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[Kor of Memory]

So just before Force Awakens came out, my wife and I decided to get into Clone Wars. It was great. So great that I no longer see Hayden Christiansen as Anakin, but instead I see his clone wars model.

Now, just two weeks ago we finally got around to watching Star Wars Rebels, and on top of that my wife read "Lords of the Sith".

Basically, we're both kind of wondering at what point does Anakin actually become evil?

His character through II and III, as well as Clone Wars seem to be about doing what he thinks is the right thing. Maybe breaking/bending some rules, but for a greater good kind of thing. Usually in an effort to save lives.

Now, obviously some shit went down with Padme, and Sheev tells Anakin that he killed her, and this fucks him up.

So what exactly happens here? Does he figure, "Oh, guess Palpatine was actually Evil, but he's all I've got, so I'll be evil to?"

By the time he shows up in Rebels, he's very willing to burn an entire shanty town to the ground in an effort to get the Rebels to react to it. He obviously knows at this point that he's not fighting the good fight. He's using ruthless evil tactics to win a small conflict. He shows no mercy, even deflecting a laser shot straight back at one of the main characters faces (Super dissapointed she just shrugged this off, btw).

I guess I'm having a hard time understanding the switch. Sure there are still 15 years of unknown there (I should read Lord of the Sith), but from what my wife has said Lords of the Sith doesn't really answer this question. In fact, you get to see some of his brutality here as well.

Is it really just a "Well, Padme is dead, and she was his anchor, so now he's in Fuck the entire Goddamn universe mode?

 

[Retro]

You're probably spending more time trying to figure out the nuance of the character than Lucas did.

Is it really just a "Well, Padme is dead, and she was his anchor, so now he's in Fuck the entire Goddamn universe mode?

Well, he did murder a shitload of children when he knew she was still alive, so... probably not.

 

[A Link to the Past]

He kind of seems sad while watching the Death Star construction at the end of Revenge of the Sith

 

[Jarmel]

Lucas

 

[Sectorseven]

I mean, he was a creep from the start of Clones when he was trying to watch Padme sleep.

 

[Kor of Memory]

Well, he did murder a shitload of children when he knew she was still alive, so... probably not.

But I understand his logic here. He saw his apprentice forced out of the Jedi for a stupid reason. He saw Mace try to take the law into his own hands. As well as years and years of stupid decisions that didn't seem to be fully in the right.

So he comes to the conclusion that Jedi are "evil" and need purged from the galaxy. Yes, killing children is terrible, but it's one of Anakin's 'For the greater good" moments.

However, at some point killing regular citizens/civilians became okay in order to get to the Jedi. This is where I'm getting stuck.

 

[zeemumu]

He had his initial suspicions but didn't believe that the jedi were 100% evil until he killed Mace Windu because his mind probably needed something to justify his actions. Based on his plan to overthrow Palpatine he was still aware that Palpatine was still evil so he probably assumed that he was the only uncorrupted person left but couldn't do anything to change it until he got more power.

 

[Viewt]

Ultimately, you have to accept that the transition is anything but seamless, and just go along with the poorly-constructed narrative that's become canon. Anakin never really had control of his emotions, and after being groomed by Palpatine for years, his fragile grip on right and wrong was shattered by a perceived betrayal from the Jedi (not giving him the rank of Master, forcing him into a life of secrecy for falling in love, and the BS the Emperor fed him about taking out the Republic).

Basically, there's no "a-ha" moment where his fall to the dark side is satisfying and feels earned. You just have to shrug and say, "OK."

 

[Fj0823]

He has problems with the Jedi acting all shady against the Supreme Power of the Republic, at the moment Palpatine was a beloved man in the galaxy.

Then after the reveal it was pretty much "Them or Her" he made his choice, in his mind killing the corrupt Jedi who threw away their beliefs was the right thing to do, and to top that off he would save Padme? bitching.

If we factor in The Clone Wars show, the Jedi were ULTRA shitty with Anakin's apprentice, and they also faked Obi-Wan's death just to win the war...they made him go through hell twice. He was not having a third time.

 

[yanipheonu]

I just remembered that there is literally a line where Anakin says "from my point of view, the Jedi are evil."

Quality writing.

I mean, I never understood the argument that the Jedi were evil. I think what Lucas was going for was a "democracy and the Jedi council are incompetent and allow bad things to happen, so Anakin finds that evil" thing maybe?

He, uh, isn't a very good writer.

 

[OnPoint]

Does he believe that he's evil? I feel like he's doing what he feels is right. Moreover, right for him? But right nonetheless.

