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[out0v0rder]

There was subliminal messages during the bubbleshow that triggered him

 

[DrArchon]

Ehh... but Tatooine is on the outskirts controlled by the Hutts. They probably didn't see a lot of Jedi, nor much of the clone wars at all. It makes sense that the people out there would be disassociated with them.

A random junk shop dealer on Tatooine knew about Jedi mindtricks and knew that they wouldn't work on him.

 

[VistraNorrez]

Yeah, the idea that Han Solo doesn't believe in the force makes no sense when you figure that less than 2 decades before ANH there was a galaxy spanning war where the Jedi were central figures in.

Star Wars as a whole makes so much more sense when you just ignore the prequels.

The galaxy is a huge place and there were something like 10,000 Jedi. There's a good chance most people never met one. Add decades of propaganda and information suppression and it's pretty believable.

 

[Felix Lighter]

This is the biggest failure of these bad movies. The only reason to have the prequels was to show the transition of Anakin to Darth Vader and they pretty much left that to the last half hour of the 3rd movie with a ridiculously abrupt switch from angsty teenager to child mass murderer. I also expected the transition from man to cyborg was a result of fight after fight with countless jedi as he hunted them down one by one but nope, one stupid move and a single slash of Obi Wan's lightsaber did the trick.

 

[The Elite]

if mace would have had palpatine stand trial......this shit never would have happened as Anakin would have believed the Jedi were not corrupt and did things normally. That moment right there was the whole breaking point to him.

Yup. It didn't help that Anakin needed Palpatine as well. Anakin was willing to turn him over but also wanted Palpatine alive for his alleged knowledge of bringing people back to life.

Han's furry life partner literally knew Yoda.

Han has no idea what Chewbacca is saying. He makes it up as he goes along.

 

[Fury451]

The problem is Lucas had the Jedi be FAR too buddy-buddy with the senate. They have their temple right next to them ffs. It would've worked if the Jedi were far more secretive and worked outside the jurisdiction of the republic. Would've also made the massive mistrust of them by the senate far more plausible.

Exactly. They would've been directly witnessed by any delegation that was part of the Senate and by extension knowledge of their existence would be available to anyone else that wasn't part of the Senate and wasn't on an isolated world.

Even if there are worlds but had not heard of them, anybody with delegates would know they exist.

To top it all off, unless the battle between the Separatists and the Republic was a lot smaller and more isolated than we were led to believe, surely many people would have seen Jedi fighting on the front lines or leading the troopers into battle.

 

[Sephzilla]

Yeah, the idea that Han Solo doesn't believe in the force makes no sense when you figure that less than 2 decades before ANH there was a galaxy spanning war where the Jedi were central figures in.

Star Wars as a whole makes so much more sense when you just ignore the prequels.

Han not believing in the Jedi literally makes no sense when you take the prequels into account.

• The Jedi were buddy buddy with the government less than 20 years prior (and Han was alive then)
• In the speach where Palpatine formally makes The Empire he straight up says the Jedi attacked him
• Chewbacca literally knew Yoda
• Han is from one of the core worlds in the galaxy. Not some distant backwater planet where Jedi were less likely to be

 

[scorcher59]

your guess is as good as mine, it was pretty much the whole point of the prequel films, yet if i had to pinpoint it i guess it was that half-hearted "what have i done" after saying "fuck you samuel l jackson"

 

[Defuser]

"from my point of view, the Jedi are evil."

Can't believe he said that with a straight face after slaughtering children.

 

[Kor of Memory]

Han not believing in the Jedi literally makes no sense when you take the prequels into account.

• The Jedi were buddy buddy with the government less than 20 years prior (and Han was alive then)
• In the speach where Palpatine formally makes The Empire he straight up says the Jedi attacked him
• Chewbacca literally knew Yoda
• Han is from one of the core worlds in the galaxy. Not some distant backwater planet where Jedi were less likely to be

Is there anymore to Han not believing the Jedi than some passing statement in ANH? I mean, could he have just been being coy about it?

