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[madjoki]

As per Kaldaien:

Always online is not caused by Denuvo, that's on Sega alone.

I'd gues SEGA is trying to prevent users from refunding game but continuing to play offline (one denuvo workaround).

Denuvo itself enforces periodic online checks.

It doesn't. But the probalbem is that if you install updates (like GPU drivers), that's enough "deactivate".

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Was it really worth it to delay the PC release 2 weeks and adding draconian DRM bullshit and pissing PC gamers that way, Sega?

*the answer in a few days on SteamSpy*

 

[Battlechili]

interesting that he links to SEGA.co.uk

guess it was a SEGA of Europe decision

SEGA Europe handles all the PC releases

 

[Knurek]

Was it really worth it to delay the PC release 2 weeks and adding draconian DRM bullshit and pissing PC gamers that way, Sega?

*the answer in a few days on SteamSpy*

Well, this thread alone shows you how many people bought the game using 3rd party sites and are pretty fucked ATM with no way to refund.
Steam reviews should be a good indicator - they have been steadily going down for the past few hours.

 

[Unai]

Was it really worth it to delay the PC release 2 weeks and adding draconian DRM bullshit and pissing PC gamers that way, Sega?

*the answer in a few days on SteamSpy*

The reality is that we'll never know unless we get access to an alternate universe where everything is the same except this. If Sonic Mania sells 10* billion copies now, who is to say that it wouldn't have sold 30* billions if it weren't for this incident?

* Hyperbole to make a point.

 

[s_mirage]

Hah, funnily enough a game I have that exact problem with is... Sega Rally Revo (bought via Direct2Drive).

Yeah, the response of publishers to the Securom/Safedisc blacklisting alone makes a pretty good case for why DRM is a bad thing. AFAIK, none of them have released patches to disc based games, or games released on depreciated platforms. Their attitude has typically been "fuck you, we've already got your money", leaving no legitimate options other than buying the games again on other distribution platforms, and that's if they're even available.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

The reality is that we'll never know unless we get access to an alternate universe where everything is the same except this. If Sonic Mania sells 10* billions copies now, who is to say that it wouldn't have sold 30* billions if it weren't for this incident?

* Hyperbole to make a point.

We should still see how it does compared to other platforms once official numbers comes at some point.

(And compare it to other Sonic releases)

 

[Shaneus]

Wait, they delayed the game 2 weeks and there's problems with controller support?

What the fuck, Sega?

Weird, controller support worked fine in Sonic CD, a game Christian helped develop and release on PC...

We should still see how it does compared to other platforms once official numbers comes at some point.

That's completely pointless now. How do you determine if low sales are purely from the delay, from the DRM announcement or some other reason.

 

[Daeoc]

We should still see how it does compared to other platforms once official numbers comes at some point.

(And compare it to other Sonic releases)

The extremely low system requirements should add to sales, too.

 

[Mark1]

https://twitter.com/CFWhitehead/status/902573147592900608

People need to stop blaming these guys. Sega should ultimately be getting all of the blame for this shit practise.

 

[BrettHeazy]

I doubt it took two weeks for Denuvo to inject their Anti-Piracy tool into the game.

I still believe they just wanted to shift more console sales

 

[Ramune]

Shoot, I had that feeling it was this, especially with Taxman's tweet. Now it's official, and I have a 10% worthless Collector's Edition...has any other PC Sonic game used DRM?

 

[Lijik]

Shoot, I had that feeling it was this, especially with Taxman's tweet. Now it's official, and I have a 10% worthless Collector's Edition...has any other PC Sonic game used DRM?

Sonic Lost World uses a form of DRM that can kick you out of the game even if you own it on steam, I have to play it cracked to get it to run

 

[Foffy]

Sonic Lost World uses a form of DRM that can kick you out of the game even if you own it on steam, I have to play it cracked to get it to run

Seems like the DRM was doing you a favor.

 

[Bakercat]

 

[jrcbandit]

Denuvo used to make sense for publishers as it could actually convert non-hardcore pirates into buying games who would "try" a pirated game before purchase and then conveniently never purchase it. Of course hardcore pirates never buy any game other than a few online-only shooters. Now that Denuvo can be cracked within days what's the point, it's not going to work on the try before purchase pirates any more.

 

[JetSetRadio]

Sega doesn't like pc.
Sure they'll port some old shit.

 

[13ruce]

Hopefully it's removed soon game has lots of positive feedback so might aswell do it sooner then later.

 

[kewlmyc]

You're asking what the problem with excessive DRM is?

And if there's something wrong with something so generally despised?

Right. Short summary:

1, It hides a server depency to a 3rd party Amazon server, that's needed for installation (and often updates to the game or your computer), otherwise you won't get to play your game. If the server would be taken down with the DRM removed, the game will become unavailable.
2. It only serves a purpose when it's uncracked and no drm free version is available, so you won't get releases at GOG or similiar sites until it's removed.
3. It only serves a purpose for the developer/publisher (if even that). You as a customer have no benefit of it.
4. If if implemented wrong, it can effect the performance of the game.
5. It can limit modding of games.

