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SNES vs Genesis Sound

K

Krejlooc

Banned
Shadoken said:
Genesis games had better OST. The sound chip on the SNES is probably better though , most games on it had a more orchestral feel. Something the genesis couldnt do.
Click to expand...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MbyPP9Wahc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQtIZR467Zo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUmXhuma2XY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIw6qetdhVk

This is coming out of a real Sega Genesis. This is what the Genesis sounds like when it's not limited by the small storage size of commercial cartridges.

The Genesis could produce all kinds of music.

EDIT: As comparison, here is the same track. One limited to the 8 MB of the standard Pier Solar cartridge, then followed up with the "unlimited" space the PCM CD affords

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dudBuSkj_QY

Pier Solar is the only game that pushes the Genesis' audio hardware to the very limits, which makes sense since Sega audio god TmEE worked on the game.

Outside of Demoscene and Pier Solar, people honestly have no idea the sorts of amazing things the Genesis YM2612 could produce.
 
P

Polioliolio

Member
Krejlooc said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MbyPP9Wahc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQtIZR467Zo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUmXhuma2XY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIw6qetdhVk

This is coming out of a real Sega Genesis. This is what the Genesis sounds like when it's not limited by the small storage size of commercial cartridges.

The Genesis could produce all kinds of music.

EDIT: As comparison, here is the same track. One limited to the 8 MB of the standard Pier Solar cartridge, then followed up with the "unlimited" space the PCM CD affords

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dudBuSkj_QY

Pier Solar is the only game that pushes the Genesis' audio hardware to the very limits, which makes sense since Sega audio god TmEE worked on the game.

Outside of Demoscene and Pier Solar, people honestly have no idea the sorts of amazing things the Genesis YM2612 could produce.
Click to expand...



Impressive stuff! And somehow completely devoid of empty tin can farts.

But most games sound like robot farts.
And I know that might sound old to people, but I just think it's so hilarious I can't stop saying it.. I think it was on a retronauts or some other egm/1up crew related podcast where I first heard it, then later heard it on the 8-4 podcast again recently.. I just cracked up. It was so spot on.

I also feel some people don't really get the robot farts thing.. Here's a video that sort of highlights some of that common flatulence of the Genesis

It has a certain nostalgia to it, but even as a kid I did feel that generally, Genesis music sounded hollow, metallic, and I guess, a little shrill. Not all games sounded that way, but quite a lot of them did.. And I'm not excusing SNES's sound in comparison. There was a lot of lousy sounding stuff on that too.

I think the point someone made about how people like the NES sound but not the Genesis sound was quite interesting. NES sound chip is definitely more primitive, but for some reason more inviting to my ears.
 
K

Krejlooc

Banned
If the Genesis sounded like robot farts, then I postulate that the SNES sounded like robotic queefs. All hissy and muffled.

lmao did I really just type that?
 
T

TrickyDaddy

Banned
SNES. No contest. When I first saw and heard SMW as a kid, I thought the sound was a generation ahead of what I used to hear on my Genesis.
 
C

Celine

Member
D

DC R1D3R

Banned
say what you wanna say, because both consoles had games that will go down in history for their soundtracks. but imo, any game yuzo koshiro laced his beats on were just from another planet.

bare knuckle 1,2 and 3 were pretty much life changing for me!
 
H

hodgy100

Member
Krejlooc said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MbyPP9Wahc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQtIZR467Zo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUmXhuma2XY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIw6qetdhVk

This is coming out of a real Sega Genesis. This is what the Genesis sounds like when it's not limited by the small storage size of commercial cartridges.

The Genesis could produce all kinds of music.

EDIT: As comparison, here is the same track. One limited to the 8 MB of the standard Pier Solar cartridge, then followed up with the "unlimited" space the PCM CD affords

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dudBuSkj_QY

Pier Solar is the only game that pushes the Genesis' audio hardware to the very limits, which makes sense since Sega audio god TmEE worked on the game.

Outside of Demoscene and Pier Solar, people honestly have no idea the sorts of amazing things the Genesis YM2612 could produce.
Click to expand...

but pier solar is just playing cd tracks, and the sega cd has a whole bunch of extra audio hardware in it to allow for that. tis not really comparable.
 
S

Starwolf_UK

Member
2 discussions, I'm hitting myself in confusion here.
Celine said:
I'm confused.
Aren't those track played from the CD?

TmEE is indeed very talented.
Click to expand...
The data is being streamed from the CD but the Mega Drive sound chip is playing the music.

hodgy100 said:
but pier solar is just playing cd tracks, and the sega cd has a whole bunch of extra audio hardware in it to allow for that. tis not really comparable.
Click to expand...
It is not redbook audio and doesn't use the additional sound hardware of the Mega CD. Pay attention to the...the other thread?
Krejlooc said:
Sonic CD and Silpheed and Popful mail play PCM through the Sega CD's RF5C164 PCM chip, not through the Genesis YM2612. Pier Solar is playing PCM through the Genesis' YM2612. The PCM you cited isn't being played by the Genesis.



Pier Solar's larger cart size has nothing to do with the music being played. The streaming PCM used by Pier Solar could have been used by any Genesis game.
Click to expand...
 
