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So uhm
- Thread starter Amir0x
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Slurpy said:
Well, it's worked pretty well so far. When someone goes far enough that I have to show them their boundaries (READ: ACTS OF VIOLENCE AGAINST YOU), nine out of ten times it doesn't happen again. Is that respect? Call it what you like: but you can't allow yourself to get walked all over. Which, judging from the myriad of posts I've read so far in this thread, is a HUGE problem with a great large population of GAF posters. It's not like it exactly surprises me - posting as much as I do on an internet message board about videogames - it's that they expected me to merely allow the violence and the lie without any recourse whatsoever.
There's a few that are more angry with how I reacted with the cops, but my history with them - as well as how they treated me even on this occasion before I said a word - proves always that Pocono Specific cops have not earned any respect.
how have you managed to get as old as you are without learning to cope with all the little injustices and stupidities of family life? i used to get in spats over the big tv (when i was 12), but they never quite required police intervention.
edit: well, in any case it'll be a funny story to tell one day, what with the walking home barefoot and the hitchiking arrest and the bum shoes.
edit: well, in any case it'll be a funny story to tell one day, what with the walking home barefoot and the hitchiking arrest and the bum shoes.
Am I going to have to draw you a venn diagram or something? This is a ridiculous summary of people's critques. Stop it.Amir0x said:
Just to be clear on the earlier stuff, I am sure that you believe everything you're saying. But with everything that's happened, I think that's going to be extremely fogged up and slanted with anger, frustration, rationalization, and perspective. And given how you admitted you acted, it doesn't look good.
drohne said:
Again, it's not the television - it was the lie and subsequent violence. The television shit was as trivial as trivial can get. Who cares about that, except those trying to make it into comedy?
cryptic said:
Seriously. For example, the former District Attorney and judge who prosected my brother and made sure he went to jail for 4 years for shooting someone in the eye with a bee bee gun ended up being a dirty child molestor. And the first time I was ever arrested - for stealing a NesQuik from my job that cost $1.19, the police officer threatened to pull the car over and beat the shit out of my for asking what the status of my then missing sister was (she was found later).
So yeah, I don't have much respect for the "authority" in the Poconos. I think I have my reasons, last night proving it again, but this is all beside the point.
Oldschoolgamer
The physical form of blasphemy
Amir0x said:
I'm sorry, but.. :lol :lol :lol Aside from the fact that you broke the law, and have a disdain towards "authority", that little story made no sense at all. You stole from your job and a cop threatened you because you asked about your missing sister? Just because you asked a simple question?
That case with the DA is mind boggling though.
Rorschach said:He was the judge and the DA on your brother's case?
[edit] Oh I misunderstood because you said "prosecuted" for one and "sentenced" for the other.
Well, specific to my brothers case, it was Mark who pushed so hard as a District Attorney to make an example out of my brothers case (who, in the one good thing he probably ever did in his life, shot Luis Nieves to protect the young baby girl who was in the car with him). He did see my brother as judge twice, but the ultimate sentence was handed out by Judge Vican(?) who took the advice of Mark directly and said so in the comments at his sentencing.
Oldschoolgamer said:
If only I could make up something so clever. But that is exactly what happened. I was going outside to move carts for the supermarket and I "stole" a $1.19 Nesquik because it was ****ing 110 degrees outside and the lines were terrible on Friday in the supermarket. The "undercover" security guy saw me, and called the cops. I was arrested. Along the way to the precinct, he got a hold of my parents. My parents informed him that my sister was missing and that they were currently focusing on that search for the moment, and that they would send someone else for me. In the back of the car, I was unable to hear the exact details through the phone call, so I asked him. i said "what happened to my sister? is she ok?" And he replied, again with no hyperbole, "if you ask me one more question about anything, I am going to pull this car over and beat the shit out of you."
Point blank.
xaosslug said:
My brother was in a gang, not me. The "only' thing I was ever into was abusing pretty much every drug known to mankind. Although, as most of you know, I stopped that many years ago after I got dangerously close to dying from Ecstasy. Recently, VERY recently, I had an "E relapse", but that's a post I made at another forum and don't feel like going over again in this extra-critical environment tonight.