I knew it was hated, but all I ever got when I asked was "because it's shitty DRM".

Thanks for actually explaining it. Sounds garbage. Might be going for that refund now.

 

[spineduke]

Denuvo used to make sense for publishers as it could actually convert non-hardcore pirates into buying games who would "try" a pirated game before purchase and then conveniently never purchase it.

Not really - Denuvo hasn't achieved anything remarkable with sales. There's no evidence suggesting that there have been "conversions" or "recovered lost sales".

 

[Knurek]

Game is down to Mostly Positive already.

 

[Huge Succeeded]

Denuvo used to make sense for publishers as it could actually convert non-hardcore pirates into buying games who would "try" a pirated game before purchase and then conveniently never purchase it. Of course hardcore pirates never buy any game other than a few online-only shooters. Now that Denuvo can be cracked within days what's the point, it's not going to work on the try before purchase pirates any more.

I think that publishers generally opt for Denuvo these days specifically to curb launch week piracy with games where the campaign is a major draw. There's a couple of outliers there - games that are very compromised offline and therefore would never be pirated to the same degree as games that aren't - but not nearly as many as I had assumed before I looked into it.
On some level I would have understood Sonic Mania releasing with Denuvo on PC if Sonic Mania released at the same time as the console versions. I don't understand releasing the game late with Denuvo. I especially don't understand additional always-online DRM, that's just complete bullshit.

 

[Atrarock]

http://steamcommunity.com/games/584400/announcements/detail/1448326045461380318

Stealth is about to unleash that rage.

 

[RoboGeorgeForeman]

Was already leaning towards grabbing it on the Switch. This just solidifies that.

 

[gafneo]

For modders, do what the fan who created this did. Modd other games on the genesis to make your own Sonic game.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Weird, controller support worked fine in Sonic CD, a game Christian helped develop and release on PC...


That's completely pointless now. How do you determine if low sales are purely from the delay, from the DRM announcement or some other reason.

Why would be one of the best Sonic games in years, if not the best, which dosn't seem to have any technical issues, aside from DRM, would have low sales on PC compared to other platform sales/other Sonic games?

 

[s_mirage]

Stealth is about to unleash that rage.

I can't see that post there now, but way to go Sega! Not only have you managed to piss off your fans and botch the launch of the PC version of your game, but you've pissed off your developers too! Sega - proudly shooting themselves in the foot for over 20 years!

 

[Nzyme32]

While I hate Denuvo as much as the next person - show me the proof that the narrative that the game was delayed specifically to implement this is true - chances are they planned this for a while

 

[Lettuce]

So it got delayed to add Denuvo?, thats a super shitting move Sega if true!!. I know i shouldn't say this but if this is the case i hope it gets cracked almost instantly just to stick the middle finger up to Sega!.

On one hand Sega does this and on the other we're getting stuff like Yakuza remakes and Fist of The North Star!!!.....what gives?

 

[Nzyme32]

This is the message I get. Looks like i can't get a refund from where I pre-purchased it (Bundle Stars) either.

Oh well, I have the Switch version now, so I'll just have to hope this bullshit gets removed at a later date and PC gets some cool mods in the future.

You have to play almost any game online once / activate offline mode while online once - at least this is the behaviour that holds true for pretty much everything other than something using DRM - which would give a very different error rather than Steam at least from everything I've tried over the past few years

 

[Leafhopper]

Then Sega will say "We are disappointed with the PC sales of Sonic Mania..."

And yeah don't blame the devs this is Sega's doing.

 

[Beartruck]

SEGA exec: "Damn it, we handed off this game to a fan and its fantastic! How can we ruin it?"
Underling: "Well, its already finished, but the PC version is due to-"
SEGA exec: "Load that shit up with DRM!"

 

[Juke Joint Jezebel]

I'm genuinely curious on which department adds DRM like Denuvo onto a game after the development team are done with it. Does another group handle that sort of thing?

 

[iGeodude]

Never seen the problem with Denuvo

I haven't either, but people on here love bitching about Denuvo.

 

[GhostTrick]

I haven't either, but people on here love bitching about Denuvo.

As people said already: When you delay your game 2 weeks for Denuvo, it sucks.

 

[Sir Blaming]

I am totally fine with Sega putting in denuvo because we all know it's a waste of money anyway.
But to have a two week delay plus still having bug issues is the biggest letdown here.

 

[CecilRousso]

I haven't either, but people on here love bitching about Denuvo.

With "bitching" implying that you think it's wrong to have concerns about it, and having discussion about the topic?

 

[Juke Joint Jezebel]

As people said already: When you delay your game 2 weeks for Denuvo, it sucks.

Not to mention the reasonable recent greivance about denuvo negatively affecting the performance of RiME.

Denuvo checks for numerous "triggers" when the game is loaded, to ensure that it is a legitimate copy of the game. Baldman said these checks also occur during gameplay with dozens of triggers being called upon per second of gameplay, accumulating "millions" of checks as playtime increased. This process allegedly slows down the game and negatively impacts performance and increases load times.

 

[Claude Augario]

Sega has turned shooting itself in the foot into an art form.

