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So at what point did Anakin go from "The Jedi are evil" to "I guess I'm evil now"

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Panzon

Member
I would say around the time he killed Mace Windu. I mean, he always had that evil urge in him I think. Like he would use it om impulse during battle or to better his opponents.

But, once he killed Mace (because he wanted Palpatine for his powers to save Padme) I think he realized "well shit, there is no going back from this now"
100% this. Throughout the clone wars you can actually see the signs from early on. Not saying he was evil but you could kinda see that it wouldn't take much to get him to the dark side. He always did what he wanted and even unnecessarily killed sometimes.

I have a problem with the jedi code so can't say I disagree with Anakin's decisions sometimes but orders are orders and too many times he didn't follow them. Of course, that's a different topic altogether
 
Yup. We're talking about a playing field the size of a galaxy. You can grow up and die without ever running into a Jedi. I'm sure entire worlds know them as no more than a myth or a rumour.

Look, the Empire says they're a myth. Who are you to say otherwise?
 

Schlorgan

Member
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It's gonna be great.
https://youtu.be/0248pUAteWk
 

ghostmind

Member
Having Yoda meet Chewbacca was just another in a series of dumb ideas from Lucas to make everyone from the OT connected somehow. Also see Anakin building C-3PO as an example.

Things like this end up damaging the OT, and the series as a whole.

I wouldn't mind if Disney decided to remake the prequels at some point.
 

Schlorgan

Member
It's fairly clear Lucas either didn't watch his own fucking movies while writing the prequels. Or more likely didn't give a shit.

The amount of retcons is ludicrous. Anakin being too young in ROTS compared to his appearance in Jedi. Leia remembering her mother. "Already a great pilot" etc.

Nailed it.

They feel like they were made as quickly as possible to get them out the door, I would guess because Lucas felt that he had lost his relevance. The whole thing feels like an ego project by someone that doesn't care about what he's making, he just wants people to think that he's still "got it."
 
Honestly I don't think it was a good idea trying to turn someone that is considered the "chosen one' into one of the most evil guys in the galaxy within three movies, and one of those movies was when he was just a dumb child.

I'm going to say it's largely due to poor writing on Lucas's part and not because he doesn't care. Some people think they're really good.
 
You're probably spending more time trying to figure out the nuance of the character than Lucas did.

Done. There's never going to be a good and satisfying answer to this because the prequels simply dropped the ball and didn't manage to construct a coherent character arc for Anakin. Despite that being like the whole point of their existence in the first place.
 
Dat high ground, tho.

I wondered why the fuck he jumped literally a Obi-wan!!! this dude could've jumped ANYWHERE!!!(well like a 160-170 degree angle) but no! he had to try to jump right behind Obo-Wan!!

like what the fuck Anakin!? hold dat L...well you can hold it with one hand
 

pgtl_10

Member
Does the animated series count? There was an important part that caused Anakin to turn to the dark side probably well before the movies.
 
It seemed pretty clear to me, Anakin confronts Palpatine on Jedi orders and when Windu goes to kill Palps he kills Windu to keep the option of saving Padme in play. Anakin then literally pledges himself to Palps/dark side to gain the knowledge to then actually save Padme. Where's the confusion exactly? It's a bloody clear tipping point right there in the movie.


That is hilarious in parts.
 
"I pledge myself to your teaching! Best give me that secret to eternal life you told me about."

"Sorry bro, I don't know the secret to eternal life after all. Why not go kill everyone you know and we might find it out later."

"OK."

-------------

"Where's Padme?"

"Sorry bro, turns out you killed her in anger."

"The anger that Yoda and Obi-Wan warned me about? The anger you told me to use?"

"Yup, best go kill more Jedi."

"OK."

--------------

"Bring your secret son before me so I can fuck him up just like you."

"What if he doesn't want to get fucked up?"

"I'll murder him with lightning whilst you watch like I did your friend."

"OK."

----------

The BEST writing.

Oh my god, this is fantastic.
 