Branduil said:
Well, not that it matters (since I was 16 at the time, and my morals have become a BIT more steadfast since then), but I had told the clerk on line that I'd go back and grab the money for the NesQuik when my break came around. So my intent was to pay for it. But if I had gone to the back room to grab my wallet out of my locker, and waited on line at the time, it would have taken like 30 minutes to get to the cashier, and I probably would have gotten in big trouble with my boss for wasting time.
Of course, when I was caught, I did immediately try to pay him what it was worth - but he didn't buy the excuse.
Branduil said:
Of course, but I would have to find him. The person who gave the general order isn't the boss, she's some assistant manager always looking to get ahead, and would have said something like 'can't you wait for your break? Get back to work.'
But, like i said, my moral standards were a tad more slack back at that age. By which I mean even though I didn't have evil intentions back then, I still really didn't give a **** I lost my job.
Meh. I've seen these sorts of things in my own family. It's not ever just over a TV show, or what someone did or something someone said. It's over years and years of tension built from whatever. This sort of stubborn, bull-headed shit can happen because of it. I don't know why people are so shocked about this.
fallout said:
That's probably a fair point to make, actually. Especially since I moved out of my house when I was 17, my mom and me have had a very awkward relationship. And I think Shard may remember the time I came to TTB about the time my father gave me a very severe beating.
My family isn't normal, as you can tell, but I still love my mom and my sisters most of all. My sisters are the two most important people in the world to me. Someone asked "why are you angry at the fiance", and although I'm not technically angry, I am a bit standoffish about the whole situation since she is 19 and he is 28. I do not approve of the age difference, and think she should wait longer. He is also a huge geek who has (literally) never even kissed a girl before my sister, and as such has no training whatsoever on how to be a gentleman to her and it sorta pisses me off at times. But they are getting married at May 5th, and I have no say.
D
Deleted member 1235
Unconfirmed Member
what a depressing story. Do you really want to possibly take it up the ass in prison to piss your mum off?
If I was you I would look her right in the eyes and tell her I will never ever ever speak to her again.
If I was you I would look her right in the eyes and tell her I will never ever ever speak to her again.
Is it worth it? After reading this whole 8 pages, I don't think its even worth it to me. But you do deserve 90 days in jail just for your childish reaction. In a lot of ways you're similar to my brother.
You already seen this epsiode of South Park.
According to respect of custom/culture, the guest of the house get the right to be comfortable regardless of who he is TO YOU. Its your mother's HOUSE, not yours. She has the right to give her guest the respect she wants to give. You were merely visiting to eat dinner and watch tv?
I hate my family honestly, but I do try to respect my grandma's wishes when she's willing to invite people over. Because honestly, I think its because she's the one who's lonely. Perhaps your mother's lenient with THIS older guy so the sister can actually move out and have a "life" of her own than be stuck at home.
You love your sisters and your mom? Then stop giving them problems. "Being a MAN" is not the solution, its being a better PERSON that is. You're upset over a lie, an supposed sin that's just as equal to "murder" especially coming from your own mother. This makes sense that you're enraged over it, but the reason behind the lie is downright silly. How do you know she's lying? What if she didn't know til she saw your sister in there and why else she then tell you? Oh... she was lying AFTER she told you? You got mad at her for telling you that you have no choice but miss 10 mins of southpark anyway?
Even if she did lie to you, that gives you no right at all to be ENRAGED at her. She's an adult woman knowing full well of the consequences and this is HER house you're in, and its her GUEST. As a son, even then you have no right to tell HER what she SHOULD DO or NOT. EVEN to not LIE to you. That's just downright dumb AND selfish.
Then you egg on the cops? NICE. Even if they're douches, they're doing a JOB they're signed up for. Shitty job but it pays. Does it PAY you to be a douche too?
Then you go on about respect. WTG. NOT even more than half of this "silly" gaming forum that you're a MOD for is giving you ENOUGH respect. That should say something to you.
And yeah at first I despise liars, but I think its people like you who thinks the world MUST resolve around him are the worst.
You already seen this epsiode of South Park.
According to respect of custom/culture, the guest of the house get the right to be comfortable regardless of who he is TO YOU. Its your mother's HOUSE, not yours. She has the right to give her guest the respect she wants to give. You were merely visiting to eat dinner and watch tv?
I hate my family honestly, but I do try to respect my grandma's wishes when she's willing to invite people over. Because honestly, I think its because she's the one who's lonely. Perhaps your mother's lenient with THIS older guy so the sister can actually move out and have a "life" of her own than be stuck at home.
