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SNES vs Genesis Sound

A

andymcc

Banned
Mael said:
It's a sorta sequel to Rocket Knight that people with only a SNES envied their Mega Drive owning neighbors ;)
It was out on SNES and Megadrive, let's just say that if the Megadrive had a better soundchip than the SNES it certainly wasn't showing there.
Game was a fucking masterpiece, the music was simply awesome.
Click to expand...

They're not even the same game though. Genesis is Sparkster: Rocket Knight Adventure 2. SNES is simply Sparkster.
 
M

Mael

Member
andymcc said:
They're not even the same game though. Genesis is Rocket Knight Adventure 2: Sparkster. SNES is simply Sparkster.
Click to expand...

Deceptive marketing is indeed deceptive, to say the least Rocket Knight Adventure 2: Sparkster wasn't missed at all while people were playing Sparkster.
Wolf or Pigs, who cares as long as we were tearing shit up :p
 
A

andymcc

Banned
Mael said:
Deceptive marketing is indeed deceptive, to say the least Rocket Knight Adventure 2: Sparkster wasn't missed at all while people were playing Sparkster.
Wolf or Pigs, who cares as long as we were tearing shit up :p
Click to expand...

I mean, at the end of the day, SNES Sparkster is still not nearly as good as RKA....
 
D

dr. apocalipsis

Banned
jett said:
Do you? You described a stream of a live orchestra recording as a collection of "repetitive 8bit samples."
Click to expand...

Because that is what it is, not a stream or anything.

Demo is using a group of easily loopable 8-bit samples. No buffer or real time decompression schemes involved. For that, it is using full access to all system bandwidth resources.

Nope, not impressed. Just another proof of how Snes terrible bottlenecks affects every single element performance. With that demo you can see how, even with all resources, Snes can't feed its own DAC properly so it could work into its own specs.
 
H

Herne

Member
The first model of the Mega Drive had terrible, terrible audio output. Listening to the scratchy explosions in Desert Strike... ugh! I can still hear them. Otherwise I didn't have a problem with what sound the machine was putting out.

SNES, though, had such a distinctive sound, and is instantly recognisable and so iconic because of it. Much prefer it because of that.
 
A

andymcc

Banned
Herne said:
The first model of the Mega Drive had terrible, terrible audio output. Listening to the scratchy explosions in Desert Strike... ugh! I can still hear them. Otherwise I didn't have a problem with what sound the machine was putting out.

SNES, though, had such a distinctive sound, and is instantly recognisable and so iconic because of it. Much prefer it because of that.
Click to expand...

Uh the audio output of the original mega drive is objectively superior...
 
C

Celine

Member
dr. apocalipsis said:
Because that is what it is, not a stream or anything.

Demo is using a group of easily loopable 8-bit samples. No buffer or real time decompression schemes involved. For that, it is using full access to all system bandwidth resources.

Nope, not impressed. Just another proof of how Snes terrible bottlenecks affects every single element performance. With that demo you can see how, even with all resources, Snes can't feed its own DAC properly so it could work into its own specs.
Click to expand...
That's because it is a demo meant to show off the best music quality possible (32khz with 16 bit samples but compressed to 8 bit to double the song length) without using any additional chip (on a 32Mbit rom).
As it is it isn't usable on a game but it sure is impressive the quality achieved.
 
P

protomouse

Member
FM synthesis does a few things and does them really well. Faithful emulation of acoustic instruments is not one of those things.

Sample synthesis is far more versatile, but was really held back by cartridge limitations and the SPC chip itself.

The definitive Genesis soundtrack for me is Doom. Yes, I know Doom 32X sucked ass. But this is what it could have sounded like if the developers had properly sequenced the songs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brBQVcf37Xc

Raw brutality. Game-ass game music that we were used to from the 8-bit days. While the SNES sample tech has been all but relegated and long since surpassed, FM synthesis lives on in chiptunes as a sound more iconic than the sometimes muffled and overly reverberated sounds of the SNES. That's where the Genesis really shines.

Still, the SNES wins by a landslide from the sheer breadth of sounds it was able to produce. Nothing ever tops the Mana soundtracks.

Seiken Densetsu 3 OST - 51 - Electric Talk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4V2g4tXYxeg
 
M

Michael F. Assbender

Banned
I think people are looking in the wrong direction for their comparisons. Instead of focusing on music (where ridiculous arguments like synth vs. orchestral keep popping up), why not focus on voices?

This is actually trickier than it sounds, since a lot of SNES games that had voice tracks didn't have those same tracks in their Genesis counterparts. For instance, ClayFighter for SNES opened with a fully voiced intro song, while the Genesis version just had the music with no lyrics.

