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[SatelliteOfLove]

I don't see it. Not that it's unilaterally a bad thing but I don't think Dark Souls makes any pretenses about establishing parity among its players. Choosing the master key and knowing how to use it gives you a tremendous advantage over players that don't use it.

That is pre-established parity. Random copies do not have the key and others have the pendant. Equality of Opportunity rather than Equality of Outcome personified.

Oddly enough, the original question would also be natura. pre-established parity.

This is the most elitist perspective I've seen in relation to games in a while. Yes, you like your Souls games hard. I get that, I respect that. Denying an optional mode that would other players to enjoy the games that you do is absolutely mindboggling. I wanted to love Demon's Souls but playing for three hours without being able to make any real progress and not knowing what any stat meant or any item did was infuriating. I don't mind a challenge but Demon's Souls was just obtuse for the sake of it. I don't need it to be all that much easier or for it to hold my hand but I do want to be able to get a better grasp of the mechanics by playing the game without having to refer to online guides. If your game demands players go to an external source for help to even grasp the basic necessities, you've failed as a designer.

Silly H_Prestige! The internet is for bitching, not self-betterment!

Seriously, this generation is so Agoraphobic Gamer-slanted its comedy by this point.

Da, Game Design Kommisar, the game will lurch in your direction and way from the mindset that got the series awards, profit, mindshare, a rabid fanbase, and innovations. That's never bit games in the ass before. Ever.

 

[InPlosion]

This is the most elitist perspective I've seen in relation to games in a while. Yes, you like your Souls games hard. I get that, I respect that. Denying an optional mode that would other players to enjoy the games that you do is absolutely mindboggling. I wanted to love Demon's Souls but playing for three hours without being able to make any real progress and not knowing what any stat meant or any item did was infuriating. I don't mind a challenge but Demon's Souls was just obtuse for the sake of it. I don't need it to be all that much easier or for it to hold my hand but I do want to be able to get a better grasp of the mechanics by playing the game without having to refer to online guides. If your game demands players go to an external source for help to even grasp the basic necessities, you've failed as a designer.

Liking different things now is calling somebody elitist?
If you felt you gave Demon's souls a fair chance, and didn't like it, why are you rubbing out your tastes on me?

Why should a game I like bend over towards people who don't like it?
Should FIFA implement FPS shooting mechanics to attract the COD audience?

Ask yourself these questions, realize why that's unreasonable, act accordingly.
I cannot explain this in any other way, there's no Simpler exposition of what I'm trying to comunicate: if you remove difficulty from dark souls, there's nothing relevant left to enjoy. That's the whole game. At least, for the first playthrough.
If you still feel insulted, if you still think I'm some bully trying to keep you out of the "Cool boys' club", well, you are free to think whatever you want, at the end of the day. Atleast I tryed...

 

[Sullichin]

I'd have to agree here. It took me 3 times of restarting the game for Demon Souls to finally click for me because I felt like I was playing the game wrong. The game barely explains anything to you and it really turned me off. Once it clicked I loved the game, but I was literally at wits end at that point. Dark Souls had a better primer and explained things much better and was easier to get into. I wouldn't mind if the tutorial part of the game was refined but they kept the tough difficulty in. All I ask for is a just a little explanation, Dark Souls was perfect imo.

I'm all for making DKS2 more accessible if that means explaining the mechanics in a more obvious manner and putting more effort into the translation.

Would you say that a character that chooses and utilizes the master key fully and one that goes with twin humanities to start with are on the same playing field?

Yeah, definitely. Choosing the master key doesn't suddenly give you an advantage. There's still plenty of powerful weapons you can get right away if you don't select the master key, if that's what you were getting at. It's also available really early on if you don't decide to start with it. The person with more knowledge of the game world/mechanics is always going to have the advantage. Makes sense.

 

[RoboPlato]

Liking different things now is calling somebody elitist?
If you felt you gave Demon's souls a fair chance, and didn't like it, why are you rubbing out your tastes on me?

Why should a game I like bend over towards people who don't like it?
Should FIFA implement FPS shooting mechanics to attract the COD audience?

Ask yourself these questions, realize why that's unreasonable, act accordingly.
I cannot explain this in any other way, there's no Simpler exposition of what I'm trying to comunicate: if you remove difficulty from dark souls, there's nothing relevant left to enjoy. That's the whole game. At least, for the first playthrough.
If you still feel insulted, if you still think I'm some bully trying to keep you out of the "Cool boys' club", well, you are free to think whatever you want, at the end of the day. Atleast I tryed...