H

hodgy100

Member
Starwolf_UK said:
2 discussions, I'm hitting myself in confusion here.

The data is being streamed from the CD but the Mega Drive sound chip is playing the music.


It is not redbook audio and doesn't use the additional sound hardware of the Mega CD. Pay attention to the...the other thread?
Click to expand...

I stand corrected. fair enough then :)
 
E

Easy_D

never left the stone age
Now I wonder what the SNES would be able to pull off if games weren't restricted by cart sizes because those Pier Solar tracks are absolutely amazing, you'd barely be able to tell it was the Megadrive sound chip doing all of that. The electric guitar in the boss track beats the shit out of any electric guitar I've heard on both SNES and the Megadrive
 
L

lazygecko

Member
I've already had my wall of text sessions in that other thread... But I think this is something that bears repeating.

Using ports as some kind of irrefutable scientific proof that one system is technically superior to the other is a terrible idea. There are so many (mostly human) factors at work that you're not accounting for. That goes not just for sound chips but hardware in general. It's like using the PS3 version of Skyrim as "proof" that the Xbox 360 is technically leagues ahead of the PS3.
 
C

Celine

Member
Easy_D said:
Now I wonder what the SNES would be able to pull off if games weren't restricted by cart sizes because those Pier Solar tracks are absolutely amazing, you'd barely be able to tell it was the Megadrive sound chip doing all of that. The electric guitar in the boss track beats the shit out of any electric guitar I've heard on both SNES and the Megadrive
Click to expand...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgVpa4-InIM

(although not nearly as good quality during gameplay)
 
M

Mael

Member
Easy_D said:
Now I wonder what the SNES would be able to pull off if games weren't restricted by cart sizes because those Pier Solar tracks are absolutely amazing, you'd barely be able to tell it was the Megadrive sound chip doing all of that. The electric guitar in the boss track beats the shit out of any electric guitar I've heard on both SNES and the Megadrive
Click to expand...

We had glimpses with Tales of Phantasia, game was even using surround sound and all.
Seriously...
And holy hell that video of snes ultimate sound is like music to my hears!
 
K

Krejlooc

Banned
hodgy100 said:
but pier solar is just playing cd tracks, and the sega cd has a whole bunch of extra audio hardware in it to allow for that. tis not really comparable.
Click to expand...

That's not how is working. This isn't Redbook audio nor is it using any of the Sega cd sound hardware. This is streaming on being played through the Sega Genesis ym2612. This is the Genesis making music.
 
K

Krejlooc

Banned
Easy_D said:
Now I wonder what the SNES would be able to pull off if games weren't restricted by cart sizes because those Pier Solar tracks are absolutely amazing, you'd barely be able to tell it was the Megadrive sound chip doing all of that. The electric guitar in the boss track beats the shit out of any electric guitar I've heard on both SNES and the Megadrive
Click to expand...

The snes is limited by the amount of ram it has to load samples into and the permanent, poorly implemented low pass noise filter. The snes doesn't generate it's audio, it plays samples. The reason the genesis can sound so rich and full is because it's actually generating frequency modulation. Think of it as the difference between scaling a 720p image to 1080p, and rerendering a scene at 1080p directly.

Emulators actually make the snes sound better than it sounds with real hardware because they can remove the low pass noise filter and play back samples at higher than possible bitrates.
 
E

Easy_D

never left the stone age
Krejlooc said:
The snes is limited by the amount of ram it has to load samples into and the permanent, poorly implemented low pass noise filter. The snes doesn't generate it's audio, it plays samples. The reason the genesis can sound so rich and full is because it's actually generating frequency modulation. Think of it as the difference between scaling a 720p image to 1080p, and rerendering a scene at 1080p directly.

Emulators actually make the snes sound better than it sounds with real hardware because they can remove the low pass noise filter and play back samples at higher than possible bitrates.
Click to expand...

I thought the SNES chip could generate audio on its own though?
IIRC Lavos screech noise and the cool stereo wave noise is generated by the SNES chip

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpaJulksCik
 
ReBurn

ReBurn

Gold Member
SNES had objectively better sound hardware, but the quality of the music was really determined by the skill of the composer. Revenge of Shinobi had awesome driving music with great riffs for an early Genesis game. Very skillfully done. Streets of Rage 2 was great as well.

On the SNES side I think that ActRaiser was phenomenal. Made great use of the hardware.

Really, there are great examples on both systems and there are awful examples.
I think both were capable of great sound and music.
 
ReBurn

ReBurn

Gold Member
Krejlooc said:
Again, this is like saying pianos are objectively better instruments than guitar. What metric are you using to form your objective analysis?
Click to expand...

Raw technical specs. FM synth technology was considered outdated compared to PCM when SNES released. SNES had more hardware audio channels and twice as much audio RAM.

But as the rest of my post said, the quality of the sound in games depended more on the skill of the composer.
 
K

Krejlooc

Banned
ReBurn said:
Raw technical specs. FM synth technology was considered outdated compared to PCM when SNES released. SNES had more hardware audio channels and twice as much audio RAM.

