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[dark10x]

The blur effect is very much the same, but the game overall looks worse, making the blur look worse I suppose. I don't get the difference in technique besides one being in HD and the other not

There are multiple types of blur possible (has nothing to do with "HD").

I believe the type of motion blur found in many modern 360, PS3, and PC games relies either on an accumulation buffer or a pixel shader (for velocity based object motion blur). These effects can be applied to the full screen (for camera based motion) or individual objects. Naturally, object blur is more demanding.

This produces something like...

This is designed to simulate camera exposure. When something is captured to a single frame of film, the camera lens is exposed for a certain length of time. If the object in motion is in one location when the exposure begins and another when it ends, you end up with a blurred object.

An older method used commonly last generation involved the simulation of motion blur though blending each frame with a previous frame, so that previous frames are still visible for a moment (I believe this is referred to as "Frame Feedback"). The below example is worst case. At 60 fps moving into a scene, it doesn't look TOO bad, but it's still a far cry from the above method.

Excite Truck is a different beast in that its blurring effect isn't really motion blur at all. It's simply a frame buffer effect, I believe, similar to depth of field, I suppose. It has nothing to do with velocity or motion at all and simply occupies a portion of the screen when boost is engaged. It gives the impression of motion blur, but is in no way related to what were seeing in the Sonic Unleashed video. The two later PS2 Burnout games used this effect as did NFS-Underground.

The Wii has yet to display anything resembling the first method in real time and it seems unlikely that it ever will for a variety of reasons.

I'm no expert on the subject, by the way (not even close), but I've gathered enough information from various readings and certainly have perceived the difference myself.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

wondering if I will be in a thread is like wondering if GAF will still be here tomorrow.

As long as there is a thread, I shall be in it. I am omnipresent.

Do you have a job?
genuinely curious

 

[yoopoo]

Do you have a job?
genuinely curious

His post count is 35.28 per day, so probably no.

 

[Spectral]

No Wii Wheel support?

:lol :lol :lol

 

[rakka]

There are multiple types of blur possible (has nothing to do with "HD").

I believe the type of motion blur found in many modern 360, PS3, and PC games relies either on an accumulation buffer or a pixel shader (for velocity based object motion blur). These effects can be applied to the full screen (for camera based motion) or individual objects. Naturally, object blur is more demanding.

I think this method would be like rendering an additional 20 or so frames for every frame displayed... how anyone can think last gen hardware can handle this i don't know

Wii's GPU isn't comparable to PC GPUs (or the PS360 GPUs). It's very different, and it even has a few advantages. It's not always about raw performance, you know...

in this case it is

 

[Rlan]

Oh god we're back to diagrams!

 

[dark10x]

I think this method would be like rendering an additional 20 or so frames for every frame displayed... how anyone can think last gen hardware can handle this i don't know

Yeah, the accumulation method requires a LOT of additional frames (variable) to pull off. I believe a hardware accelerated accumulation buffer is required to pull this method off effectively and this was only introduced in DX9 class hardware (and beyond). The GPU used in the Wii does not allow for accumulation buffer acceleration.

Of course, one could attempt similar techniques using a lower number of frames, I'd imagine, and achieve some success. MotoGP on XBOX managed to pull this off with DX8 class hardware, but the number of frames used appeared much lower and the end results appeared as a mix between the accu buffer and frame feedback method.

I'd imagine that memory restrictions and GPU performance would prevent this method from working effectively on Wii, however. It places incredible demands on the GPU even when accelerated. The Wii doesn't even offer THAT much.

Again, I only mention this in regards to the Unleashed footage shown thus far. Someone suggested that perhaps it was actually Wii footage and I presented the motion blur (used in the video) as evidence as to why it could NOT be Wii footage.

 

[Innotech]

Yeah, the accumulation method requires a LOT of additional frames (variable) to pull off. I believe a hardware accelerated accumulation buffer is required to pull this method off effectively and this was only introduced in DX9 class hardware (and beyond). The GPU used in the Wii does not allow for accumulation buffer acceleration.