I'm not saying to remove that at all, I'm just saying a mode that would ease players in better and would allow them to work their way up to the true difficulty of the game would be an ideal situation. Players would be able to appreciate the learning curve and final difficulty a lot more if the game explained it to them. Someone on the last page said Dark Souls did this a lot better than Demon's Souls, so they may have already addressed this issue and I just didn't know about it.

I'm planning on giving Demon's another attempt this summer since I loved the atmosphere, I just wish it had more of a difficulty curve with more explanations.

 

[AcceptableGhost]

I'm all for making DKS2 more accessible if that means explaining the mechanics in a more obvious manner and putting more effort into the translation.

dark souls (and demon's souls) explained everything you need to know to beat the game in the tutorial

nothing more, nothing less, beautiful minimalism

 

[Lionheart1827]

I haven't played Demons Souls in a while but how is the tutorial any different in either game? I remember them being very similar. The only difference being that in Demons Souls you die at the end of the tutorial and there are a few more variations of enemies you encounter though they have really simple AI during the tutorial.

Its been about 2 years since I've beaten Demon Souls so I cant really go into specifics but from what I remember is it tells you basic controls in the tutorial, thats fine. But once you die and end up in the Nexus, theres a lot of stuff that kind is just there and you have to learn on your own or read the wiki.

I remember sometimes they'd show a little dialog about something but it was usually vague like the world tendency stuff, invading, summoning, etc etc.

I bet if I went back to it today everything would make sense, but coming from virgin players that game will test anyone's patience. I cant imagine how many players were turned off from Demon Souls only to never play it again and even so far as to not get Dark Souls(which is a more accessible game, imo). I could easily see myself in that party, too, but I'm glad I had the patience to just trudge through a little more or I would've missed out on Dark Souls. Some people would love these games but just dont have the patience for certain things.

 

[theta11]

Its been about 2 years since I've beaten Demon Souls so I cant really go into specifics but from what I remember is it tells you basic controls in the tutorial, thats fine. But once you die and end up in the Nexus, theres a lot of stuff that kind is just there and you have to learn on your own or read the wiki.

I remember sometimes they'd show a little dialog about something but it was usually vague like the world tendency stuff, invading, summoning, etc etc.

I bet if I went back to it today everything would make sense, but coming from virgin players that game will test anyone's patience. I cant imagine how many players were turned off from Demon Souls only to never play it again and even so far as to not get Dark Souls(which is a more accessible game, imo).

Ok I actually remember now. Instead of telling you the more advanced things during the tutorial they were actually down the stairs in the Nexus. It was a weird place to put them since it's very easy to not notice them but the information is readily available.

 

[AcceptableGhost]

I remember sometimes they'd show a little dialog about something but it was usually vague like the world tendency stuff, invading, summoning, etc etc.

None of that stuff is necessary to beat the game though. And it is pretty obvious what is happening when (GAMERTAG) HAS INVADED YOUR GAME pops up. Why does everything need thick tutorial screens when they aren't that obtuse of concepts? Human brains can figure out stuff pretty quick! Why not treat players like they have a working human brain?

World tendency is slightly obtuse yes, but also totally unnecessary for the player to know right off the bat.

 

[Sullichin]

dark souls (and demon's souls) explained everything you need to know to beat the game in the tutorial

nothing more, nothing less, beautiful minimalism

I don't disagree at all. Personally I wouldn't change a thing. But it's pretty much confirmed at this point that they want to make the game more accessible. There are acceptable ways of doing this that don't involve making the game easy. I'd just rather them explain certain things more plainly over making the game actually easier. When I was stuck in the first level of Demon's Souls way back it wasn't because the level was hard, it's actually really easy, it's just because I was playing it wrong. Don't get me wrong, I love that the Souls games don't beat you over the head with a standard tutorial, but if that would help more people enjoy the series instead of making the combat easier or the level design more forgiving, I would be ok with that concession.

 

[Baraka in the White House]

I don't disagree at all. Personally I wouldn't change a thing. But it's pretty much confirmed at this point that they want to make the game more accessible. There are acceptable ways of doing this that don't involve making the game easy. I'd just rather them explain certain things more plainly over making the game actually easier. When I was stuck in the first level of Demon's Souls way back it wasn't because the level was hard, it's actually really easy, it's just because I was playing it wrong. Don't get me wrong, I love that the Souls games don't beat you over the head with a standard tutorial, but if that would help more people enjoy the series instead of making the combat easier or the level design more forgiving, I would be ok with that concession.