But as the rest of my post said, the quality of the sound in games depended more on the skill of the composer.
Click to expand...

Lol fm synth is outdated? Again, this is like saying sample keyboards made guitars outdated. You are aware that fm synth is still being created, right? And that the genesis could play pcm audio as well?
 
E

Easy_D

never left the stone age
vio said:
Some more Amiga music.
Body Blows
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRc3SKoOWLM

Body Blows Galactic
www.neogaf.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=124910915

Slam Tilt (mean machines)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=HVkKh6jxPHQ#t=57

Flashback
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=qHf22UhCnVE#t=24


Stardust
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_dTcd0ToMI
Click to expand...

Body Blows reminds me of: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJknBqi_g1o (Man playing that game was always hype as fuck thanks to them using that song)
 
D

Datschge

Member
Krejlooc said:
The snes is limited by (snip) the permanent, poorly implemented low pass noise filter.
Click to expand...
The SNES' APU actually doesn't contain any low pass filter. That's the effect of the non-standard Gaussian interpolation used (combined with the usually low sample rates of the samples due to the little RAM). The DSP also contains a (fully configurable 8 tap) FIR filter for echo, its use is fully up to the games though.

Krejlooc said:
The snes doesn't generate it's audio, it plays samples.
Click to expand...
It can also generate white noise on any and all 8 channels (commonly used for SFX).
 
E

Easy_D

never left the stone age
vio said:
You mean this...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=WvTm_BhZdOE#t=10
Click to expand...

I thought that was obvious enough, just wanted to stay semi-on topic by posting NHL 96 SNES version ;)

Tain said:
Those Pier Solar music examples are insane.



preach
Click to expand...

Castlevania 4 has atmosphere, but other than that, yeah, Bloodlines is better in every way. (Also the first Castlevania score by Michiru Yamane)

Edit: I find myself thinking that the Genesis probably could have done a better job with: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZON1ryN5xlM
 
K

Krejlooc

Banned
Datschge said:
The SNES' APU actually doesn't contain any low pass filter. That's the effect of the non-standard Gaussian interpolation used (combined with the usually low sample rates of the samples due to the little RAM). The DSP also contains a (fully configurable 8 tap) FIR filter for echo, its use is fully up to the games though.
Click to expand...

Whether it's an actual, traditional hardware LPF or not, the effect is the same: clubbed, muted, hissy audio across all output.

It can also generate white noise on any and all 8 channels (commonly used for ).
Click to expand...

Ya I clarified that the snes could generate noise.
 
D

Datschge

Member
Krejlooc said:
Whether it's an actual, traditional hardware LPF or not, the effect is the same: clubbed, muted, hissy audio across all output.
Click to expand...
The effect is not due to the hardware but due to the limited space for samples. blargg's SNES demo mentioned before is actually clean 16bit 32kHz music representing the quality of the SNES' DAC without any further downgrade of the sound quality. It achieves this by writing the uncompressed music data directly into the echo buffer which is then played back. This is possible since the RAM is shared for all kind of data, program, music, sample data as well as the echo buffer.

Edit: A direct recording of said demo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_60V8UdYEY
 
G

GenG3000

Member
The console with best sound will be the one to provide more options to the composers. Genesis was amazing for synth, punchy and upbeat music, but ultimately SNES offered almost unlimited possibilities for composition and the one who pushed music and sound expression beyond the limited scope of the Genesis. Obviously, most third party games did sound better in Genesis, because the SNES ports were outsourced and done without trying to learn what the system could do. Compare what third parties did at launch with the F-ZERO soundtrack, which is still amazing today (dat bass).

Many of my favourite soundtracks are in the SNES. Almost real life sounding music, orchestral composition taking advantage of nuance to create emotion. Nobuo Uematsu, Koichi Sugiyama, Yasunori Mitsuda, Koji Kondo, Yoko Shimomura, Kenji Ito, David Wise. Megaman X, Kirby, the groovy Earthbound soundtrack, the Secret of Mana series, the Kirby games, Tales of Phantasia.

Also the sound library improved with the time. Late games like the Donkey Kong Country games, Dragon Quest VI, III and Seiken Densetsu 3 had some of the best sampled instruments out of the SNES catalogue. Listen to this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iu2PU5Oc82w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f114tCFlZ5g

It is true, though, that the SNES sounded muffled through TV speakers compared with the crisp Genesis sound.
 
M

Mael

Member
Easy_D said:
I guess, not very familiar with the series :p.
Click to expand...

It's a sorta sequel to Rocket Knight that people with only a SNES envied their Mega Drive owning neighbors ;)
It was out on SNES and Megadrive, let's just say that if the Megadrive had a better soundchip than the SNES it certainly wasn't showing there.
Game was a fucking masterpiece, the music was simply awesome.

Easy_D said:
Edit: I wonder if Secret of Mana could have sounded like this if the CD add-on had been made.

(Best song of the entire SNES library here
Click to expand...

It probably wouldn't have sounded like that with the game running, it would probably be closer to the samples we got in Dawn of Mana.
And seriously the music you gave is really awesome (but not my fav :p)
 
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