You love your sisters and your mom? Then stop giving them problems. "Being a MAN" is not the solution, its being a better PERSON that is. You're upset over a lie, an supposed sin that's just as equal to "murder" especially coming from your own mother. This makes sense that you're enraged over it, but the reason behind the lie is downright silly. How do you know she's lying? What if she didn't know til she saw your sister in there and why else she then tell you? Oh... she was lying AFTER she told you? You got mad at her for telling you that you have no choice but miss 10 mins of southpark anyway?
Even if she did lie to you, that gives you no right at all to be ENRAGED at her. She's an adult woman knowing full well of the consequences and this is HER house you're in, and its her GUEST. As a son, even then you have no right to tell HER what she SHOULD DO or NOT. EVEN to not LIE to you. That's just downright dumb AND selfish.
Then you egg on the cops? NICE. Even if they're douches, they're doing a JOB they're signed up for. Shitty job but it pays. Does it PAY you to be a douche too?
Then you go on about respect. WTG. NOT even more than half of this "silly" gaming forum that you're a MOD for is giving you ENOUGH respect. That should say something to you.
And yeah at first I despise liars, but I think its people like you who thinks the world MUST resolve around him are the worst.
Pureauthor
Member
Amir0x, I'm not privy to your childhood, your upbringing, and a hundred thousand other things that would be necessary to make any sort of judgment on the situation that would begin to approach fairness, but I would like to ask you two questions:
After your actions tonight, do you believe that you gained a single ounce of respect from any of the people involved in the whole incident? And, assuming you don't, do you truly consider the self-respect you apparently believed you retained by acting the way you did worth it?
After your actions tonight, do you believe that you gained a single ounce of respect from any of the people involved in the whole incident? And, assuming you don't, do you truly consider the self-respect you apparently believed you retained by acting the way you did worth it?
Amir0x: Ok, on the serious side. I can relate to having a shitty family. I had a horrible childhood (I could write a book and no library would want to put it in the non-fiction area). I can't stand anyone in my family except my little sisters (whom I practically raised...so they didn't turn out like them) and one aunt + her husband. Like you, I love my sisters, but unlike you, I would never do anything to jeapordize being able to look out for them. I have had PLENTY of opportunities these last couple of years to **** that up, but I didn't. Instead, I swallowed my pride and looked for alternate routes. Because of this, I was able to look after them and my sick mother last year when they had no one else. I was able help the youngest make her transition to highschool and teach her a sport (who had never picked up a ball before) and she made varsity! I was able to help the other with her academics and now she's getting a free ride to the college she hand picked last year. I never had anyone who could answer questions, give advice, or look up to when I was growing up, but I'm happy to be able to give that, and some stability, to them. As a big brother, you have to think about what's best for them sometimes. What's more important to you? What do you think they will respect more? You'll never earn your mother's respect the way you want it and society doesn't give a **** about giving you that respect you crave either. So what is there to gain? Weigh it against what you can lose.
Philia said:
Yes. Which is why, although annoyed, I moved on with the request. Moving on for people who actually read...
Philia said:
I don't give them problems. They cause their own problems.
Philia said:
Uhm, how she would not know that there was someone else occupying the television upstairs when that said tv is in HER OWN ROOM which she was in at the time is beyond me. Maybe magic? That sounds like someone who is ill-informed trying to find an 'out' for why she would lie. She lied. it doesn't matter what it's about. It could be about watching the last 3 minutes of Sesame Street, or about picking up three bottles of fruit punch instead of 5. Whatever. If you know you're doing something that is NOT TRUE, yet you say it anyway, it is a lie. And I don't know what world some of the GAF crew has come from, but in this world people shouldn't typically take lies - however small or big - in stride. Or else people will find ways to lie to you in bigger and more progressive ways. It's called getting walked on, and someone who is good at doing it can spot it five million miles away.
(as I said, things aren't always black and white - you may lie to avoid hurting someone's feeling, or lie to avoid a bigger problem... but none of that applies here)
If that's something you feel is fine, that's your prerogative. I choose to tell my mother that I disapproved of the lie. And then I chose to make sure she didn't try to injure me again with her purse by hitting me again. All of this I feel was the proper course of action.