Of course, one could attempt similar techniques using a lower number of frames, I'd imagine, and achieve some success. MotoGP on XBOX managed to pull this off with DX8 class hardware, but the number of frames used appeared much lower and the end results appeared as a mix between the accu buffer and frame feedback method.

I'd imagine that memory restrictions and GPU performance would prevent this method from working effectively on Wii, however. It places incredible demands on the GPU even when accelerated. The Wii doesn't even offer THAT much.

Again, I only mention this in regards to the Unleashed footage shown thus far. Someone suggested that perhaps it was actually Wii footage and I presented the motion blur (used in the video) as evidence as to why it could NOT be Wii footage.

who the hell claimed that was wii footage?

 

[Christopher]

who the hell claimed that was wii footage?

you did

 

[dark10x]

who the hell claimed that was wii footage?

It wasn't a claim so much as a question...

Yes it would, so are the leaked screenies actually confirmed Ps360 shots or could they just be bullshots so to speak?

I was simply ruling out all possibility that the shots and video footage (same source) were taken from Wii and that was one of the examples I used. Someone then claimed I was wrong (regarding motion blur).

 

[Hero of Legend]

I'm guessing Secret Rings also used that same last-gen blurring during the Speed Break portions?

Does it fucking matter in the end?

I'd take this last-gen blurring for the Wii version than nothing.

Really, just make the Wii version as vibrant in color, use the similar glossy model on Sonic as Mario in Galaxy looks similar, make it run in a locked 60 frames in addition to 480p, 16:9, and DPLII, and use the last-gen blurring, and I'm sure we'll have a great looking game here!

Honestly I'm more impressed with the art direction than anything technical in the PS360 versions.

Are the textures really that important in this game as well, as you're very likely to blaze past the level so fast you won't even give a damn about them!

And use some decent shadowing and what shaders the Wii is capable of as well.

I'm sure Sega can do all of what I suggested, hopefully.

Oh, and use what fur shading they'll very likely use for Were Sonic.

 

[nightside]

Considering that was the only version in existence...they HAD to show something.

to a nintendo magazine?

nah..probably they don't even have wii screens yet...

 

[dark10x]

I'm guessing Secret Rings also used that same last-gen blurring during the Speed Break portions?

Does it fucking matter in the end?

I'd take this last-gen blurring for the Wii version than nothing.

They don't need blur at all. It was simply evidence that the footage was not taken from Wii.

Frame feedback blur would look awful in a side scroller, so I hope they avoid using it on the Wii.

 

[RJT]

I hate motion blur. Especially on FPSs...

 

[M3d10n]

Yeah, the accumulation method requires a LOT of additional frames (variable) to pull off. I believe a hardware accelerated accumulation buffer is required to pull this method off effectively and this was only introduced in DX9 class hardware (and beyond). The GPU used in the Wii does not allow for accumulation buffer acceleration.

No, no, the blur used in Crysis, Lost Planet and many other games doesn't use accumulation buffers (which would be "true" motion blur, as done by offline renderers). Redrawing the same frame several times in full detail is completely prohibitive specially on modern hardware where each pixel has a high cost due to the complex shaders.

The motion blur you see in most games nowadays is done by drawing all geometry again using a shader which takes the previous and current frame matrices and computes the velocity for each vertex. The geometry is also extruded so it correctly fills the space it traveled through. Then a Photoshop-style direction blur is applied to the screen using the velocity values for each pixel as blur direction/length. It's still a post-processing.

Interesting you mentioned MotoGP. It does motion blur on the textures themselves, using pre-calculated blurred textures for blur directions. Obviously it was limited to 8-tap blur, since the Xbox could only blend 8-textures per pass. The article with the technique is here: http://www.talula.demon.co.uk/detail_blur/detail_blur.html
This trick could probably be done on the Wii, but it wouldn't be very useful for anything other than racing games, where most screen state is occupied by a fast passing ground.

