thoughtful and organized in such a way that they'll prove successful in making an impact and I don't know if the boycott proposed in the first post could work. Still, if the thread creator truly feels that passionately about the matter, he should organize a boycott amongst like-minded people. Apparently that will be difficult considering the general reception to the idea in this thread.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

So one man has an opinion, and then loosely associates himself with one of the best XBLA games of all time, and now we should boycott because we don't agree with his ideas?

Fuck that.

There's clearly a boycott against READING THE FUCKING THREAD going on here.

 

[Mercury Fred]

So one man has an opinion, and then loosely associates himself with one of the best XBLA games of all time, and now we should boycott because we don't agree with his ideas?

*ahem*

To repeat, an opinion is not the same thing as an organized, highly funded campaign to not block the granting of rights, but to strip individuals of rights they already legally had.

So yeah, get this through your thick fucking skulls.

 

[mavs]

First of all, gay rights are far more important than the legalization of weed. Such matters like getting fucked up are trivial in comparison.

That said, my views are extremely consistent politically. I do not believe art, whether current or past, should be held accountable for the personal demons of their authors. Something that is good, is good. And I am not going to prevent myself from enjoying them because of that.

Instead, if it really is offensive, I could donate to charity. Which will do a lot more good than not buying the product will.

Not all art is informed the same way by the authors. A painting or a book like Brave New World might not carry all the baggage of the author to the fore. A rock concert, or Rosemary's Baby, or a game/book like this which has the shadow of a civil struggle lurking in the background makes it pretty hard to forget the author as a person.

 

[Big-E]

Not arguing for or against it being a valid analogy, but I have to say: It's essential to life as you know it and the level to which you currently live yours. It's not essential to life as a whole.

:lol You got to be kidding me. You honestly think that comparing buying a 1200 space bucks game is equivalent to buying a utility that allows you to see in the dark, cook and preserve your food, warm your water. I want this to be clear as this is what you are agreeing is a valid analogy.

 

[elrechazado]

*ahem*

You're quite the classy advocate, and I'm sure your well reasoned style of discussion will lead many to agree with you.

 

[Calcaneus]

My extreme example was simply to make a point. That there is comes a point when people are no longer willing to give something up to support the cause. The OP and others in this thread who are boycotting this game are claiming the moral high ground, when in reality they are doing very little to support gay-rights.

These small insignificant actions are hardly worth noting, let alone making a thread over. And feeling proud about them is insulting to those who make real contributions and make real sacrifices for the cause. Similar to people who buy a $10 rubber bracelet to show off what causes they support. The tiny amount of money you gave is hardly significant, when the real reason they purchased the bracelet was to feel good about themselves and show off that they support a good cause. In reality they do little at all to support it.

If you really care about a cause and want to help it, it is extremely unlikely that you will be able to make any significant contribution without some form of sacrifice. (be it monetary, time, possessions, reputation etc.) Boycotting Shadow Complex is not a sacrifice :lol

I already said that boycotting a video game isn't really a sacrifice at all, and of course it would be silly to just not buy Shadow Complex and think you are doing the gay rights movement a big favor or something. The boycott, going by the posts of people who are for it, is more about simply not supporting someone who funds abhorrent causes rather than making a huge difference.

 

[Spoo]

There's clearly a boycott against READING THE FUCKING THREAD going on here.

Yeah, I read the OP, and I voiced my opinion. Sorry, guess that's not allowed. I'm not reading 18+ pages of people bitching about why gays are good/bad, or Card should go eat a cock.

 

[Timber]

But there is no evidence that a single penny from this game is going towards the opposition to gay rights other than the fact that someone involved has been known to give money to anti gay marriage supporters. There is no evidence that the purchase of this game will have any effect whatsoever on the advancement of gay rights and it seems kind of ludicrous to think that the two are linked in anything but the most abstract ways.

There is also no possible way for us to find out where his imbursements end up. And in light of this, having even a shadow of a doubt is enough for some not to buy the game.

Also, I adressed this in an earlier post which, given the speed at which the thread is moving, I can't fault you for not having read. Card is a famous figure, and it's the sales of his products that have made him famous. His fame has given him a platform to express hateful rhetoric. Can you really blame people for not wanting to contribute in the slightest to this?

 

[kai3345]

OP is a dumbass.

He's a homophobe, so what? I guarantee that his views on gays had zero effect on whatever he contributed to the game.

Too many people's valuable time, money and skills went into creating the game to let it all go to waste.

 

[ghostmind]

Wait people are arguing that electricity is not essential to life today? Really? Really? This thread is officially off the deep end. I can not believe people are defending that analogy.



Good post. You have been the most level headed person here.

Says the king of level headed responders...

 

[Mercury Fred]

You're quite the classy advocate, and I'm sure your well reasoned style of discussion will lead many to agree with you.