Philia said:
Now this is the most moronic part of all. She invites me into her house as a guest, knowing full well the consequences, so somehow that makes it acceptable to choose if it's right to lie to me. No, in the real world, that makes it even less ****ing acceptable. If you know the consequences and do it anyway, then you deserve each and every excruciating punishment or embarrassment that is about to come your way. I don't care if you live in the White House. I don't care if you're God reincarnate. You lie, you face the consequences. Under any ****ing building, whether you own it or not.
Philia said:
Half the forum thinks Wii is actually fun, what do they know? If my life was guided by what sheltered internet forum goers thought, I don't think we'd be on page 9 still going in circles about this subject
I enjoy the discussions I have at GAF, or I wouldn't come here. Even if they're negative like this, I do not lie or sugarcoat my feelings. I told the story exactly as it happened, and many people here disagreed with my actions. This is my responsibility, as an adult. There are others who feel I did the exact right thing, online and offline. I take each opinion exactly as it is - an opinion. In the end, I have to do what is right for me knowing what my life experiences have taught me. And so far, I've been right.
Rorschach said:
I wouldn't do anything to jeapordize it either. But I look at it differently. My one sister is 19, she can still visit me if she likes. She did not sign the order. It is the 17 year old who would be impacted by this, and in August she will also not be under this order if I understand correctly. It would then only pertain to me and my mother. You speak as if my sisters lost respect for me. My sisters both talked to me and understood what I had to do, although my one sister was angry that I did it in front of her fiance. But she understood. Violence is not the right cource of action for shit like this. my mom was wrong for that, and for calling the police. And Most people realize this.
So did I lose or gain respect from those I love? Maybe I lose some, maybe I gained some, maybe there's no movement. Did I choose to do this exactly the way I wanted, with minimal to no punishment? Well, it didn't look that way for a moment there when that 90 day original thing was going to go through, but not that that's out the window, I could give a ****. My mom only has control over my remaining sister for a few more months.
Rorshcach said:
This is such a watershed quote around here. Who lost respect for me? Some neoGAFers? I'm sorry to hear that. I interact more with people in the real world though, and around here where I live, it's generally considered a good thing to stick up for oneself and not get walked on. There's always a "within reason" clause, but I think many people felt that preventing ones mother from hitting them with a heavy purse is well within that clause. I guess that's just where me and GAF disagree. I know and think about my future before I do things, and that's precisely why goading half-assed cops wasn't something that made me nervous. Because there was no reprecautions for it, only my own personal entertainment.
So I guess GAFers won't agree with me here. Wouldn't be the first time won't be the last. But I don't come here to have my every viewpoint agreed with. I spoke honestly, and the response is what it is.
Amir0x said:
RIGHT. You care about your mother more than your own moral standards.
Seriously, you bleed in your posts about everything that SHOULD be right according to you. Do you ever care about ANYONE besides yourself? Hating the man that your sister is marrying is obvious to how you're losing control over your "care" of your sisters.
Geez dude. I understand not wanting people to walk all over you and not accepting violence, but it's your ****ing mother. In the end, what the hell can she do to you physically. Hell what would she do? Taking the purse out of her hand is one thing. Pinning her to the bed seems more like mild aggression than simple restraint. Would you do this if a girl slapped you after an argument too?
I dont know your exact situation, and there is obviously some history that has gotten things to the point with your family. But damn, I wouldn't think about talking to my GRANDMA like that, let alone my Mother. She'd slap my ass before I could even finish those words no matter what age I was. Hell, I don't even swear in front of my mom out of respect. Different culture I guess. It's like those old gangster movies where some of the hardest fools that don't take shit from anyone would still be all polite towards their mother as she's boppin them in the head.
I dont know your exact situation, and there is obviously some history that has gotten things to the point with your family. But damn, I wouldn't think about talking to my GRANDMA like that, let alone my Mother. She'd slap my ass before I could even finish those words no matter what age I was. Hell, I don't even swear in front of my mom out of respect. Different culture I guess. It's like those old gangster movies where some of the hardest fools that don't take shit from anyone would still be all polite towards their mother as she's boppin them in the head.
thetrin
Hail, peons, for I have come as ambassador from the great and bountiful Blueberry Butt Explosion
Where I come from, guests get precedence over people who live in the house. If a guest wanted to watch TV, it`s his place to watch. As a member of the family, it`s my responsibility to make them feel welcome. If that means I don`t watch the last 10 minutes of a show I`ve already seen, then so be it.