 

[therealist]

Once he embraced the Dark Side he lost the ability to think in a nuanced manner and can only deal in absolutes.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

He killed a shitload of tuskan raiders just out of revenge.

He's probably always been kind of evil.

 

[HTupolev]

He becomes evil at the convenience of the narrative.

 

[-griffy-]

It was in Episode 3 when he leisurely fast walked into Palpatine's office as Palpatine and Mace Windu are IN THE MIDDLE OF FIGHTING TO THE DEATH, and as Anakin is confused and conflicted Palpatine surreptitiously used the Force to crank the "evil dial" on Anakin's back from 3 to 10.

 

[Fury451]

Good question. It would've been interesting to explore an already adult Anakin, and follow his journey over three films detailing his disillusionment with the Jedi and eventual seduction to the dark side.

But nope, we got the prequels instead

 

[Dash_Riprock]

Short answer - Lucas is a shit writer.

Long answer - Lucas has the writing skills of 14 year old first time fanfic writer who still doesn't understand that to get from point A to C you kinda have to show B, or at the very least heavily imply it.

 

[Violence Jack]

He killed a shitload of tuskan raiders just out of revenge.

He's probably always been kind of evil.

This is what I thought his turning point was.

 

[emb]

I wouldn't imagine there being a single point where the character's thinking flipped. All of it was probably along the same lines of 'for the greater good' reasoning.

 

[Kor of Memory]

I just remembered that there is literally a line where Anakin says "from my point of view, the Jedi are evil."

Quality writing.

I mean, I never understood the argument that the Jedi were evil. I think what Lucas was going for was a "democracy and the Jedi council are incompetent and allow bad things to happen, so Anakin finds that evil" thing maybe?

He, uh, isn't a very good writer.

It was a very good example of what should have been a 'show, don't tell' situation.

Anakin makes this claim that is hard for us to swallow. Since we've been following Anakin and Obi-wan for the entire prequel trilogy, and they're Jedis, we naturally see the Jedi as heroes.

It's all the smaller shit from the other Jedi that acts as a catalyst, and as someone else said, the Jedi in clone wars did some super shitty things to Anakin. They basically fucked over his Master, and fucked over his Apprentice. The Jedi basically try to take everyone away from Anakin at some point in time.

 

[Sephzilla]

Anakin is written so poorly in Revenge of the Sith. They actually had a good genesis for his dark side turn in Attack of the Clones when he slaughters the sand people and later admits he likes it. Instead Lucas backs down from that and instead has Anakin get tricked into turning, and then has Anakin go from "WHAT HAVE I DONE!?" to slaughtering kids in under 10 minutes.

 

[Onemic]

But I understand his logic here. He saw his apprentice forced out of the Jedi for a stupid reason. He saw Mace try to take the law into his own hands. As well as years and years of stupid decisions that didn't seem to be fully in the right.

So he comes to the conclusion that Jedi are "evil" and need purged from the galaxy. Yes, killing children is terrible, but it's one of Anakin's 'For the greater good" moments.

However, at some point killing regular citizens/civilians became okay in order to get to the Jedi. This is where I'm getting stuck.

How was killing children for the greater good? Dude just wanted revenge at that point. Tbh it's after that event where he becomes evil.

 

[Zukuu]

To be fair, he was destined to be a sith. Never was anything else possible, since it was dictated by the force.

He was destined to "bring balance" and at that point, Jedis were a much, much bigger force. So it was only natural that he "brings balance" aka killing many Jedis.

 

[Kinyou]

When he cuts Mace Windu's arm off. After that he seems to do whatever the emperor tells him.

If I remember correctly does he not even wonder for a second why Palpatine knows where the separatist leaders are.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

His transition all started in Attack of the Clones. Questioning everything even when it were stupid questions, killing Tusken Raiders, falling in love (lol), all things that go against the Jedi code which Anakin thought was dumb.

 

[Dash_Riprock]

To be fair, he was destined to be a sith. Never was anything else possible, since it was dictated by the force.

He was destined to "bring balance" and at that point, Jedis were a much, much bigger force. So it was only natural that he "brings balance" aka killing many Jedis.

The "2 vs 2" theory was debunked by Lucas himself years ago. The Dark Side/Sith are the imbalance, period.

 

[woxel1]

 

[Pagusas]

Due to the horrible writing and directing of Geroge Lucas, the only thing you can really say is THE MOMENT he choose to cut off Mace's arm is the moment the dark side took over in him and he turned pure evil. It was like a lightswitch, instant. No guradual change.