 

[scoobs]

Heres the problem.... Wii can't do HD, so it can't look as good as the 360/ps3 versions.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

To those people who are so adamant in trying to inform us of the wii's threshold: What exactly are you trying to accomplish? That the wii version of a sonic multiplat is going to look bad? Is this supposed to discredit the system and be potentially used for ammo later on?

 

[[Nintex]]

To those people who are so adamant in trying to inform us of the wii's threshold: What exactly are you trying to accomplish? That the wii version of a sonic multiplat is going to look bad? Is this supposed to discredit the system and be potentially used for ammo later on?

They just want to lower their expectations...

I think you should do the same... remember that this is being made by Sonic Team.

 

[JonathanEx]

To those people who are so adamant in trying to inform us of the wii's threshold: What exactly are you trying to accomplish? That the wii version of a sonic multiplat is going to look bad? Is this supposed to discredit the system and be potentially used for ammo later on?

Well, it's really because ONM said it looked pretty much the same. Apparently. I don't pay for that crap.

 

[Teknoman]

I'm guessing Secret Rings also used that same last-gen blurring during the Speed Break portions?

Does it fucking matter in the end?

I'd take this last-gen blurring for the Wii version than nothing.

Really, just make the Wii version as vibrant in color, use the similar glossy model on Sonic as Mario in Galaxy looks similar, make it run in a locked 60 frames in addition to 480p, 16:9, and DPLII, and use the last-gen blurring, and I'm sure we'll have a great looking game here!

Honestly I'm more impressed with the art direction than anything technical in the PS360 versions.

Are the textures really that important in this game as well, as you're very likely to blaze past the level so fast you won't even give a damn about them!

And use some decent shadowing and what shaders the Wii is capable of as well.

I'm sure Sega can do all of what I suggested, hopefully.

Oh, and use what fur shading they'll very likely use for Were Sonic.

Hero of Legend is on the right track.

 

[BlazeHedgehog]

Heres the problem.... Wii can't do HD, so it can't look as good as the 360/ps3 versions.

 

[Haunted]

Heres the problem.... Wii can't do HD, so it can't look as good as the 360/ps3 versions.

Resolution > all. And that's why all PC games look superior to their console counterparts. 360 and PS3 simply can't do higher resolutions.

 

[Koshiro]

I think it's time to throw in the towel on this thread, close it down and start again.

 

[dk_]

Resolution > all. And that's why all PC games look superior to their console counterparts. 360 and PS3 simply can't do higher resolutions.

You play PC games higher than 1920×1080? Nice.

 

[VAIL]

Now that I have seen the screens, it's nothing out of the range of the Wii, the environments are not overly complex, it's just got nice lighting and texture work.

 

[abstract alien]

Resolution > all. And that's why all PC games look superior to their console counterparts. 360 and PS3 simply can't do higher resolutions.

in my opinion, having actual geometry + 60fps is a more important part of the visual experience(aside from the art style). ive never really had an experience ruined by a low resolution, but ive had plenty ruined by having bad geometry(with things just painted on, like cracks for example) or an unstable framerate. To each his own i guess, thats what makes gaming so nice...its really a personal activity.

while we are on the subject, does this game even run at 60fps?

 

[wsippel]

You play PC games higher than 1920×1080? Nice.

Up to 2560 x 1600, actually. And I'm still using a consumer monitor. And 1920 x 1200 isn't exactly uncommon for modern displays. For PCs, there are even 3840 x 2400 displays. Very rare and expensive, but they exist for years now.

 

[Haunted]

You play PC games higher than 1920×1080? Nice.

I was being faceti-

Up to 2560 x 1600, actually. And I'm still using a consumer monitor. And 1920 x 1200 isn't exactly uncommon for modern displays. For PCs, there are even 3840 x 2400 displays. Very rare and expensive, but they exist for years now.