Or take Mortal Kombat III for both consoles (you can check the first two MKs as well, but they're missing a lot of voice tracks on Genesis. Part 3 is still missing voices on Genesis, but has more than the first two). The grunts, screams, and voices are much clearer on SNES. The Genesis version just doesn't add up.

Same goes for Street Fighter II. SNES killed Genesis in voices here too.

I'm not just picking and choosing here either. I honestly can't think of a single game where voice effects were stronger in the Genesis version than in the SNES version. I'm more than happy to be proven wrong though, so feel free to give examples.

In the end, both consoles had great games with great music. But if the question is which console had the superior sound hardware, the proof is in the voices. Music quality is in the ear of the beholder, but a shitty voice is a shitty voice.
 
A

andymcc

Banned
plop said:
I think people are looking in the wrong direction for their comparisons. Instead of focusing on music (where ridiculous arguments like synth vs. orchestral keep popping up), why not focus on voices?

This is actually trickier than it sounds, since a lot of SNES games that had voice tracks didn't have those same tracks in their Genesis counterparts. For instance, ClayFighter for SNES opened with a fully voiced intro song, while the Genesis version just had the music with no lyrics.

Or take Mortal Kombat III for both consoles (you can check the first two MKs as well, but they're missing a lot of voice tracks on Genesis. Part 3 is still missing voices on Genesis, but has more than the first two). The grunts, screams, and voices are much clearer on SNES. The Genesis version just doesn't add up.

Same goes for Street Fighter II. SNES killed Genesis in voices here too.

I'm not just picking and choosing here either. I honestly can't think of a single game where voice effects were stronger in the Genesis version than in the SNES version. I'm more than happy to be proven wrong though, so feel free to give examples.

In the end, both consoles had great games with great music. But if the question is which console had the superior sound hardware, the proof is in the voices. Music quality is in the ear of the beholder, but a shitty voice is a shitty voice.
Click to expand...

This has been addressed before in this thread about the sample quality in SNES stuff but it seems you're glossing this over (or flat out ignoring Gecko's and other's posts) for the sake of your argument.
 
M

Michael F. Assbender

Banned
andymcc said:
This has been addressed before in this thread about the sample quality in SNES stuff but it seems you're glossing this over (or flat out ignoring Gecko's and other's posts) for the sake of your argument.
Click to expand...

I didn't see their posts. I have more to do than just read 11 pages worth of bitching over long-dead consoles.

And unless their argument does something to erase what my ears are hearing clearly in the videos linked, the arguments don't really stand up.

But whatever. It's all old news and subjective arguments. I'm going to continue believing that the SNES had the better sound chip (because I have ears). Meanwhile, you and others can believe otherwise. I'll still love you. Forever.
 
K

Krejlooc

Banned
andymcc said:
This has been addressed before in this thread about the sample quality in SNES stuff but it seems you're glossing this over (or flat out ignoring Gecko's and other's posts) for the sake of your argument.
Click to expand...

To repeat the argument, the problem is always storage space for the genesis. The genesis had no hardware for decompressing pcm, so it was stored uncompressed in the binary. That made pcm expensive for the genesis, so devs would lower the bitrate to make the audio smaller. Provided enough storage space, the genesis (and sega master system, actually) could produce crystal clear pcm. Again, I hate using it as a catch all example but its such a good one - lots of the bgm in pier solar is pcm. It sounds incredible when space isnt a limiting factor.

EWJ did the same thing, although being limited to a 24(?) Meg cart meant the samples were of a lower quality than the incredible samples of pier solar.

Sega should have looked into developing an ASIC to place into carts for hardware decompression imo.
 
L

lazygecko

Member
The only thing you are proving with your observation is that one version of a game has better implementation of voices than the other. And voices are no different from any other PCM samples so for all intents and purposes the discussion should be about that. The quality varies wildly across different games which is usually down to the style of coding on the developer's part. Can be anywhere from scratchy as fuck to crystal clear.

Please, please just stop trying to use ports as proof of inherent system capabilities. It's basically troll science.

It's pretty much like the CD naysayers in the early days of the format in the 80's. They weren't actually wrong about CD often sounding pretty crappy compared to analog formats. But that wasn't an inherent problem with CDs. It was a problem with people not yet knowing how to properly handle things like DACs, amps, and mastering onto the digital format.
 
K

Krejlooc

Banned
plop said:
I didn't see their posts. I have more to do than just read 11 pages worth of bitching over long-dead consoles.

And unless their argument does something to erase what my ears are hearing clearly in the videos linked, the arguments don't really stand up.