Ehh... but Tatooine is on the outskirts controlled by the Hutts. They probably didn't see a lot of Jedi, nor much of the clone wars at all. It makes sense that the people out there would be disassociated with them.

true but there's absolutely no sense of the vast distance that the star wars stories inhabit, thanks to all the hyperspace stuff.
 
It seemed pretty clear to me, Anakin confronts Palpatine on Jedi orders and when Windu goes to kill Palps he kills Windu to keep the option of saving Padme in play. Anakin then literally pledges himself to Palps/dark side to gain the knowledge to then actually save Padme. Where's the confusion exactly? It's a bloody clear tipping point right there in the movie.

It's seemed pretty clear to me the writing was schlock.

Lets start with the premise that there was nothing wrong with Padme. He was warned that his visions would lead him turning to the Dark Side. And guess what? His turn to the Dark Side caused her death after he force choked her when she was near giving birth to his children.

If he does nothing; (1) Padme lives; (2) The Sith Lord is captured; (3) Younglings aren't slaughtered.

Like i said, SCHLOCK!
 
It's seemed pretty clear to me the writing was schlock.

Lets start with the premise that there was nothing wrong with Padme. He was warned that his visions would lead him turning to the Dark Side. And guess what? His turn to the Dark Side caused her death after he force choked her when she was near giving birth to his children.

If he does nothing; (1) Padme lives; (2) The Sith Lord is captured; (3) Younglings aren't slaughtered.

Like i said, SCHLOCK!

My take on that is Palpatine was using his sith powers to implant those dreams pushing Anakin where he wanted him. The same goes for Ani's mother being sold to the raiders etc.
 

MedicUnderFire

Neo Member
The turn simply doesn't work, the movie shows him being tricked into becoming Darth Vader rather than someone who believes in the Empire and thinks it will bring justice to the Galaxy.

On paper the ingredients were all there. He was a child slave on Tatooine, his mother was killed by savages in a system outside of the Republic, the JedI ended up being a repressive group of stupid dickheads rather than wise monks like Qui-Gon. All those things could have lead perfectly into the monster of the OT who is obsessed with bringing order to the Galaxy, order that would mean shitholes like Tatooine could not exist and sanctimonious douchebags like the Jedi would have no authority. Unfortunately George Lucas wrote 3 bad scripts that not only failed to properly characterise Anakin but also made the mistake of separating Darth Vader from Anakin.

Instead of being a noble Jedi who chose a dark path, he is a tragically stupid monster who is unable to see through the obvious lies of Palpatine and then "dies" and has his body possessed by Darth Vader. He was murdering children well before Palpatine told him to (see sand people in Episode 2) so the whole arc of the character is wrong. Anakin should only have become a monster after he wakes up in the suit and learns Padme has died because of him, blaming the Jedi for his family's death and resolving to exterminate them while bringing peace and justice to every system in the Galaxy by ensuring Palpatine rules with an iron fist.

Give me this movie. It is the will of the Emperor.
 
It's seemed pretty clear to me the writing was schlock.

Lets start with the premise that there was nothing wrong with Padme. He was warned that his visions would lead him turning to the Dark Side. And guess what? His turn to the Dark Side caused her death after he force choked her when she was near giving birth to his children.

If he does nothing; (1) Padme lives; (2) The Sith Lord is captured; (3) Younglings aren't slaughtered.

Like i said, SCHLOCK!

My take on that is Palpatine was using his sith powers to implant those dreams pushing Anakin where he wanted him. The same goes for Ani's mother being sold to the raiders etc.

It's a self fulfilling prophecy.

There's nothing to suggest that. Force users have precognitive abilities.

Yes, there is. Yoda says as much in ROTJ.

"Through the Force, things you will see. Other places. The future... the past. Old friends long gone."
 

Vidiot

Member
Killing the bunch of kids felt so completely out of character. It just doesn't seem like something he would have done. Especially when like five minutes before said event he was still good.
 
If anything, the terribleness of Anakin's "transformation" lays bare the woeful inadequacy of using a good vs. evil model for morality.