Re: people that post absurd stuff and willfully miss the point over and over (ie the poster that I quoted myself to): To quote Barney Frank, "trying to have a conversation with you would be like trying to argue with a dining room table. I have no interest in doing it."

 

[truly101]

Just curious, but was this issue ever raised with Advent Rising?

EDIT: I think its also bad form to call the OP a dumbass just because he wanted to bring OSC's views to light, some do have the right to find that stuff objectionable, and if they don't want to support anything he is associated with, that's their choice.

I myself am boycotting this year's Madden game and all NFL related things because they allowed Mike Vick back in the league and he's a dog killer and I won't sponsor anything he may be associated with........


OK not really.

 

[Big-E]

Says the king of level headed responders...

Just because I am the furthest thing from level headed doesn't mean I can't see it when its in front of me.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Yeah, I read the OP, and I voiced my opinion. Sorry, guess that's not allowed. I'm not reading 18+ pages of people bitching about why gays are good/bad, or Card should go eat a cock.

I don't think I even have the energy to type this again.

No one is saying he should not have a right to express what he thinks, people are saying they don't want to support that. Are you that simple that you can not even conceive of a world where people don't want to give their money to a man that is actively trying to stamp out something they believe in? Is there no room in your life for people disagreeing by voting with their dollars?

I am honestly sick of people misrepresenting this argument. If you're going to post, learn what people are saying before you start spazzing the fuck out.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I don't think the core discussion is why he and others (me) think the thread ranks amongst GAFs worst.

It's the vapid, thoughtless responses that makes it so.

The worst threads are the ones that don't have a reason to exist at all, whereas the premise of the thread is a discussion that is certainly worth having. It's not really that difficult to sort out who hasn't got a clue, because they already have "banned" tags.

 

[soldat7]

If buying this game for $15 makes you feel uncomfortable because OSC is going to get some of it, donate another $15 to a gay rights organization.

The universe is balanced.

Or donate more.

 

[elrechazado]

Re: people that post absurd stuff and willfully miss the point over and over (ie the poster that I quoted myself to): To quote Barney Frank, "trying to have a conversation with you would be like trying to argue with a dining room table. I have no interest in doing it."

Demonizing people who disagree with you is always fun. They are "wilfull" and "dumb fucks" and all that other useful invective. Re: Barney Frank - That's a pretty pathetic quote for someone who usually manages to be witty. Was it supposed to be funny or clever?

 

[FoneBone]

Just curious, but was this issue ever raised with Advent Rising?

Not sure. But Card's gotten more publicly anti-gay since then, and that game didn't have the political subtext of empire.

 

[jay]

My extreme example was simply to make a point. That there is comes a point when people are no longer willing to give something up to support the cause.

The OP and others in this thread who are boycotting this game are claiming the moral high ground, when in reality they are doing very little to support gay-rights.

Those are two separate points. You tried to wield the truth that life isn't black and white as some weapon to prove your second point.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Just curious, but was this issue ever raised with Advent Rising?

Scott was brought in at the end of Advent Rising, but no. Advent Rising also pre-dates Prop 8, the Ornery Rants (his column about how liberalism and homosexuality is destroying America and how an armed revolution might soon be needed), his Empire series, and his position on the board of the National Organization of Marriage.

 

[shintoki]

I did not know this. I did not know he was even writing for the game. I've read two of his books before in High School and thought he was a shitty writer. That is my experience with him.

Did I buy the game? Yes. Would I reconsider it if I knew this prior. Indeed, but I don't really regret it. If I based decisions on where the money was going to. I don't I would be spending any money even pay my taxes. The guy sounds like absolute trash, so I wouldn't mind seeing a boycott either. :lol

 

[kodt]

I already said that boycotting a video game isn't really a sacrifice at all, and of course it would be silly to just not buy Shadow Complex and think you are doing the gay rights movement a big favor or something. The boycott, going by the posts of people who are for it, is more about simply not supporting someone who funds abhorrent causes rather than making a huge difference.

I didn't mean to single you out either, my response was to those in general in the thread. And many of them were saying they would not buy it because some of that money would in turn go to OSC who would in turn use it for his anti-gay rights agenda.

I believe Big-E said several times that it doesn't matter that he is against gay rights, but that he actively supports those who wish to prevent or remove gay-rights. By that logic you do think you are making a difference. I would say you really are not and making a big deal out of this is just an attempt to make your self look or feel good for doing essentially nothing.

Again this isn't targeted at you, but the boy-cotters in general.

Those are two separate points. You tried to wield the truth that life isn't black and white as some weapon to prove your second point.

I see what your saying but I think my point still stands. I am not saying that you must give up everything for gay-rights or otherwise nothing at all. But I am equating boycotting this game to doing nothing at all.

 

[Zzoram]

I'm not buying because I'm not interested.