Bu-whaa? A reasonable Souls fan?

 

[Lionheart1827]

I don't disagree at all. Personally I wouldn't change a thing. But it's pretty much confirmed at this point that they want to make the game more accessible. There are acceptable ways of doing this that don't involve making the game easy. I'd just rather them explain certain things more plainly over making the game actually easier. When I was stuck in the first level of Demon's Souls way back it wasn't because the level was hard, it's actually really easy, it's just because I was playing it wrong. Don't get me wrong, I love that the Souls games don't beat you over the head with a standard tutorial, but if that would help more people enjoy the series instead of making the combat easier or the level design more forgiving, I would be ok with that concession.

This is pretty much what I was trying to say but couldn't really articulate it as well.

 

[blade85]

I hope the next one is harder. after one run even ng+ and beyond isnt a big enough jump in difficulty.

 

[Sullichin]

I hope the next one is harder. after one run even ng+ and beyond isnt a big enough jump in difficulty.

naked sl1 ng+7 do it.

 

[H_Prestige]

Christ, the games already have something akin to a tutorial level. What more do you people want?

The Souls games are never going to be for everyone. It's the closest thing gaming has to real art right now. Trying to broaden the appeal will just end up diluting it and pushing away the current fans.

 

[RK9039]

Both DeS and DkS throw players in the deep end. With that said both games do a good job explaining the basics.

Don't understand what a specific stat means? press select and find out. Don't understand what all these weapon types mean? again, press select to find out. Poise, shield stability, everything is explained. You just have to read. The gameplay is even more straightforward, be patient and conserve your stamina, it's all about trial and error. Learning from mistakes and becoming a better player gradually, I think that's one of my favourite parts of the series. I remember getting completely destroyed in DeS when it first came out. Finding out new mechanics, what works and what doesn't work that was another enjoyable experience.

When is comes to things like Covenants, which isn't explained directly (e.g you don't know what you'll get for raising your Path of the Dragon to rank 2), I think that was just another fun part of the game, shrouded in secrecy (until you look at wikis of course).

However I personally don't mind Dark Souls 2 being more direct when it comes to game mechanics, DeS also had a tutorial so..

 

[Orayn]

I don't think the purpose of making Dark Souls II "more accessible" is for everyone who plays to beat the game with ease, but for fewer people to quit before they understand what it's really about. No QTEs or massive drop in difficulty, just a little more gentle guidance in brilliantly designed levels like the Undead Burg, and more important game mechanics explained directly in-game with greater clarity.

Christ, the games already have something akin to a tutorial level. What more do you people want?

A tutorial level that explains even more things, but can be skipped or rushed through in very little time.

 

[Jathaine]

I don't see it. Not that it's unilaterally a bad thing but I don't think Dark Souls makes any pretenses about establishing parity among its players. Choosing the master key and knowing how to use it gives you a tremendous advantage over players that don't use it.

The advantage of not having to fight the Taurus Demon?
Once you beat it you can then reach most of the places you could go with the Master Key (though its a more roundabout way) by hitting up the Parish and then going to Darkroot. From there you can hit up the Valley of Drakes and also Blighttown (and get the key) then hit New Londo.

The Master Key at the start saves you a good 20 minutes of playtime, sure... but it isn't a "tremendous advantage"

 

[Midou]

my all time favorite game (kings field).
2. A new director to helm the game is almost always a bad idea, especially if the first words out of his mouth include "more action"

You realize though, that Demon's and Dark Souls director came on to FROM essentially after all the King's Field games anyway right?

Plus, Souls series is way "more action" than King's Field.

 

[Dictator93]

A tutorial level that explains even more things, but can be skipped or rushed through in very little time.

What about atmosphere building? Arent these DKS and DemonSouls opening levels very unique to the games themselves?

I find them great and really do not want to see something like the Undead Asylum be further... diluted.

 

[Weltall Zero]

They want to make things "easier to understand". That's the definition of dumbing things down.

It most certainly is not. "Dumbing down" means "making simpler and shallower", i.e. removing depth. "Easier to understand" means "making more approachable", i.e. removing entry barrier.

Chess and Go are both easy to understand; they are by no means shallow, though. Conversely, Calvinball is hard to understand, yet shallow.

In any case, I could certainly advocate for some of the more essential and cryptical mechanics of the game (like humanity, summoning, perhaps crafting/embers) to be explained in a bit more detail, even if it's via a menu-embedded encyclopaedia. I'm also against missable secrets, in general, but that's personal taste. However, if it's a choice between leaving things as they are, and making things any easier than what I mentioned, I'd rather they left them as they are.