 

[foxuzamaki]

When I got the DVD all those years ago of SW ep 3 I remember going through all the featurettes and one thing that always stuck to me is that I believe it was Lucas himself that said the bad guys never see themselves as the bad guy, I don't think Anakin ever really considered himself a bad guy until later in his life when people he actually cared about provided voices of reason

 

[DoctorFling]

Don't worry, they'll probably release a series of twenty novels to explain the shit Lucas didn't.

 

[Sephzilla]

Is there anymore to Han not believing the Jedi than some passing statement in ANH? I mean, could he have just been being coy about it?

He reaffirms he used to not believe in Jedi or The Force during The Force Awakens

 

[VistraNorrez]

This is the biggest failure of these bad movies. The only reason to have the prequels was to show the transition of Anakin to Darth Vader and they pretty much left that to the last half hour of the 3rd movie with a ridiculously abrupt switch from angsty teenager to child mass murderer. I also expected the transition from man to cyborg was a result of fight after fight with countless jedi as he hunted them down one by one but nope, one stupid move and a single slash of Obi Wan's lightsaber did the trick.

There's a lot to criticize the prequels about without making things up. Anakin's turn started in TPM. He was taken from his Mother, initially rejected for his training, and then the Jedi who was going to train him was killed. Not a good start. In AotC he starts having terrible dreams about his mother's fate and falls into romatic love with a woman when that's forbidden by his Jedi code. He finds his mother who dies in his arms and taps into his anger as a result. In RotS he once again has nightmares about a loved one and it's near impossible for him to talk to anyone about it. The galaxy is falling apart and one of his most trusted mentors is actually a Sith Lord. The setup is all there for a believable fall. The execution of course leaves a lot to be desired.

 

[Soapbox Killer]

That's the thing about "seduction", it can happen right in plain sight and none be aware of it.

 

[Neff]

Good people committing acts they know are wrong or bad hinges on justification. Throughout Clones and Sith, and even The Phantom Menace to a far lesser degree, Anakin is making justifications (most of them orchestrated by Palpatine/Sidious) which give him the motive to go against the way life has told him to be. By the time he's christened Darth Vader, he's ready to follow Palpatine's instruction (even though he's still questioning the means- "What have I done?"), because the world as he sees it will prosper under him, rather than continue to cause the kind of grief he's suffered under the Senate and the Jedi. By the end of Sith, he's completed the journey to being utterly consumed by evil and self-loathing. All because Palpatine wanted a better breed of disciple.

Shame, really.

 

[Felix Lighter]

There's a lot to criticize the prequels about without making things up. Anakin's turn started in TPM. He was taken from his Mother, initially rejected for his training, and then the Jedi who was going to train him was killed. Not a good start. In AotC he starts having terrible dreams about his mother's fate and falls into romatic love with a woman when that's forbidden by his Jedi code. He finds his mother who dies in his arms and taps into his anger as a result. In RotS he once again has nightmares about a loved one and it's near impossible for him to talk to anyone about it. The galaxy is falling apart and one of his most trusted mentors is actually a Sith Lord. The setup is all there for a believable fall. The execution of course leaves a lot to be desired.

Up to the point when he decided it was time to kill all the children, his troubled childhood resulted in some angstiness, trouble following authority. He had one moment prior that hinted to his rage, which was the revenge killing for his mother. However, killing those responsible for his mother's death isn't in the same league as massacring a school full of innocent children.

 

[Ushojax]

The turn simply doesn't work, the movie shows him being tricked into becoming Darth Vader rather than someone who believes in the Empire and thinks it will bring justice to the Galaxy.

On paper the ingredients were all there. He was a child slave on Tatooine, his mother was killed by savages in a system outside of the Republic, the JedI ended up being a repressive group of stupid dickheads rather than wise monks like Qui-Gon. All those things could have lead perfectly into the monster of the OT who is obsessed with bringing order to the Galaxy, order that would mean shitholes like Tatooine could not exist and sanctimonious douchebags like the Jedi would have no authority. Unfortunately George Lucas wrote 3 bad scripts that not only failed to properly characterise Anakin but also made the mistake of separating Darth Vader from Anakin.