Guests always have the right of way. Sorry ami.
Guests always have the right of way. Sorry ami.
thetrin
Hail, peons, for I have come as ambassador from the great and bountiful Blueberry Butt Explosion
Rule number 1 about life: It`s better to let people live in their fool`s paradise thinking they own you, and to live knowing no one owns you, than to start a war trying to prove that you are your own master.
thetrin
Hail, peons, for I have come as ambassador from the great and bountiful Blueberry Butt Explosion
Amir0x said:
You know, restraining and shouting doesn`t solve everything. Sometimes, just apologizing and swallowing your pride is the way to go. My pride is maleable. I don`t always think my mom is right. I`m 24 now, and my mom still does shit on occasion that she really has no right to do since I don`t live with my parents anymore. Fact of the matter is, she`S my mother, and she will always be my mother until the day she dies. I`m always her son, and she will always treat me like it, no matter how much I wish the opposite.
Diplomacy sometimes means sucking up your pride, apologizing for something you`re not sorry for, and walking away.
You`ll be surprised. On many occasions, my mom would come chat with me hours or days later, and say "You know...I was wrong. You shouldn`t apologize because it was my fault."
OK...
First, you were causing some quite uncalled family tension there when insulting your sister's fiance, that's clearly what made your mother hit you with a purse to get you to shut the hell up.
And about the fiance... trust me, it's better to have a 30 y o virgin geek than a 30 y o **** with a known story of alcoholism, drugs and arrests because of hitting girls. Real story, thankfully not in my family.
But yeah, your mother went really far when calling the police and I threw a few tantrums to my own mother when doing that "let's lie to my son to get something really unnecessary" thing during my teenage years. She doesn't do that to me anymore, she just asks with sugar on top and I normally do it. If she did that again I'd probably have some troubles keeping my voice down.
But man... you were really lucky with the police thing. Here we know cases of people getting their ribs worked because of going cheeky when arrested. That was an unnecessary risk, and probably put you into a worse position.
First, you were causing some quite uncalled family tension there when insulting your sister's fiance, that's clearly what made your mother hit you with a purse to get you to shut the hell up.
And about the fiance... trust me, it's better to have a 30 y o virgin geek than a 30 y o **** with a known story of alcoholism, drugs and arrests because of hitting girls. Real story, thankfully not in my family.
But yeah, your mother went really far when calling the police and I threw a few tantrums to my own mother when doing that "let's lie to my son to get something really unnecessary" thing during my teenage years. She doesn't do that to me anymore, she just asks with sugar on top and I normally do it. If she did that again I'd probably have some troubles keeping my voice down.
But man... you were really lucky with the police thing. Here we know cases of people getting their ribs worked because of going cheeky when arrested. That was an unnecessary risk, and probably put you into a worse position.
Mrs. Manky
Banned
His mom lied
But nobody died.
Sorry, that's all I got.
But nobody died.
Sorry, that's all I got.
First, let's agree that you acted like a spoilt twelve-year-old from the start. Kicking up a fuss over being asked to miss the last ten minutes of a show you'd seen before and didn't even like? That's a joke. Had your mom previously said that your sister's fiancee could watch the program he wanted to? Or is the whole question of 'lies' about TV rights something which only applies when you're the 'victim'?
The way your mom reacted to it was pretty much textbook for dealing with a petulant child. You see it as a lie, she sees it as a way of dealing with a kid who's just being difficult for the sake of it, while at the same time doing his best to offend her guests.
So we get to the bedroom scene. I know this might be something you have a problem with, but perhaps try looking at it from her point of view. You've deliberately tried to cause offence to her guests. You're shouting at her in her house, and insulting her family and guests. What do you think she should do?
Well, you've told us what you think's fair in these situations when you're the one who feels disrespected. You get to punch a guy in the face. That's a proportional response and one worthy of 'respect' in your ****ed up world, if we go by your LAN party story. Strange that when you're doing exactly the same to your own mother, she's somehow in the wrong for hitting you with a purse. Doesn't that make you a hypocrite? Hell, give her the full rights you accord yourself and she could probably go all Drinky-Crow-tire-iron on your ass.