But whatever. It's all old news and subjective arguments. I'm going to continue believing that the SNES had the better sound chip (because I have ears). Meanwhile, you and others can believe otherwise. I'll still love you. Forever.
Click to expand...

What a passive agressive post. Here is exactly what you're looking for

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MbyPP9Wahc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQtIZR467Zo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUmXhuma2XY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIw6qetdhVk

These are all pcm, same as the speech you're citing. You'll find that they're crystal clear in playback.
 
T

televator

Member
Herne said:
The first model of the Mega Drive had terrible, terrible audio output. Listening to the scratchy explosions in Desert Strike... ugh! I can still hear them. Otherwise I didn't have a problem with what sound the machine was putting out.

SNES, though, had such a distinctive sound, and is instantly recognisable and so iconic because of it. Much prefer it because of that.
Click to expand...

You have no idea what you are talking about. The Model 1 is THE genesis with the discrete YM2612 chip.
 
E

Easy_D

never left the stone age
protomouse said:
FM synthesis does a few things and does them really well. Faithful emulation of acoustic instruments is not one of those things.

Sample synthesis is far more versatile, but was really held back by cartridge limitations and the SPC chip itself.

The definitive Genesis soundtrack for me is Doom. Yes, I know Doom 32X sucked ass. But this is what it could have sounded like if the developers had properly sequenced the songs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brBQVcf37Xc

Raw brutality. Game-ass game music that we were used to from the 8-bit days. While the SNES sample tech has been all but relegated and long since surpassed, FM synthesis lives on in chiptunes as a sound more iconic than the sometimes muffled and overly reverberated sounds of the SNES. That's where the Genesis really shines.

Still, the SNES wins by a landslide from the sheer breadth of sounds it was able to produce. Nothing ever tops the Mana soundtracks.

Seiken Densetsu 3 OST - 51 - Electric Talk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4V2g4tXYxeg
Click to expand...

Thanks for posting the Doom stuff, the Megadrive Grit fits it like a glove.
 
D

Datschge

Member
PCM on Genesis is comparable to GBA if freed from space limitation (both use 8 bit output and typically rely on uncompressed samples and software mixing). Honestly the FM part is much more interesting, and that (OPN2) is the small brother of the vastly superior OPM (used in many arcades and Sharp X68000). The greatest home console synthesizer is easily the YMF292 (SCSP) used in Sega Saturn with its 32 channel PCM/FM sources.
 
Sapiens

Sapiens

Member
There's no doubt that the best of the Megadrive absolutely creamed the SNES, but SNES was no slouch when the right developers were on board.
 
A

Azure Phoenix

Member
Herne said:
The first model of the Mega Drive had terrible, terrible audio output. Listening to the scratchy explosions in Desert Strike... ugh! I can still hear them. Otherwise I didn't have a problem with what sound the machine was putting out.
Click to expand...
Sorry, but no, you are completely and utterly wrong. The original Genesis 1 has by far the best sound output of any model short of a full CCAM modded Mk.2 system, it's the gold standard that all revisions and modifications are compared against precisely because it has crystal clear output with rich bass. Only the VA7 (super late revision) Mk.1 had horrible sound output.

A very rough comparison between the model 1 and 2 system that doesn't take into account various subtle output differences between the revisions can be found here.
 
U

Uncle Rupee

Banned
Sapiens said:
There's no doubt that the best of the Megadrive absolutely creamed the SNES, but SNES was no slouch when the right developers were on board.
Click to expand...

Actually there's a lot of fucking doubt, otherwise no one would be having this conversation. As far as I'm concerned the only reason people still argue about whether the Genesis was superior to the SNES is because of some ill-placed nostalgia. The SNES is so far ahead of the Genesis in the sound department that it makes the Genesis sound like a fart going through a fan.

Please show me a Genesis game that can compete with the depth, variety, and instrumental sounds in any of the following OSTs:

Super Castlevania IV
Mega Man X
Final Fantasy 3
Chrono Trigger
Secret of Mana
Actraiser
Tales of Phantasia (opening theme song with singing)

You can't. I'm sure you'll probably try to say something like Streets of Rage, but it simply doesn't compare. Sorry.
 
entremet

entremet

Member
I've always hated that tinny sound that came from the Genesis. Just not my thing. The SNES Soundchip was amazing.

Uncle Rupee said:
Actually there's a lot of fucking doubt, otherwise no one would be having this conversation. As far as I'm concerned the only reason people still argue about whether the Genesis was superior to the SNES is because of some ill-placed nostalgia. The SNES is so far ahead of the Genesis in the sound department that it makes the Genesis sound like a fart going through a fan.