Instead of being a noble Jedi who chose a dark path, he is a tragically stupid monster who is unable to see through the obvious lies of Palpatine and then "dies" and has his body possessed by Darth Vader. He was murdering children well before Palpatine told him to (see sand people in Episode 2) so the whole arc of the character is wrong. Anakin should only have become a monster after he wakes up in the suit and learns Padme has died because of him, blaming the Jedi for his family's death and resolving to exterminate them while bringing peace and justice to every system in the Galaxy by ensuring Palpatine rules with an iron fist.

 

[Knuckle Sandwich]

They flipped the evil switch when he saved Palp from Mace.

He should have turned evil because he decided galactic peace is only possible through an iron fist but George Lucas is kind of a dumbass.

 

[GaimeGuy]

The galaxy is a huge place and there were something like 10,000 Jedi. There's a good chance most people never met one. Add decades of propaganda and information suppression and it's pretty believable.

The Jedi Council served as the military advisors to Palpatine, and the generals of the Army of the Republic.

 

[FunkyPajamas]

He killed a shitload of tuskan raiders just out of revenge.

He's probably always been kind of evil.

Yeah, I was going to point this out. I assumed that's when he went from not being 100% with the Jedi code (secretly loving Padme, fearing for his mom, etc) to actually murdering.

 

[CapitalismSucks DonkeyBalls]

When he murdered all those Tusken Raiders for killing his mom.

 

[antonz]

Padme's death when he is informed of it is basically when he gives up at least according to the Novel.

He realizes he got played like a fool and everything he ever cared about is gone and all he has left is wrinkly ass Palpatine. He tries to kill Palpatine with the force but due to his injuries is basically a shell of his former self so just submits to the life left before him.

Its pretty obvious though Anakin has been fucked in the head long before that

 

[VistraNorrez]

Han not believing in the Jedi literally makes no sense when you take the prequels into account.

• The Jedi were buddy buddy with the government less than 20 years prior (and Han was alive then)
• In the speach where Palpatine formally makes The Empire he straight up says the Jedi attacked him
• Chewbacca literally knew Yoda
• Han is from one of the core worlds in the galaxy. Not some distant backwater planet where Jedi were less likely to be

Han was at most 10 years old when that happened. His experience was probably minimal with politics and interactions with the Jedi. Chewbacca is like 200 years old, even without the canon 2 decade gap, he would have more than likely been able to tell Han about Jedi regardless of the prequel information. Nonetheless over 2/3 of Han's life he would never have seen anyone use the Force.

Here are his quotes on the Force by the way:

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

"Kid, I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other, and I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen *anything* to make me believe that there's one all-powerful Force controlling everything. 'Cause no mystical energy field controls *my* destiny. It's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense."

Neither of those quotes say he's never heard of the Force just that he doesn't believe it's real thing.
Which isn't crazy at all. Even if he met Jedi, what are the chances they used the Force around him especially in any way he would recognize it.

 

[MC Safety]

Basically, we're both kind of wondering at what point does Anakin actually become evil?

His character through II and III, as well as Clone Wars seem to be about doing what he thinks is the right thing. Maybe breaking/bending some rules, but for a greater good kind of thing. Usually in an effort to save lives.

Did you guys miss the part where Anakin confesses to mass murder in Attack of the Clones?

 

[CloudyTuba]

His character through II and III, as well as Clone Wars seem to be about doing what he thinks is the right thing. Maybe breaking/bending some rules, but for a greater good kind of thing. Usually in an effort to save lives.

Now, obviously some shit went down with Padme, and Sheev tells Anakin that he killed her, and this fucks him up.

So what exactly happens here? Does he figure, "Oh, guess Palpatine was actually Evil, but he's all I've got, so I'll be evil to?"

By the time he shows up in Rebels, he's very willing to burn an entire shanty town to the ground in an effort to get the Rebels to react to it. He obviously knows at this point that he's not fighting the good fight. He's using ruthless evil tactics to win a small conflict. He shows no mercy, even deflecting a laser shot straight back at one of the main characters faces (Super dissapointed she just shrugged this off, btw).

I still can't figure out in-canon how Anakin could possibly go from "The Jedi arent always right and it frustrates me" to "I guess murdering children and my wife is okay." In all these years I've only been able to come up with one explanation, and it's little more than Tales From My Ass:

The red eyes. After Anakin has done enough bad shit, his eyes turn red like Palpatine's. I can only assume this happens when enough of the dark side if flowing through you. And I think it's a sign of something more.