 

[ThatsMytrunks]

Denuvo sucks, I totally agree. I'd like to be able to load this up on my Surface Pro and play it this weekend at my booth, but I won't have a data connection. Also it'll take a little longer for folks to make mods for the game now, but --

Was it delayed to implement Denuvo?

2+ weeks delay just to implement Denuvo.

Fucking god damn it, I knew this is why they delayed it.

A 2 week delay to implement DRM that increases wear and tear on user's machines for a 20$, 320 MB game?

There's zero evidence that the game was delayed to add Denuvo. The port was probably delayed to fix bugs. I noticed they fixed one of the glitches in the PC version that I was consistently running into on Switch.

On GHZ Act 2, if you run to the upper path and back to the beginning, there's a row of spikes that have nothing under them. On switch, the camera fails to lock and shows the blank space. On PC, it doesn't. It's the one in this shot:

That would be the implication, especially with Taxman's tweet around the time that the delay was announced.

I think that's more likely than him making some sort of negative commentary about the game he's about to release.

 

[deadscreensky]

While I hate Denuvo as much as the next person - show me the proof that the narrative that the game was delayed specifically to implement this is true - chances are they planned this for a while

Yeah, I'd love to see a confirmation for this too. Obviously it's already become permanent GAF legend so it won't change the rabble rabble narrative, but it would still be nice for those of us who care to get the truth.

I don't like DRM either, but I don't have a strong religious view on it or anything and this is one of those rare cases where I can understand why a publisher would feel it necessary. (It's a small, cheap game, with a fairly large potential global audience because of the Sonic brand.) Always online -- if true -- is definitely indefensible, though.

 

[GhostTrick]

There's zero evidence that the game was delayed to add Denuvo. The port was probably delayed to fix bugs. I noticed they fixed one of the glitches in the PC version that I was consistently running into on Switch.

On GHZ Act 2, if you run to the upper path and back to the beginning, there's a row of spikes that have nothing under them. On switch, the camera fails to lock and shows the blank space. On PC, it doesn't. It's the one in this shot:

I think that's more likely than him making some sort of negative commentary about the game he's about to release.

They totally delayed it for business reasons.

The other stuff that was added was in spite of the delay, not the reason for the delay. And you can clearly see that on the SteamDB activitity. It only got activity after the release of the game and when first bugs were heard from the console version. That's when these things were patched, because the game was yet to be released and because patch submission is a faster process on Steam than on consoles.

 

[Juke Joint Jezebel]

They totally delayed it for business reasons.

The other stuff that was added was in spite of the delay, not the reason for the delay. And you can clearly see that on the SteamDB activitity. It only got activity after the release of the game and when first bugs were heard from the console version. That's when these things were patched, because the game was yet to be released and because patch submission is a faster process on Steam than on consoles.

Yup, that last bit of the post is pretty suspect. Seems like the delay happened for business reasons rather than the development end.

 

[Unai]

You have to play almost any game online once / activate offline mode while online once - at least this is the behaviour that holds true for pretty much everything other than something using DRM - which would give a very different error rather than Steam at least from everything I've tried over the past few years

This wasn't the case here, though. I've started the game, beated the first boss, exited, sold the card I got, switched Steam to offline mode and tried to launch the game. It shows the message that I need to be online.

 

[Huge Succeeded]

They totally delayed it for business reasons.

The other stuff that was added was in spite of the delay, not the reason for the delay. And you can clearly see that on the SteamDB activitity. It only got activity after the release of the game and when first bugs were heard from the console version. That's when these things were patched, because the game was yet to be released and because patch submission is a faster process on Steam than on consoles.

What business reasons? The only thing I can think of is that, with the simultaneous release of the console versions and a PC version with DRM, some potential customers might have just waited for a crack, but that's still shitty as hell

 

[Daingurse]

Sigh . . . really hope this doesn't effect my experience.

 

[jrcbandit]

Wasn't Sonic just delayed on PC because Sega wants most of the sales on consoles and hope that PC users will double dip? You don't need 2 weeks to add Denuvo, that can be done in like a day or 2.

 

[Juke Joint Jezebel]

Huh, so this might imply that the PC version was farmed out to a Sega in-house studio as Sega are "in charge" of the PC version? This and the DRM could explain the half a month delay.

 

[s_mirage]

I think that's more likely than him making some sort of negative commentary about the game he's about to release.

I think there's a decent chance of that too, which is why I added an edit with the link, but the timing was extremely coincidental given that it was posted the same day that the delay was announced, and it immediately made people suspect DRM on the PC version (which has now come to pass).

 

[iGeodude]

With "bitching" implying that you think it's wrong to have concerns about it, and having discussion about the topic?

There's nothing wrong with having concerns, but usually the ones that hate Denuvo or hate DRM are more vocal than the ones that have no issues with Denuvo or don't care about DRM. From the amount of people that complain about it on these forums you would think any game that has Denuvo is broken game that runs like crap, which isn't necessarily true. If you don't like DRM, then that's fine. Buy it on console or just don't buy it. Also don't justify pirating the game because it has DRM, that's the entire reason we have to deal with DRM.