I see it like a light switch that for 2 1/2 movies was just trying to be pushed down wayyyyy to slowly, but the moment it crossed that needed pressure to go down, its an instant pop and its off.

 

[The Silver]

I mean yeah that's pretty much it, he has nothing to live for now that Padme's gone, all he has is anger and rage left, then you add the dark side which has a corrupting influence and you get Vader. We already saw with the Sand People how easily he can massacre folks, even innocent children, if he lets his anger take hold.

Though the comics show once realizes he Luke is his son he kind of "wakes up" and directs a lot of his anger towards Big Poppa Palps, from then on he works towards overthrowing him.

 

[dity]

Late inset puberty.

 

[Retro]

But I understand his logic here. He saw his apprentice forced out of the Jedi for a stupid reason. He saw Mace try to take the law into his own hands. As well as years and years of stupid decisions that didn't seem to be fully in the right.

So he comes to the conclusion that Jedi are "evil" and need purged from the galaxy. Yes, killing children is terrible, but it's one of Anakin's 'For the greater good" moments.

However, at some point killing regular citizens/civilians became okay in order to get to the Jedi. This is where I'm getting stuck.

See my initial statement; you're trying to sort out the logical reasoning of a character written by George Lucas, a man who's said "I'm not a good writer" and "I don't feel I have a natural talent for it...When I sit down I bleed on the page, and it's just awful."

But if you really want to get into it, he was murdering kids who weren't even Jedi yet... more like.. Jedi pre-schoolers. He was straight up evil at that point, "for the greater good", my ass.

 

[stuminus3]

The problem is George Lucas spent three movies trying to show something that until that point was very easily described in one sentence.

"Anakin Skywalker was a Jedi who lost control and the dark side of the force overpowered him."

Done!

 

[show me your skeleton]

Good question. It would've been interesting to explore an already adult Anakin, and follow his journey over three films detailing his disillusionment with the Jedi and eventual seduction to the dark side.

But nope, we got the prequels instead

the whole pacing is dumb, obi-wan is seen as some weird hippy kook that practicies some dead hocus pocus, yet the jedi were controlling most of the known galaxy about thirty years ago. so stupid.

 

[Sec0nd]

I think it's supposed to be the fact that the dark side of the force corrupts the mind. So it wasn't actually a conscious decision to be evil.

Or something. I dunno...

 

[Gabriel_Logan]

Does he believe that he's evil? I feel like he's doing what he feels is right. Moreover, right for him? But right nonetheless.

It's hard to feel in the right when your taking your orders from a Universal Horror looking monster.

 

[EloquentM]

the whole pacing is dumb, obi-wan is seen as some weird hippy kook that practicies some dead hocus pocus, yet the jedi were controlling most of the known galaxy about thirty years ago. so stupid.

Jedi are a myth

 

[Fury451]

the whole pacing is dumb, obi-wan is seen as some weird hippy kook that practicies some dead hocus pocus, yet the jedi were controlling most of the known galaxy about thirty years ago. so stupid.

I actually never put the timeline together like that, that makes it even more ridiculous.

The Jedi and Sith were spoken of as if they were on the verge of being forgotten legends. But logically many in the galaxy would still remember and probably even personally have seen or known many of them by the point the original trilogy starts.

Yikes

It makes sense in The Force Awakens that many people would think they were just stories bordering on myth because by that point it was essentially just three guys duking it out on an individual level, and it sounds like Luke's efforts to revive the Jedi fell apart before a lot of people knew about any of it.

 

[Anoregon]

Ahh yes, Darth Fuckhands McMike the Wise. He was a good friend.

A good friend.

 

[VistraNorrez]

There is no single moment. Anakin was seduced by the Dark Side. He wasn't exactly thinking clearly or logically. He wanted power and was justifying his own actions to hold onto it. After RotS he had nothing left but being Darth Vader and the power that held. SO he pursued that. Once he found out about Luke that changed things in Vader. In TESB he is very clearly obsessed with Luke. By RotJ Luke was able to pull Anakin back because the power of the Dark Side was ultimately less appealing than the Luke's love.

 

[DrArchon]

the whole pacing is dumb, obi-wan is seen as some weird hippy kook that practicies some dead hocus pocus, yet the jedi were controlling most of the known galaxy about thirty years ago. so stupid.

Yeah, the idea that Han Solo doesn't believe in the force makes no sense when you figure that less than 2 decades before ANH there was a galaxy spanning war where the Jedi were central figures in.

Star Wars as a whole makes so much more sense when you just ignore the prequels.

 

[Killer Queen]

The cut to credits at the end is what gets me.