He has to become evil because the plot demands it. But the work isn't done to make a believable transition from young Jedi Knight to one of the most iconic villains in movie history.

People aren't good or evil. They are products of genetics and their environments. The entire premise of light vs. dark is foreign to our reality. It works in stories with heroes and villains, but when you try to break down their motivations, when you examine it closely, these bold colors and lines of distinction vanish.
 
Point of No Return, is absolutely when Mace Windu dies. There is no question about it. The choice Anakin makes at that point is what shapes the story from that point on.

Either he helps Mace Windu or he helps the Emperor. His act of hesitation sort of showed what was up and the Emperor got to manipulate him for it.

In Episode, when he has political talks with with Padme on Naboo, he sounds like a adolescent learning about politics from the first time. He is impatient, idealistic and thinks "someone" should be in charge who could cut through all the fat cats and their bureaucracy.



It's easy to see what Lucas went for with the trilogy. The idea was not stupid, but it's just not well told. Characters are reduced to talking heads. They say their feelings, they are not shown. This is poor direction and poor storytelling.

"From my point of view, the Jedi are evil" is a damnable line because you would say that to someone else. That is something you write underneath a youtube comment or above a gloryhole at a truck stop. What is more- Lucas should have shown it. The transistion was not gradual, graceful and made sense.
But the entirety of the prequels suffer from pacing issues. Episode 1 is like one long disjointed incohesive music video. It lacks a red cohesive thread that ties the things together like a 3 minute music video. Almost no characters grows, changes or learns anything insightful, and the one emotional and beautiful moment, result in the death of the two only decent characters in the film.



It kills me, because you know that if Lucas had just had that team of skilled writers collaborating with him on the chopping block. Sitting there for six months, killing darlings and kicking with it. But no. Lucas had to be enamored by yes men like Rick McCallum that feeded into his ego. Sitting there on Skywalker Ranch thinking he was gods gift to dramaturgi.
But of course Lucas would have all the confidence in the world. By the 90s he was viewed as one of the greatest filmmakers of all time, having coasted for decades on one film, while most people didnt know he didn't direct ESB and ROTJ. People just assumed that the mans talent existed in infinite proposition in relation to American Graffiti.

Coppola is on record saying that if he hadn't made Star Wars, followed by going home and being a family man (nothing wrong with that) Lucas would have been a much much better director. In that sense, Star Wars hurt his career. It's like a reverse Scorsese, who they say, was so consistently good because he always was snubbed of the Oscar. He has just been in the zone for so long.
 
If anything, the terribleness of Anakin's "transformation" lays bare the woeful inadequacy of using a good vs. evil model for morality.

He has to become evil because the plot demands it. But the work isn't done to make a believable transition from young Jedi Knight to one of the most iconic villains in movie history.

People aren't good or evil. They are products of genetics and their environments. The entire premise of light vs. dark is foreign to our reality. It works in stories with heroes and villains, but when you try to break down their motivations, when you examine it closely, these bold colors and lines of distinction vanish.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely is a saying for a reason. Many real people start on paths thinking that they will do good and slowly start making exceptions to their morals and values until the become pretty horrible in their own right. This is true from hall monitors all the way up to world leaders and has happened many times throughout history.

It doesn't happen that way every time but it does happen.
 
Anakin is written so poorly in Revenge of the Sith. They actually had a good genesis for his dark side turn in Attack of the Clones when he slaughters the sand people and later admits he likes it. Instead Lucas backs down from that and instead has Anakin get tricked into turning, and then has Anakin go from "WHAT HAVE I DONE!?" to slaughtering kids in under 10 minutes.

This.

That's why my mind shatters when I see people say they like RotS more than any OT film or TFA...

All 3 of those films were god-awful.

And I like shitty movies (Johnny Mnemonic is one of my favs).

I just wanted to strangle Anakin through every film. He was written TERRIBLY and his OT version is possibly the most tragic villain in cinematic history.

Lucas is a fucking hack. Or at least became one.
 