Luke and Obiwan: "You mean it controls your actions?" "Partially. But it also obeys your commands."

I think when Anakin, in a moment of panic and desperation killed Mace Windu, he opened the floodgates. The very nature of the dark side is controlling, overpowering, and passionate. I think when the dark side got inside, it bent him to its will. The red eyes are an indication that he is now completely under the control of the dark side. He's intoxicated with it.

And like a drunk person thinks they are making good decisions and later wakes up horrified with what they have done, I think Anakin too thinks he is in control when really he is under the influence. The dark side is the illusion of power when in reality the user is powerless. Another simile would be a drug user who thinks they are in control when really they are a slave to the drug. He isn't in his right mind anymore.

It isn't until Luke's "intervention" that Anakin achieves a moment of clarity and is able to realize what has happened to him.

 

[Kor of Memory]

I feel like a lot of people are trying to respond to the title, instead of the actual OP.

I'm not looking for the moment Anakin joined the dark side.

I'm looking for when Anakin lost his morals.

Through all of the prequels and clone wars Anakin's actions could be considered justifyable. We can tell that he thinks he's doing the right thing, even if it involves doing something bad to get it done.

But at some point it stopped being about doing the right thing. At some point he started killing off officers of the empire when they made a mistake. At some point he started burning down random towns in hopes of getting rebel attention. These actions are no longer for a greater good. These actions are plainly evil.

I'm trying to figure out when Anakin made THAT switch.

Edit:

Padme's death when he is informed of it is basically when he gives up at least according to the Novel.

He realizes he got played like a fool and everything he ever cared about is gone and all he has left is wrinkly ass Palpatine. He tries to kill Palpatine with the force but due to his injuries is basically a shell of his former self so just submits to the life left before him.

Its pretty obvious though Anakin has been fucked in the head long before that

This is more what I'm getting at. This is pretty much the answer I'm looking for.

 

[MattKeil]

"from my point of view, the Jedi are evil."

Can't believe he said that with a straight face after slaughtering children.

At the very least I'd say if you do something that makes your eyes turn red and yellow you probably want to re-evaluate your decisions in the last few hours or so.

 

[Log4Girlz]

Perhaps it would have been interesting if Palpatine could seriously manipulate one's force visions and shit and made him see Jedi do things they didn't and Anakin was all like, gotta fought fire with fire and started turning. Nooooope.

 

[Sephzilla]

What's said is that, and I can't believe I'm about to defend Attack of the Clones, Lucas actually set up some good seeds for Anakin's turn in Episode 2. They touched upon how Anakin thinks some of the Jedi's rules are outdated and how he feels like he's being held back. They touched upon how Anakin thinks the republic is flawed and how a more authoritative government would be better. And they show him tapping into the Dark Side and liking it. It's probably the only thing Episode 2 does well, but it does set up Anakin transforming into Vader pretty well. Too bad Lucas about-faced on that.

 

[VistraNorrez]

Up to the point when he decided it was time to kill all the children, his troubled childhood resulted in some angstiness, trouble following authority. He had one moment prior that hinted to his rage, which was the revenge killing for his mother. However, killing those responsible for his mother's death isn't in the same league as massacring a school full of innocent children.

The Dark Side seduction is quick. Evident by Yoda's quote, "Quicker, easier, more seductive."

He also killed Count Dooku at the start of RotS with little to no prodding from Palpatine.

 

[Jayof9s]

He has problems with the Jedi acting all shady against the Supreme Power of the Republic, at the moment Palpatine was a beloved man in the galaxy.

Then after the reveal it was pretty much "Them or Her" he made his choice, in his mind killing the corrupt Jedi who threw away their beliefs was the right thing to do, and to top that off he would save Padme? bitching.

If we factor in The Clone Wars show, the Jedi were ULTRA shitty with Anakin's apprentice, and they also faked Obi-Wan's death just to win the war...they made him go through hell twice. He was not having a third time.

Yeah, I think watching the Clone Wars CGI series made the transition of Anakin to Darth Vader more believable and subtle.