*cough* what he said.

Spoiler

and almost all 360/PS3 games aren't 1080p anyway.

 

[APZonerunner]

I havent played it, so I cant judge gameplay wise. But as far as character design....

See, I dunno. I think with Sonic it's all about how it looks in motion. The Sonic 2K6 (and the other gangly models like SA2) aren't actually bad designs for Sonic as a character, but the problem with them is that his long-ass legs just look fucking stupid in motion and flail around - likewise for his stupidly long, thin stretch-armstrong arms.

As far as Brawl vs Unleashed designs go, it'll depend how the Unleashed design moves. I think the Brawl one is something for a classic Sonic fan to behold, because it looks like a shorter version of the 'modern' green-eyed, more expressive 3D Sonic, but moves like the 2D Genesis Sonic, and it's an amazing sight. Sega should take note.

The Unleashed design is a little close to the Heroes design for my liking. Bigger eyes, a bit fatter - he looks a lot more like retro Sonic. But now I actually can't call that a good thing. I can't imagine him pulling any face but the one there - classic, smiley, retro Sonic. I think one of the great things about the Brawl design is that it's poached the best bits from each design, and the best/only good bit about the modern Sonic design is how expressive he can be with it. I don't know if it's the thicker rims around his eyes or what, but he just seems to animate facially much better that way. We'll see, anyway.

2K6 design can eat a dick, though.

There's so many damn designs of Sonic though Sega just need to consolidate it now. Mario looks the same in everything he's in (save Brawl, where he's just updated to be a bit more 'realistic' so he doesn't look like a freak standing next to say... Captain Falcon) and Sonic has had a different design in pretty much all of his last few games:

SA1 has Sonic very much as he was in 2D - short, but now with green eyes and different sneakers. In SA1 CG movies he was even more different, closer to his SA2 design. In SA2 he got stretched and was given more 'realistic' textures. In Sonic Heroes he returned to SA1 proportions but was now thinner and sported a shiny, cartoony look. Secret Rings (and Shadow) took the Heroes models and retextured them in a similar style to SA2. 2K6 stretched him even more and went even more realistic.

...even Sega Superstars Tennis has a different design. They kinda need to establish how tall/fat Sonic is and how 'realistic' they want his art to be and fucking stick with it.

 

[Amir0x]

Do you have a job?
genuinely curious

Yes, I work at the Tobyhanna Army Depot 60 hours a week or more. I have this job, and a life!

*gasp*

 

[fernoca]

Heres the problem.... Wii can't do HD, so it can't look as good as the 360/ps3 versions.

Well guys, thread over.
Lock, delete thread..since there's no point for more arguments..
The absolute answer was already posted, no need to drag this more.

 

[xs_mini_neo]

Wow, the HD version of her shows all the things that should never ever be on anyones face. I'll take the blemish-free Wii version of Renee.

The Wii version of S:U can look good, but people still bitch about it not looking as good as PS3/X360. ...But then no one cared about looking good when Xbox/GC was ignored last gen. Now it's "lol, Wii graphics." left and right. I wonder what it's like to retroactively troll oneself.

 

[blu]

Interesting you mentioned MotoGP. It does motion blur on the textures themselves, using pre-calculated blurred textures for blur directions. Obviously it was limited to 8-tap blur, since the Xbox could only blend 8-textures per pass. The article with the technique is here: http://www.talula.demon.co.uk/detail_blur/detail_blur.html
This trick could probably be done on the Wii, but it wouldn't be very useful for anything other than racing games, where most screen state is occupied by a fast passing ground.

as useful that technique is, they just re-invented a prior art (early '90s, IIRC) for doing precomputed anisotropic filtering, but theirs is in the temporal domain. as somebody once said, 'nothing new under the sun'.

btw they don't need 8-tap filtering (not to mention they would run out of TUs just for blurring the road); the algorithm interpolates between two adjacent (slerp-wise) angles of precomputed blur (and also several degrees of blur, but for that they found an elegant natural solution).