 

[tearsintherain]

Anakin just wanted to become an assistant manager at Space Hooters, its all a big misunderstanding
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSCm8yAxBr8

 

[The Elite]

I think it's supposed to be the fact that the dark side of the force corrupts the mind. So it wasn't actually a conscious decision to be evil.

Or something. I dunno...

It's quite simple:

- Anakin has visions of Padme dying.
- Anakin is obsessed with trying to save everyone and be the hero. He's obsessed with saving Padme.
- Anakin learns that there is potentially a way to save Padme. The Jedi would forbid it but Palpatine and the Sith would allow it.
- He's conflicted for a short period of time.
- Anakin finally makes a decision and goes with Palpatine. He considers the Jedi not utilizing the full power of the Force to save those they care about as wrong.
Yadda Yadda Yadda
- Anakin kills children.

The idea works in theory but the execution is a complete mess.

Clone Wars does flesh out his various disagreements with the Jedi philosophy.

 

[Sanjuro]

Let me ask my boyfriend Chewbacca.

 

[Kor of Memory]

the whole pacing is dumb, obi-wan is seen as some weird hippy kook that practicies some dead hocus pocus, yet the jedi were controlling most of the known galaxy about thirty years ago. so stupid.

Ehh... but Tatooine is on the outskirts controlled by the Hutts. They probably didn't see a lot of Jedi, nor much of the clone wars at all. It makes sense that the people out there would be disassociated with them.

 

[Dash_Riprock]

Yeah, the idea that Han Solo doesn't believe in the force makes no sense when you figure that less than 2 decades before ANH there was a galaxy spanning war where the Jedi were central figures in.

Star Wars as a whole makes so much more sense when you just ignore the prequels.

The problem is Lucas had the Jedi be FAR too buddy-buddy with the senate. They have their temple right next to them ffs. It would've worked if the Jedi were far more secretive and worked outside the jurisdiction of the republic. Would've also made the massive mistrust of them by the senate far more plausible.

 

[The Elite]

Ehh... but Tatooine is on the outskirts controlled by the Hutts. They probably didn't see a lot of Jedi, nor much of the clone wars at all. It makes sense that the people out there would be disassociated with them.

Yup. We're talking about a playing field the size of a galaxy. You can grow up and die without ever running into a Jedi. I'm sure entire worlds know them as no more than a myth or a rumour.

 

[ViciousDS]

if mace would have had palpatine stand trial......this shit never would have happened as Anakin would have believed the Jedi were not corrupt and did things normally to anakin. That moment right there where Anakin yelled "I need him" and cut off his arm was the whole breaking point to him.

 

[Sylas]

There is no single moment. Anakin was seduced by the Dark Side. He wasn't exactly thinking clearly or logically. He wanted power and was justifying his own actions to hold onto it. After RotS he had nothing left but being Darth Vader and the power that held. SO he pursued that. Once he found out about Luke that changed things in Vader. In TESB he is very clearly obsessed with Luke. By RotJ Luke was able to pull Anakin back because the power of the Dark Side was ultimately less appealing than the Luke's love.

I think it also has to do with the idea of a self-fulfilling prophecy (not the Jedi one, but the idea of forcing yourself into a corner). Anakin was easily convinced that he was evil after all the shit he did. At the time he thought it was for the greater good--and then he was selfish with Obi-Wan he lost because he was fighting for himself, he got cocky.

Then he loses the fight; He's lost everything he cared about and it's because of him. The "NOOOOO!" moment at the end of Episode III, as terrible as it was, kinda implies that he suddenly felt like shit because of what he did. He failed. Doing things for the greater good didn't matter anymore. Clearly his good was not good.

So what was left to him after all that? Sheev, being evil. He did terrible things and he realized that. So he allowed himself to be evil and embraced the dark side. Then the love of his son redeemed him. It becomes clear to Anakin that he didn't necessarily fuck up in so large a way as he might've thought. It's still selfishness, but he brought this man into the world that was able to resist the lure of the dark side.

So he witnesses that goodness can still survive and persevere. He accepts what he did and acknowledges that there's no such thing as being too far gone (which is more or less a theme of Star Wars. Being evil is a choice and being good is a choice) and so he's redeemed.

 

[Anoregon]

Ehh... but Tatooine is on the outskirts controlled by the Hutts. They probably didn't see a lot of Jedi, nor much of the clone wars at all. It makes sense that the people out there would be disassociated with them.

Yup. We're talking about a playing field the size of a galaxy. You can grow up and die without ever running into a Jedi. I'm sure entire worlds know them as no more than a myth or a rumour.

Han's furry life partner literally knew Yoda.