As the series goes on he gets more ruthless in dealing with the separatists. He is given more and more reason to distrust the Jedi Council. You see him getting more connected with Padme, his apprentice, and Obi-Wan. You see him using dark-force powers at times when he gets enraged.

The movies alone didn't do a very convincing job of showing/explaining how he turned. The show actually did a pretty great job over the... 6? 7? seasons.

Edit: and just saw the other post from the OP. I think it just got to a point where he had done enough bad things that he no longer needed to justify it or convinced himself he no longer did. He supported the empire and the emperor and the peace and prosperity they could give, if those rebels would just stop causing problems. Sacrifices were worth ending the rebellion. After having killed the younglings and thinking he killed Padme it's safe to say he wasn't really concerned with what was right or wrong and had nothing to keep him from just losing himself.

 

[Kor of Memory]

Yeah, I think watching the Clone Wars CGI series made the transition of Anakin to Darth Vader more believable and subtle.

As the series goes on he gets more ruthless in dealing with the separatists. He is given more and more reason to distrust the Jedi Council. You see him getting more connected with Padme, his apprentice, and Obi-Wan. You see him using dark-force powers at times when he gets enraged.

The movies alone didn't do a very convincing job of showing/explaining how he turned. The show actually did a pretty great job over the... 6? 7? seasons.

5 and a half seasons.

Rebels is basically a continuation as well. So another 1 and a half there if you want to add on to it.

 

[xRaizen]

I always assumed that Palpatine ordered him to kill the children simply because they were force sensitive.

Which is still very stupid as they're young, they could still be indoctrinated into the Sith way of life.

 

[Felix Lighter]

I guess in my mind what I had hoped the prequels would have been was:

Movie 1: ]introduction to the good Anakin and jedi in training.
Movie 2: Transition from light side to dark side
Movie 3: Hunting Jedi/Transition from man to machine

 

[Astral Dog]

Yup. It didn't help that Anakin needed Palpatine as well. Anakin was willing to turn him over but also wanted Palpatine alive for his alleged knowledge of bringing people back to life.



Han has no idea what Chewbacca is saying. He makes it up as he goes along.

Palpatine is far too devious for that, it would not worked

 

[LegendofLex]

He's an idealist + egotist. He wants everything to go his way, the right way, and is willing to use his Jedi powers to make things go his way.

He expresses frustration at the Senate for all the political maneuvering that keeps them from getting things done. He'd rather see a strong leader with the proper ideals take control and make people fall in line than all the discord sown by people in the democracy game for their own personal gain.

And he's also afraid of loss thanks to his mommy issues, meaning he takes personal responsibility for everyone and everything around him, which is what drives him to become such a powerful Jedi and decorated warrior. You can see this from the moment he discovers Qui-Gon is a Jedi, since he apparently believes it's the job of a Jedi to fix absolutely everything, even slavery.

When the Jedi are revealed to be just as susceptible to shady backroom dealings as the Senate, and particularly when their advice to him in his time of [perceived] need is [perceived by him as] less than helpful, his loyalty to them dissolves. He then turns to the person who he believes is actually willing to help him: Palpatine.

It's at this moment, when he trust Palpatine completely, that Palpatine reveals that he's actually the Sith Lord the Jedi have been looking for. Anakin knows he should turn him in, but when desperation seizes him, he's willing to turn his back on his Jedi duty based on the splinter of hope Palpatine is offering him - he already doesn't trust the Jedi anyway and knows he'll be thrown out for revealing his relationship with his wife, and at least Palpatine is offering to help... right?

It's in that moment of weakness that he decides to kill Mace to rescue Palpatine, taking the step beyond the point of no return as far as his relationship with the Jedi is concerned. And with nothing more tethering him to the Jedi and their code, in this incredibly vulnerable and broken and desperate state, he's willing to be persuaded to do anything to cling to the one thing he has left - Padme - because he can't bear to lose the last person he believes is on his side.

Meanwhile, Palpatine is also promising him that they'll be able to rid the galaxy of corruption and finally restore peace. It's something he was already in favor of anyway, but now he gets to be the hammer that crushes all the things he felt were getting in the way of his ambition for a better universe - including the Jedi.