Please show me a Genesis game that can compete with the depth, variety, and instrumental sounds in any of the following OSTs:

Super Castlevania IV
Mega Man X
Final Fantasy 3
Chrono Trigger
Secret of Mana
Actraiser
Tales of Phantasia (opening theme song with singing)

You can't. I'm sure you'll probably try to say something like Streets of Rage, but it simply doesn't compare. Sorry.
Click to expand...

To add to that list:

Donkey Kong Country 1/2
Yoshi's Island
Super Metroid
Plok
 
L

lemon__fresh

Member
I feel like the amount of time spent in arcades during the CPS-1 era can influence appreciation for the genesis' bassy FM synth. Both consoles took different approaches, unsurprisingly it comes down to a matter of preference.

Also helps if you can find a model 1 genesis with the discrete yamaha chip, the youtube videos don't do it justice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lXhq66CFS4
 
N

Nanashrew

Banned
Uncle Rupee said:
Actually there's a lot of fucking doubt, otherwise no one would be having this conversation. As far as I'm concerned the only reason people still argue about whether the Genesis was superior to the SNES is because of some ill-placed nostalgia. The SNES is so far ahead of the Genesis in the sound department that it makes the Genesis sound like a fart going through a fan.

Please show me a Genesis game that can compete with the depth, variety, and instrumental sounds in any of the following OSTs:

Super Castlevania IV
Mega Man X
Final Fantasy 3
Chrono Trigger
Secret of Mana
Actraiser
Tales of Phantasia (opening theme song with singing)

You can't. I'm sure you'll probably try to say something like Streets of Rage, but it simply doesn't compare. Sorry.
Click to expand...

Hey now, Phantasia is cheating since it's using new and very large 48mb cartridge for all that neat stuff. It is a marvel though, Star Ocean also used that stuff too. Only like three games on the SNES used that 48mb chip and there's nothing larger than that on the system.

The whole fall out of Wolf Team, Namco, Telenet and tri-Ace is an interesting one.
 
U

Uncle Rupee

Banned
entrement said:
I've always hated that tinny sound that came from the Genesis. Just not my thing. The SNES Soundchip was amazing.
To add to that list:

Donkey Kong Country 1/2
Yoshi's Island
Super Metroid
Plok
Click to expand...

True, there are many others that I could list as well, the point is made.

lemon__fresh said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogHpm0BwCPU
Click to expand...

That sounds so cheesy to me. If you want to hear Koshiro at his 16-bit best try Actraiser's opening stage.

Nanashrew said:
Hey now, Phantasia is cheating since it's using new and very large 48mb cartridge for all that neat stuff. It is a marvel though, Star Ocean also used that stuff too. Only like three games on the SNES used that 48mb chip and there's nothing larger than that on the system.

The whole fall out of Wolf Team, Namco, Telenet and tri-Ace is an interesting one.
Click to expand...

Cheating? If I don't have to buy an add-on to enjoy it, it's kosher as far as I'm concerned.
 
U

Uncle Rupee

Banned
lemon__fresh said:
That's cool, matter of preference. I prefer the more pop/hiphop sound to orchestral, I like music that makes me move.
Click to expand...

Koshiro was so liberated by the SNES soundchip that he didn't even bother trying to do a decent orchestral score for the Oasis / Thor games. And you can tell he probably would have wanted to, since he didn't do a synthy pop type of OST for them either. They're horribly ambient.
 
C

commish

Jason Kidd murdered my dog in cold blood!
Uncle Rupee said:
Actually there's a lot of fucking doubt, otherwise no one would be having this conversation. As far as I'm concerned the only reason people still argue about whether the Genesis was superior to the SNES is because of some ill-placed nostalgia. The SNES is so far ahead of the Genesis in the sound department that it makes the Genesis sound like a fart going through a fan.
Click to expand...

When I first saw this thread title, I thought, "How does this get beyond 2 posts since the SNES is clearly superior?" I preferred the Genesis growing up, but I can admit that the SNES sound is just better.
 
L

lemon__fresh

Member
Uncle Rupee said:
Koshiro was so liberated by the SNES soundchip that he didn't even bother trying to do a decent orchestral score for the Oasis / Thor games. And you can tell he probably would have wanted to, since he didn't do a synthy pop type of OST for them either. They're horribly ambient.
Click to expand...

He was so liberated by the SNES sound chip that it led him to make worse music later on? You're losing me.
 
L

lemon__fresh

Member
commish said:
When I first saw this thread title, I thought, "How does this get beyond 2 posts since the SNES is clearly superior?" I preferred the Genesis growing up, but I can admit that the SNES sound is just better.
Click to expand...