The way your mom reacted to it was pretty much textbook for dealing with a petulant child. You see it as a lie, she sees it as a way of dealing with a kid who's just being difficult for the sake of it, while at the same time doing his best to offend her guests.
So we get to the bedroom scene. I know this might be something you have a problem with, but perhaps try looking at it from her point of view. You've deliberately tried to cause offence to her guests. You're shouting at her in her house, and insulting her family and guests. What do you think she should do?
Well, you've told us what you think's fair in these situations when you're the one who feels disrespected. You get to punch a guy in the face. That's a proportional response and one worthy of 'respect' in your ****ed up world, if we go by your LAN party story. Strange that when you're doing exactly the same to your own mother, she's somehow in the wrong for hitting you with a purse. Doesn't that make you a hypocrite? Hell, give her the full rights you accord yourself and she could probably go all Drinky-Crow-tire-iron on your ass.
psycho_snake
I went to WAGs boutique and all I got was a sniff
good luck ami. 90 days without gaf and missing the launch of super paper mario must really suck for you, but Im sure that you've got much bigger problems that you have to deal with. I hope you get through all this without too much trouble.
Calling the police to resolve a family dispute is so :lol, and then to take it a step further and file a restraining order on your own son is :lol :lol.
My mother called the police on my once eighteen year old sister for pushing, and breaking my once eighty four year old grandmothers hip (an injury not easily rehab-able from at that age, and in many instances will lead to death for the very frail of old). That is a justifiable reason to involve the police, but my mother still feels awful about having done it. I can only hope your mother reflects and comes to the same conclusion- her actions certainly merit a lot more guilt.
This situation could have been completely avoided if even one of the two adults (whoa, certainly a term to be used loosely as it relates to the two of you) exercised some semblance of restraint.
I'd seriously try to resolve the issues you have with your family (mother, sister/fiance), because it seems like those differences finally came to a head, in the most ugliest of ways possible.
My mother called the police on my once eighteen year old sister for pushing, and breaking my once eighty four year old grandmothers hip (an injury not easily rehab-able from at that age, and in many instances will lead to death for the very frail of old). That is a justifiable reason to involve the police, but my mother still feels awful about having done it. I can only hope your mother reflects and comes to the same conclusion- her actions certainly merit a lot more guilt.
This situation could have been completely avoided if even one of the two adults (whoa, certainly a term to be used loosely as it relates to the two of you) exercised some semblance of restraint.
I'd seriously try to resolve the issues you have with your family (mother, sister/fiance), because it seems like those differences finally came to a head, in the most ugliest of ways possible.
iapetus said:
Actually, if his mother was the least bit competent as a parent, she would have nipped whatever rift he and his sisters fiance had in the bud a long, long time ago. You never take sides as a parent, you rationalize and reason. Not that I'm trying to defend Amirox, but I feel not nearly enough attention is being paid to his mothers brazen actions. She should be ashamed.
Dangerous Porno Pipeline said:
Exactly, QFT.
Seems to me that his mum wanted to make the fiancee feel welcome and let him watch his show, and knowing that Amirox is such a douche, panicked and made up a quick white lie to get him out of the room and not cause a scene in front of the finacee. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt here, because I don't think it's beyond the realms of possibility that she didn't know his sister was watching TV in her room. God knows why you'd want to stay by yourself and watch a cartoon you've already seen while visiting your family instead of actually socialising, but that's beside the point.
Then Amirox realises he's been DISRESPECTED, and has a girly little tantrum that the fiancee can hear, some rubbish about him having more right to watch his mother's TV than the guest who she's trying to make a good impression on, embarrassing her in front of her daughter's fiancee.
Then it all turns a bit wacky. I've been hit by women a few times before while being a drunk moron, admittedly not smashed with a purse full of anvils, but I've been able to survive the ordeals by blocking with my hands/backing away/apologising/catching the slap with minimal force. At no point have I ever considered grabbing a woman by the wrists and manhandling her down on the bed, least of all my own mother. Conclusion: Amriox is a complete jerkwad and has serious anger issues.
psycho_snake
I went to WAGs boutique and all I got was a sniff
good luck ami. 90 days without gaf and missing the launch of super paper mario must really suck for you, but Im sure that you've got much bigger problems that you have to deal with. I hope you get through all this without too much trouble.
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