And then Obi-Wan, his best friend, turns on him - and, from his point of view, turns Padme against him. Now it's not just that the Jedi make him uncomfortable or are obstacles to his ambitions - his best friend has taken the only thing he cares about from him.

Anakin became evil because all his reasons for being good were stripped away from him, one by one, and he was given reasons (naturally, false machinations orchestrated by Palpatine) to hate everything he ever cared about.

Sadly, this was really poorly depicted in the films.

 

[SolidChamp]

This is the biggest failure of these bad movies. The only reason to have the prequels was to show the transition of Anakin to Darth Vader and they pretty much left that to the last half hour of the 3rd movie with a ridiculously abrupt switch from angsty teenager to child mass murderer. I also expected the transition from man to cyborg was a result of fight after fight with countless jedi as he hunted them down one by one but nope, one stupid move and a single slash of Obi Wan's lightsaber did the trick.

Dat high ground, tho.

 

[Nerdkiller]

Star Wars has forever had a problem in portraying the Jedi and Sith as anything other than black and white. Episode VI in particular had Luke seemingly go down a similar path to where his father had, being more aggressive in his actions and attire (the first time we see him at all in the movie, we see him in all black, force choking Jabba's guards). In the end, at the pivotal moment where we might just see that shade of grey, he just throws down his sword, which I feel just seemed awfully abrupt. Kylo Ren in Episode VII also seemed to suffer from this,

Spoiler

implying that the only thing that keeps him from turning back to the good side is to kill his father.

Now I'm sure that stuff like this will be further expanded in the later movies, but it still goes to show that Star Wars doesn't seem to be interested in building morally complex characters, at least in the mainline features. It's just that Episode III highlights this problem the most.

 

[MC Safety]

I always assumed that Palpatine ordered him to kill the children simply because they were force sensitive.

Which is still very stupid as they're young, they could still be indoctrinated into the Sith way of life.

Star Wars has some conflicting ideas about the bad guys, and I'm not sure if it's ever resolved. I know I have to punch myself for even thinking about it.

In KOTOR (the RPGs), you've got Sith academies and dark Jedi running around all over the place. In Rebels, I think they said the Sith have a rule of two, master and apprentice, no more no less. So maybe the Sith in the movies go by the rule of two and don't want an army of little sith lords in training.

Dat high ground, tho.

The high ground is good ground. I don't know why people get stuck on this.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Due to the horrible writing and directing of Geroge Lucas, the only thing you can really say is THE MOMENT he choose to cut off Mace's arm is the moment the dark side took over in him and he turned pure evil. It was like a lightswitch, instant. No guradual change.

I see it like a light switch that for 2 1/2 movies was just trying to be pushed down wayyyyy to slowly, but the moment it crossed that needed pressure to go down, its an instant pop and its off.

Kinda how I have to see it too, like did something evil now the evil is in me...

 

[Rockandrollclown]

The slaughter of the sand people. That was the point of no return really.

Yup, weird to me that the movie tried to act any different. He walked into a village of primitive aliens and murdered all of them including the women and children. I'm sure most of the village was not complicit in what happened to his mom. For me its dark side turn complete at that point.

 

[Ushojax]

You'd think that once Anakin learns that Palpatine is Sidious, and that he is in league with the Separatists who have been trying to kill his wife for the last 10 years, he might not trust him. But nah, I'll just kill those kids because he told me to, even though he just said he can't actually save people from dying.

 

[Adam Blue]

He's an idealist + egotist. He wants everything to go his way, the right way, and is willing to use his Jedi powers to make things go his way.

He expresses frustration at the Senate for all the political maneuvering that keeps them from getting things done. He'd rather see a strong leader with the proper ideals take control and make people fall in line than all the discord sown by people in the democracy game for their own personal gain.

And he's also afraid of loss thanks to his mommy issues, meaning he takes personal responsibility for everyone and everything around him, which is what drives him to become such a powerful Jedi and decorated warrior. You can see this from the moment he discovers Qui-Gon is a Jedi, since he apparently believes it's the job of a Jedi to fix absolutely everything, even slavery.

When the Jedi are revealed to be just as susceptible to shady backroom dealings as the Senate, and particularly when their advice to him in his time of [perceived] need is [perceived by him as] less than helpful, his loyalty to them dissolves. He then turns to the person who he believes is actually willing to help him: Palpatine.