Seesaw15

Member
Where does Yoda's quote suggest anything about Palpatine implanting dreams in Anakin's head?

It's not in any of the movies but here's some Wookieepedia backtracking about Sith Magic.
Aside from outwardly-expressed illusions, Sith magicians possessed the ability to create hallucinations within the minds of specifically targeted individuals by summoning their worst fears. After performing a series of intricate hand gestures, a Sith sorcerer was able to reach into a sentient being's mind and call forth that which scared the victim the most.

Its implied that Palpatine is clouding the force during all these movies but he's never shown doing anything so it just makes all the jedi look like idiots.
 
It's not in any of the movies but here's some Wookieepedia backtracking about Sith Magic.


Its implied that Palpatine is clouding the force during all these movies but he's never shown doing anything so it just makes all the jedi look like idiots.

All we needed was like ONE scene of Sidious meditating in a dark room somewhere, then cut to the Jedi council also meditating but with a pained, concerned look on their faces.

BAM, Now we know Sheev is clouding da Force. But, instead we just get Windu telling us that shit.
 

Kathian

Banned
He wants control. Thats where his 'Jedi are evil' schtick comes from. Their more powerful than him. So he turns on them.

Also the force devours him when he's Vadar.
 

Gravidee

Member
It's not in any of the movies but here's some Wookieepedia backtracking about Sith Magic.


Its implied that Palpatine is clouding the force during all these movies but he's never shown doing anything so it just makes all the jedi look like idiots.

The material on that page doesn't seem to fall under canon. The closest thing to Sith magic that we have in the current canon is that ritual that Sidious and Dooku performed in the last arc of TCW when they were trying to deceive Yoda.
 
It's not in any of the movies but here's some Wookieepedia backtracking about Sith Magic.


Its implied that Palpatine is clouding the force during all these movies but he's never shown doing anything so it just makes all the jedi look like idiots.

Thanks for posting that. I've never been that deep into SW canon but I made that assumption personally following Palps/Jedi interactions through this trilogy. Also the Yoda line about dark powers are mysterious, unique and not fully understood etc. I just put my own theory together really but I'm glad to know there is canon behind it. It could have been handled waaay better in the movies. As another post above said, simply show one 5-10 second scene with Palps meditating or implanting the dream. Done.
 

120v

Member
movies didn't do a great job of portraying it, obviously, but my take was that anakin was too passionate about the people he cared about. a lame way of putting it would be "he had too much love" so he went through whatever means necessary

i thought padme dying was kind of a weird mcguffin in bringing him to the dark side, as he foresaw it and it kind of creates a chicken before the egg conundrum. but whatever

i usually defend the prequels but this aspect was hamfisted
 

DrArchon

Member
Its implied that Palpatine is clouding the force during all these movies but he's never shown doing anything so it just makes all the jedi look like idiots.

I get this, but it still makes no sense. How much influence does Palpatine have when it comes to clouding the Force? Surely he can't cloud the Force for every Jedi in the galaxy, right? So when Yoda or Mace or whoever goes to another planet in order to oversee some big battle, wouldn't the Force be unclouded for them? Wouldn't they say "Hey, when we're near the senate, the Force seems diminished. Maybe someone in the senate is a super-Sith!"
 

BFIB

Member
The prequels should have been focused around the Clone Wars. There's no need for Anakins back story, just have him discovered as a hot shot pilot on the outer rim fighting against the Mandalorian Clone Army, who are winning the war against the Republic. Anakin is discovered by the Jedi during the first movie, but Yoda has fears he is too old to begin training. The Jedi have to choice since they are being killed at an alarming rate.

Fill in some gaps, make Anakin likeable, but out for his own interests. You find out that Palpatine in secret had been working with the Mandalorians to line up destroying the Jedi and giving the Mandalorians more control over the outer rim. He also gets in Anakins head that the Jedi are going to turn their back on him since he is exceptionally strong in the force, and fear what he could do to them. He turns, Padme goes into hiding during a scene where Palpatine makes Anakin believe the Jedi killed her and their unborn child.
 
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