 

[UrbanRats]

Its not the same game without the difficulty. Its part of the experience. On easy mode, people would play the game, get through it, and not quite understand what all the fuss was about and probably complain.

I'm usually all for options and making things accessible to larger amounts of people, but in this case, I just cant agree. Easy mode would be tragic. If you dont like challenge, dont buy the game.

I do agree they need to explain some stuff better. Even Dark Souls had room for improvement in that area.

I don't like challenge.
I bought Dark Souls.
I enjoyed it, it's my game of the gen, probably.

Different people get different things out of the same games.
There's more to DkS than pure challenge, and as i mentioned several times now, challenge is a proportional concept.

Liking different things now is calling somebody elitist?

...
Ask yourself these questions, realize why that's unreasonable, act accordingly.
I cannot explain this in any other way, there's no Simpler exposition of what I'm trying to comunicate: if you remove difficulty from dark souls, there's nothing relevant left to enjoy. That's the whole game. At least, for the first playthrough.
If you still feel insulted, if you still think I'm some bully trying to keep you out of the "Cool boys' club", well, you are free to think whatever you want, at the end of the day. Atleast I tryed...

That's like.. your opinion, man.
I think there's a whole lot more than difficulty (what a shit game that would be, otherwise) and as someone who usually doesn't enjoy challenge, i love DkS.
The elitist attitude is in trying to dictate what Dark Souls "is all about" and going all out with the "true scotsman" bullshit.

 

[Lime]

So apparently the tag line for DS2 will be "Go Beyond Death":

Remember that poll asking you about various potential taglines for Dark Souls 2? An update to the official Dark Souls 2 website suggests one has been chosen: Go Beyond Death. Seems pretty appropriate. The hardcore RPG sequel is expected on PC, PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360 in late 2013 or early 2014.

This is pretty funny considering that FROM's fan poll asking for the taglines indicated an entirely different prioritization.

The people on the Facebook page are somewhat pissed.

 

[I NEED SCISSORS]

"Go Beyond Death" has a much better ring to it than the other two. It also feels like a natural evolution from "Prepare to Die". Sorry fans, but you're wrong.

 

[Soriku]

Go Beyond Death is just a crappier version of Transcend Death.

 

[Spongebob]

So much for them listening to fans.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

I don't like challenge.
I bought Dark Souls.
I enjoyed it, it's my game of the gen, probably.

Different people get different things out of the same games.
There's more to DkS than pure challenge, and as i mentioned several times now, challenge is a proportional concept.


That's like.. your opinion, man.
I think there's a whole lot more than difficulty (what a shit game that would be, otherwise) and as someone who usually doesn't enjoy challenge, i love DkS.
The elitist attitude is in trying to dictate what Dark Souls "is all about" and going all out with the "true scotsman" bullshit.

It's a complete package. That's exactly WHY it needs to be entire like this. Fair, elegant, indifferent difficulty.

Shit, I wonder when a scrub mode mod is coming out for the PC version. Now there's where the fun stuff should be. PC's house, PC's rules.

 

[UrbanRats]

So apparently the tag line for DS2 will be "Go Beyond Death":



This is pretty funny considering that FROM's fan poll asking for the taglines indicated an entirely different prioritization.

The people on the Facebook page are somewhat pissed.

lol @ the typo.

Transcend Death is alright, but perhaps doesn't roll off the tongue as easily as "Go beyond death".
If it were me, though, i would remove the "go", it just feels cheap.
"Beyond Death" is enough.

It's a complete package. That's exactly WHY it needs to be entire like this. Fair, elegant, indifferent difficulty.

Shit, I wonder when a scrub mode mod is coming out for the PC version. Now there's where the fun stuff should be. PC's house, PC's rules.

Indeed it is a complete package, i just don't think it's a perfectly enclosed and fine tuned one, i think there's room for a gray area, regarding difficulty (as well as other aspects).
Anyway i've made my point, i wouldn't want to run around in circles with this.

 

[Sullichin]

All of those taglines are cringeworthy, thankfully they have nothing to do with the game. But yeah "Beyond Death" sounds more elegant.

 

[Lime]

If it were me, though, i would remove the "go", it just feels cheap.
"Beyond Death" is enough.

I completely agree.

 

[Instro]

See, the narrative compartment worries me more than a simple "easy mode".
I hope they won't try to force cutscenes and plot points down our throat.