/off-topic

re those sonic shots, frankly, i don't see anything qualitatively special about them - just lots of geometry, plenty of textures (most notably radiosity lightmaps), and a pleasing-to-the eye bloom filter. and sonic looks hip rim-lit. all done in good anti-aliasing. a capable developer should be able to pull that on the wii, sans the geometric complexity, but with bonus jaggies.

 

[Christopher]

See, I dunno. I think with Sonic it's all about how it looks in motion. The Sonic 2K6 (and the other gangly models like SA2) aren't actually bad designs for Sonic as a character, but the problem with them is that his long-ass legs just look fucking stupid in motion and flail around - likewise for his stupidly long, thin stretch-armstrong arms.

As far as Brawl vs Unleashed designs go, it'll depend how the Unleashed design moves. I think the Brawl one is something for a classic Sonic fan to behold, because it looks like a shorter version of the 'modern' green-eyed, more expressive 3D Sonic, but moves like the 2D Genesis Sonic, and it's an amazing sight. Sega should take note.

The Unleashed design is a little close to the Heroes design for my liking. Bigger eyes, a bit fatter - he looks a lot more like retro Sonic. But now I actually can't call that a good thing. I can't imagine him pulling any face but the one there - classic, smiley, retro Sonic. I think one of the great things about the Brawl design is that it's poached the best bits from each design, and the best/only good bit about the modern Sonic design is how expressive he can be with it. I don't know if it's the thicker rims around his eyes or what, but he just seems to animate facially much better that way. We'll see, anyway.

2K6 design can eat a dick, though.

There's so many damn designs of Sonic though Sega just need to consolidate it now. Mario looks the same in everything he's in (save Brawl, where he's just updated to be a bit more 'realistic' so he doesn't look like a freak standing next to say... Captain Falcon) and Sonic has had a different design in pretty much all of his last few games:

SA1 has Sonic very much as he was in 2D - short, but now with green eyes and different sneakers. In SA1 CG movies he was even more different, closer to his SA2 design. In SA2 he got stretched and was given more 'realistic' textures. In Sonic Heroes he returned to SA1 proportions but was now thinner and sported a shiny, cartoony look. Secret Rings (and Shadow) took the Heroes models and retextured them in a similar style to SA2. 2K6 stretched him even more and went even more realistic.

...even Sega Superstars Tennis has a different design. They kinda need to establish how tall/fat Sonic is and how 'realistic' they want his art to be and fucking stick with it.

I dunno I like that design *shrugs* I think his legs in brawl are pretty long too...

 

[dk_]

Up to 2560 x 1600, actually. And I'm still using a consumer monitor. And 1920 x 1200 isn't exactly uncommon for modern displays. For PCs, there are even 3840 x 2400 displays. Very rare and expensive, but they exist for years now.

Ok, play Crysis or any other Unreal Engine 3 game in that resolution. Good luck.

 

[rakka]

Ok, play Crysis or any other Unreal Engine 3 game in that resolution. Good luck.

Play Crysis on a console. Good luck.

 

[LCGeek]

Ok, play Crysis or any other Unreal Engine 3 game in that resolution. Good luck.

Funny since they have benchmarks showing it's doable at the higher resolutions granted you cut out the aa and af way to fail at the attempt of your message the more you know I guess. Outside of crysis a lot of titles that are on other platforms and not crap optimized can have a lot more eye candy turned on say COD4 or UE3 based games when it comes to pc land. No good luck if he has a machine that can do that high of a res odds are he wouldn't lack the machine to do that at a reasonable level.

 

[dk_]

@ rakka

Play an exorbitant number of games that will never come out on PC on console. Well, or I could just play Crysis. :lol

 

[dk_]

Funny since they have benchmarks showing it's doable at the higher resolutions granted you cut out the aa and af way to fail at the attempt of your message the more you know I guess. Outside of crysis a lot of titles that are on other platforms and not crap optimized can have a lot more eye candy turned on say COD4 or UE3 based games when it comes to pc land. No good luck if he has a machine that can do that high of a res odds are he wouldn't lack the machine to do that at a reasonable level.