Really depends on what you're after... And thus the thread will go around in circles.
 
S

sniperpon

Member
Genesis sound chip is my favorite of all time. Synthy, metallic sound is wonderful.

SNES is too soft sounding for my taste.
 
IrishNinja

IrishNinja

Member
I don't know what's better: moving the goalposts to voice (then ignoring the people who addressed that), or pretending Koshiros best work was on actraiser. Thread delivers!
 
Y

Yes Boss!

Member
IrishNinja said:
I don't know what's better: moving the goalposts to voice (then ignoring the people who addressed that), or pretending Koshiros best work was on actraiser. Thread delivers!
Click to expand...

Damn, not really followed this thread. But, Actraiser really is my favorite Yuzo Koshiro score. BAR NONE.
 
A

andymcc

Banned
We've done it. We're back at the point where we are comparing a few marquee SNES titles that are universally acclaimed to disposable ports and licensed games on the Genesis.

Well done, guys.

Yes Boss! said:
Damn, not really followed this thread. But, Actraiser really is my favorite Yuzo Koshiro score. BAR NONE.
Click to expand...

It's great. It's in my top five of his.

Uncle Rupee said:
That sounds so cheesy to me. If you want to hear Koshiro at his 16-bit best try Actraiser's opening stage.
Click to expand...

*blasts the tinny, scratchy sampled kazoo symphony that is known as Link to the Past's Kakariko Village*

Hell yeah man, this ain't cheesy at all.
 
s_mirage

s_mirage

Member
entrement said:
I've always hated that tinny sound that came from the Genesis. Just not my thing. The SNES Soundchip was amazing.
Click to expand...

I've never understood the view that it's tinny. The MD/Genesis was capable of producing crystal clear highs and deep bases, while the SNES almost always sounded muffled.
 
entremet

entremet

Member
Sonic 3 and SoR2 were amazing on the Genesis, however.

Konami's Genesis stuff was great too.

Sonic 3 is still my favorite 16bit OST.

But I just preferred the SNES stuff more in general.
 
S

sörine

Banned
Is it weird that I still prefer NES to either in general? Game Boy, SMS and MSX had some great soundtracks too. Journey to Silius, Phantasy Star, Zelda II, Metroid II, Mega Man 2-4, Treasure of Usas, Castlevania, Akumajou Densetsu, Dragon Slayer IV, Illusion City, Blaster Master, Ducktales, Shatterhand, etc, etc. That's stuff I find myself always going back to.

8-bit > 16-bit
 
A

andymcc

Banned
sörine;125090693 said:
Is it weird that I still prefer NES to either in general? Game Boy, SMS and MSX had some great soundtracks too. Journey to Silius, Phantasy Star, Zelda II, Metroid II, Mega Man 2-4, Treasure of Usas, Castlevania, Akumajou Densetsu, Dragon Slayer IV, Illusion City, Blaster Master, Ducktales, Shatterhand, etc, etc. That's stuff I find myself always going back to.

8-bit > 16-bit
Click to expand...

i never knew how much i needed a game in my life until now

holy shit
 
B

bwahhhhh

Member
the Genesis could do several styles of music (especially drums/bass/guitar/synth, some organ) very well, with high fidelity, and a lot of oomph. The Genesis itself was the instrument.

the SNES could obviously do many more (any, really, including ambient, which made it great for RPG soundtracks) styles of music decently, though sounding heavily compressed and muffled, with a ton of reverb.

I never did figure out which one I prefer. So I'll just say usually the Genesis for action games, and the SNES for RPGs.

sound effects are where the SNES really outshined the Genesis.
 
K

Krejlooc

Banned
Uncle Rupee said:
Actually there's a lot of fucking doubt, otherwise no one would be having this conversation. As far as I'm concerned the only reason people still argue about whether the Genesis was superior to the SNES is because of some ill-placed nostalgia. The SNES is so far ahead of the Genesis in the sound department that it makes the Genesis sound like a fart going through a fan.

Please show me a Genesis game that can compete with the depth, variety, and instrumental sounds in any of the following OSTs:

Super Castlevania IV
Mega Man X
Final Fantasy 3
Chrono Trigger
Secret of Mana
Actraiser
Tales of Phantasia (opening theme song with singing)

You can't. I'm sure you'll probably try to say something like Streets of Rage, but it simply doesn't compare. Sorry.
Click to expand...

So are we supposed to ignore that Gecko Yamori ported many tracks from Mega Man X to the Genesis and they blow the SNES versions away?
 
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