I dunno, I think there is some wiggle room for more direct storytelling. Obviously it depends how far they take it, but certainly the Souls universe is a very unique and could benefit from a few more apparent plot points to drive the reasoning behind the players actions beyond getting the hell out of where ever you're at. There's a lot of elements in Dark Souls that could be more clearly tied together with an expanded back story, and it doesn't have to be done with big cutscenes either.

The only comment I really like though is fixing the covenant system, it was clearly a mess.

 

[UrbanRats]

I dunno, I think there is some wiggle room for more direct storytelling. Obviously it depends how far they take it, but certainly the Souls universe is a very unique and could benefit from a few more apparent plot points to drive the reasoning behind the players actions beyond getting the hell out of where ever you're at. There's a lot of elements in Dark Souls that could be more clearly tied together with an expanded back story, and it doesn't have to be done with big cutscenes either.

The only comment I really like though is fixing the covenant system, it was clearly a mess.

Sisters of Chaos' back story was the best one, imo.. though to be fair, it was cool to see it come together on this youtube video, remembering all the clues you had seen in the game but didn't piece together at the time.

 

[wastedyears]

If your game demands players go to an external source for help to even grasp the basic necessities, you've failed as a designer.

Demon's/Dark Souls doesn't demand players go to an external source. If you choose to go to an external source, that's your decision. I don't mean to be rude, but if you can't grasp basic necessities without outside help when countless others have, then that is a failure on the part of the player, not the game design. As many others have said, these games aren't nearly as difficult as people say. Be patient, learn from your mistakes, and accept that you will get killed many times before you are finished. Just play the game solo, don't use a guide, don't summon another player. Demon's Souls and Dark Souls are both better that way.

 

[Dresden]

How many people figured out the crafting system in DeSouls without outside help? I mean, the designers already moved towards more transparency with in-game data in Dark Souls, and I expect that trend to continue even more.

The whole "Demon's/Dark Souls doesn't demand players go to an external source" thing doesn't make sense, since one of Miyazaki's aims was to promote a sense of community via obfuscation.

 

[popyea]

If your game demands players go to an external source for help to even grasp the basic necessities, you've failed as a designer.

Or you're a genius designer. It all ties into the online system. Messages, bloodstains, and co-op would be worthless if the game was obvious. The sense of unknown coupled with the ability to give and receive help is perfectly suited. It makes what would otherwise feel daunting, feel dutiful and important, because you know others are struggling and trying to help each other as well.

 

[evil_ash_xero]

The thing that kills my excitement for this game, is that they got rid of Miyazaki.
If he was still the director, and they were talking about an "easy mode" or making the opening more friendly for new players, I would be FAR less worried. That they got rid of him almost completely is what kills my faith in this project.

I would love to be surprised though.

 

[ramoisdead]

So what could it be? Some media blowout, in-game trailer, interview?

Well since it's on the 11th, I double checked my cable box and it looks like there will be a new episode of GTTV. Most likely the episode will contain some new coverage on DSII.

As for the tagline, I prefer "Transcend Death" over "Go Beyond Death".

 

[Seanspeed]

Demon's/Dark Souls doesn't demand players go to an external source. If you choose to go to an external source, that's your decision. I don't mean to be rude, but if you can't grasp basic necessities without outside help when countless others have, then that is a failure on the part of the player, not the game design. As many others have said, these games aren't nearly as difficult as people say. Be patient, learn from your mistakes, and accept that you will get killed many times before you are finished. Just play the game solo, don't use a guide, don't summon another player. Demon's Souls and Dark Souls are both better that way.

I disagree with that. I definitely felt a guide was necessary here and there. Sure, you *could* beat it without one, but you would miss so much and would probably make bad choices in terms of weapons and upgrades and whatnot because you didn't understand the systems very well because they aren't ever really explained to you.

They can definitely do a bit better job with that.

 

[UrbanRats]

Well since it's on the 11th, I double checked my cable box and it looks like there will be a new episode of GTTV. Most likely the episode will contain some new coverage on DSII.

As for the tagline, I prefer "Transcend Death" over "Go Beyond Death".

Oh, that's too bad, as GTTV is usually a lot of Geoff talking and a lot of side stuff.

 

[Killthee]

12 minutes of gameplay tomorrow.

 

[Dresden]

I hope it's twelve minutes of gestures and weapon switching.

 

[Qvoth]

12 minutes of gameplay tomorrow.

oh shit