Show me those benchmarks.

 

[LCGeek]

@ rakka

Play an exorbitant number of games that will never come out on PC on console. Well, or I could just play Crysis. :lol

PC games have a bigger pool of titles to choose from unless you think all games need to be done by a big name publishers recycling and rehashing all their ideas for the most part since the saturn/playstation/n64 era. Keep trying to hate on the pc platform won't work let alone make it true.

dk my job isn't to inform you of something that can take a few minutes via google and decent search string. I'm certainly not continuing a disingenous discussion where you're only stirring the pot to stir it and not have a legit discussion.

 

[dk_]

I used to like PC gaming, but tell me... how could I love a system that is not able to provide me with the big titles on day 1 or at all.

 

[dk_]

dk my job isn't to inform you of something that can take a few minutes via google and decent search string. I'm certainly not continuing a disingenous discussion where you're only stirring the pot to stir it and not have a legit discussion.

A legit discussion includes references. If you bring up an argument, you should back it up.

 

[LCGeek]

A legit discussion includes references. If you bring up an argument, you should back it up.

So where do you backup a console as in single platform offering more than a pc does with it catalouge of titles? My argument was backed up already by a user confirming he indeed did play at more than 1080p I was reinforcing that. I mentioned benchmarks as another manner of proof but I'm not going through a wellth of single or sli crysis reviews to find a few random nuiggets that only extreme users are going to be taking advantage of. Either you believe or don't which I can tell by your tone you don't but owell ignorance is bliss.

As for your big titles argument that's the jones effect in place if you want all the high profile stuff you're stuck in that bag. If you're a gamer like me that knows the genres you like to play and has too much to fully play going back at least a decade of no conern whether it's a big title for the year I'm gonna get to it when I do.

 

[blu]

Ok, play Crysis or any other Unreal Engine 3 game in that resolution. Good luck.

crysis is not running on ue3.

 

[Lobster]

This thread is ridiculous..

The Wii version will not look anywhere near the Ps3/360 game..

The only possible thing the Wii could replicate is the environments with downgraded graphics.

This is actually a good representation of how the Wii game could look.

 

[bigmakstudios]

This thread is ridiculous..

The Wii version will not look anywhere near the Ps3/360 game..

The only possible thing the Wii could replicate is the environments with downgraded graphics.

This is actually a good representation of how the Wii game could look.

um... no.

The jaggies are nowhere near being that pronounced in Secret Rings.

 

[Rlan]

This thread is ridiculous..

The Wii version will not look anywhere near the Ps3/360 game..

The only possible thing the Wii could replicate is the environments with downgraded graphics.

This is actually a good representation of how the Wii game could look.

You're saying this thread is rediculous and YOU are the one posting horribly degraded resolution screenshots with the brightness shot up!

JUST WAIT FOR ACTUAL PICTURES :lol

 

[temjin]

This thread is ridiculous..

The Wii version will not look anywhere near the Ps3/360 game..

The only possible thing the Wii could replicate is the environments with downgraded graphics.

This is actually a good representation of how the Wii game could look.

That just looks hideos.

 

[Hero of Legend]

Holy shit on a stick!

If this is to be believed, ONM says:

Wii version will be a graphical showcase for the system. The PS2 version is a downgraded version of Wii version, and Xbox 360 and PS3 versions will be a graphically updated version.

http://www.sonicstadium.org/board/index.php?showtopic=33337&st=20

Can anyone with the issue confirm this?!

 

[Lobster]

you guys thought I made that pic? :lol

and I said could look. Obviously its not going to have that many jaggies.

Ask Rakka for a remake if you don't like his pic.

edit: and the games on Ps2 aswell for reason...think about it.