It's at this moment, when he trust Palpatine completely, that Palpatine reveals that he's actually the Sith Lord the Jedi have been looking for. Anakin knows he should turn him in, but when desperation seizes him, he's willing to turn his back on his Jedi duty based on the splinter of hope Palpatine is offering him - he already doesn't trust the Jedi anyway and knows he'll be thrown out for revealing his relationship with his wife, and at least Palpatine is offering to help... right?

It's in that moment of weakness that he decides to kill Mace to rescue Palpatine, taking the step beyond the point of no return as far as his relationship with the Jedi is concerned. And with nothing more tethering him to the Jedi and their code, in this incredibly vulnerable and broken and desperate state, he's willing to be persuaded to do anything to cling to the one thing he has left - Padme - because he can't bear to lose the last person he believes is on his side.

Meanwhile, Palpatine is also promising him that they'll be able to rid the galaxy of corruption and finally restore peace. It's something he was already in favor of anyway, but now he gets to be the hammer that crushes all the things he felt were getting in the way of his ambition for a better universe - including the Jedi.

And then Obi-Wan, his best friend, turns on him - and, from his point of view, turns Padme against him. Now it's not just that the Jedi make him uncomfortable or are obstacles to his ambitions - his best friend has taken the only thing he cares about from him.

Anakin became evil because all his reasons for being good were stripped away from him, one by one, and he was given reasons (naturally, false machinations orchestrated by Palpatine) to hate everything he ever cared about.

Sadly, this was really poorly depicted in the films.

Great post with a great ending.

It has taken me time (since release) to really understand what was trying to be conveyed, but now I love the prequels.

 

[Duane Cunningham]

Yeah... it's all pretty clumsy with the Jedi being the war generals and all, in the biggest war ever, then 30 years later nobody is familiar with them.

The only way it makes sense to me is if the galaxy at large didn't really believe in them even during their heyday. Like, even during the Clone Wars, people knew the Jedi existed, but only saw them in the news or whatever and the average galaxy citizen thinks they're full of shit. In fact, it all kind of makes more sense if the general public is kind of suspicious of the sudden appearance of the Grand Clone Army (which IS of course, shady as fuck), and then thinks that the senate putting those weirdo "wizard people" in charge of it all is just the icing on the cake.

Hell, the Republic is so stagnant and bureaucratic they couldn't even protect Naboo ten years ago! That young Senator of theirs (who was queen back then) had to slap together an alliance with those frog people on their planet and fight off the Trade Federation herself, because the Senate was too busy bullshitting about bylaws to send them aid! In fact, the only reason the Trade Guild pulled that stunt in the first place is because the Republic taxed the shit out of them until they had no choice but to pull some kind of publicity stunt! I swear, that senate takes years to decide what to have for lunch, but then the second Count Dooku gives people an alternative... well THAT finally gets the Republic's ass moving! Suddenly they pull that bizarre "Grand Clone Army" out of nowhere, and those fucked up devil worshippers who live next to the senate building are in charge of it all?? They're probably the ones pulling the strings anyway.

Maybe Dooku has the right idea. Maybe we SHOULD pull out of the Republic. The Confederacy of Independent Systems is clean, tidy, we can do business, there are no crazy regulations, and none of those weird ass "Jadis" secretly running the show.

(then 30 years later)

... Jedis? Yeah, I remember those weirdos. They're long gone now, thank god. They were the ones pulling the strings during the civil war. They killed Dooku and threw acid or whatever in Palpatine's face. No wonder he's gotten so mean in his old age (... er, don't tell anyone I said that). Those Jedis used to say something about "the Force" or whatever. I don't know, it was all a sham. They're all gone now, Palpatine and his people had to kill them all off when they tried to take over altogether. Good riddance.

...


If the average Galactic Citizen thinks along those lines, it all makes more sense. A guy the age of Han Solo, who wasn't even born yet when the war ended (or was a toddler or whatever), sure as hell wouldn't believe in the Force. Even someone older who DOES remember the Jedi didn't necessarily believe in them back then, much less now.




(Last week I posted this, which was similar... I was just thinking through what the point of view of a Separatist planet would be, and the above post is kind of a continuation of that line of thought, I guess.)

 

[PSqueak]

He didn't accept he was "evil", he just chose the dark side, technically speaking, once he chose he didn't see himself as evil, from his perspective he was doing the right thing, dark side just meant he was willing to cross some lines for what he assumed was the greater good.

It's the same thing Kylo Ren is doing now, he didn't think killing Han was "evil", he thought dying was something Han willingly did for him as an endorsement for him to go full dark side.

 

[Burai]

You'd think that once Anakin learns that Palpatine is Sidious, and that he is in league with the Separatists who have been trying to kill his wife for the last 10 years, he might not trust him. But nah, I'll just kill those kids because he told me to, even though he just said he can't actually save people from dying.

"I pledge myself to your teaching! Best give me that secret to eternal life you told me about."

"Sorry bro, I don't know the secret to eternal life after all. Why not go kill everyone you know and we might find it out later."

"OK."

-------------

"Where's Padme?"

"Sorry bro, turns out you killed her in anger."

"The anger that Yoda and Obi-Wan warned me about? The anger you told me to use?"

"Yup, best go kill more Jedi."

"OK."

--------------

"Bring your secret son before me so I can fuck him up just like you."

"What if he doesn't want to get fucked up?"

"I'll murder him with lightning whilst you watch like I did your friend."

"OK."

----------

The BEST writing.

 

[GaimeGuy]

The turn simply doesn't work, the movie shows him being tricked into becoming Darth Vader rather than someone who believes in the Empire and thinks it will bring justice to the Galaxy.

On paper the ingredients were all there. He was a child slave on Tatooine, his mother was killed by savages in a system outside of the Republic, the JedI ended up being a repressive group of stupid dickheads rather than wise monks like Qui-Gon. All those things could have lead perfectly into the monster of the OT who is obsessed with bringing order to the Galaxy, order that would mean shitholes like Tatooine could not exist and sanctimonious douchebags like the Jedi would have no authority. Unfortunately George Lucas wrote 3 bad scripts that not only failed to properly characterise Anakin but also made the mistake of separating Darth Vader from Anakin.

Instead of being a noble Jedi who chose a dark path, he is a tragically stupid monster who is unable to see through the obvious lies of Palpatine. He was murdering children well before Palpatine told him to (see sand people in Episode 2) so the whole arc of the character is wrong. Anakin should only have become a monster after he wakes up in the suit and learns Padme has died because of him, blaming the Jedi for his family's death and resolving to exterminate them while bringing peace and justice to every system in the Galaxy by ensuring Palpatine rules with an iron fist.

This.

We know that the dark side corrupts and turns you into something twisted, but the person is still the person. Darth Vader and Anakin Skywalker are way too disconnected, and feel more like split personalities than two sides of the same coin.

It doesn't help that we see only a glimpse of Darth Vader in the prequels, near the end of the 3rd film. Anakin should have been established as a Jedi in the first film (with seeds of evil), his fall occurring in the second film, and the fallout from his transition in the 3rd film - fall of the Jedi council, his extermination of nearly all of the top council members and the retrieval of Jedi records (to be used to track down any remaining Jedi by himself, personally), and, of course, his transition to the suit we know and love.

Perhaps the films should have been longer if they also wanted to weave the rise of Palpatine and the fall of the Republic into the narrative (it seems weird that Palpatine kept the Senate in place for 20 years after he became emperor.)

 

[cyberheater]

Good question. It would've been interesting to explore an already adult Anakin, and follow his journey over three films detailing his disillusionment with the Jedi and eventual seduction to the dark side.

But nope, we got the prequels instead

Yep. Total retconning bullshit. I hate it.

 

[Jest Chillin]

I think he realizes he's off the path the moment he sees that Palpatine is a Sith. But at that point he has no choice but to continue out of hope that Palpatine can save Padme. Once she's dead and it's revealed that Palpatine can't bring her back, he's just done trying to fight it and resigned to serve the only Master left, Palpatine.

I think this is also why he tries to turn Luke and tells him they can overthrow Palpatine. Because he "knows" he can't ever be good again but would rather be with his kid than the man who turned him and made him betray and lose everything he ever loved.