In these days of incredibly arbitrary game titles for sequels, this is rather unique.
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SPOILER Bioshock Infinite SPOILER discussion
- Thread starter thomasmahler
- Start date
Are people thinking Booker is the Songbird?
The only way that could work is if that version of Booker knew Liz was actually Anna and that he somehow made a deal with Comstock to be with her in the form of the bird. However, Booker only learns this because of the events in the game, which conclude with Liz undoing Comstock.
Massive paradox.
The only way that could work is if that version of Booker knew Liz was actually Anna and that he somehow made a deal with Comstock to be with her in the form of the bird. However, Booker only learns this because of the events in the game, which conclude with Liz undoing Comstock.
Massive paradox.
MaximumFlipFlop
Banned
;_;
Amazing.
Don't know if you saw this post from me earlier but it might be worth a read. This is the only way I can rationalize the post-credits scene in a way that does justice to the story.
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
;_;
Man I broke down during that whole part. Just tragic.
Nobody thinks that.
Who says that Booker made a deal to become songbird, a failed half-dead Booker sounds like the perfect candidate to toss into a suit.
Just to emphasize, I actually think it was another Elizabeth in the songbird suit and that she is under sometype of very intense mind control (having to do with music). I believe there was only ever one songbird and that she used tear abilities, unimpeded by the siphon, to just go through space time to wherever she was called. Odd I know, but that's my fan fic
Dance Inferno
Unconfirmed Member
Oh you're right, I remember getting that diary.
Damn, this game has such an intricate plot. I don't know how Levine even began to come up with something like this.
Escape Goat
Member
A priest in the garden where you wake up says "The priest must fill your lungs with water so you can learn to appreciate the air." The playing as multiple Bookers is an interesting theory but I think it cheats the player out of having a cohesive experience as Booker prime.
MaximumFlipFlop
Banned
Wow that irrational games logo is like coming through a tear in the intro. It looks all old, like we are seeing something from the past in modern day.
Dat detail
Dat detail
I... I -think- I'm cool with your second theory. It allows for a potential happy ending, especially if he retained his memories, allowing him to find some redemption now that he's gone through his own personal hell, and it also reconciles somewhat with the issue I outlined earlier.
Not sure if this has been covered yet (there's been something like 20 new pages added to this thread since I went to bed eight hours ago) but I've been thinking about the Baptism scene and the suggestion that Elizabeth is killing all of the possible Bookers.
It made me realise that we'd been thinking about the Baptism as if it were a single event, when actually it consists of several stages, one after the other.
This might have been decided pages back, so stop me if you've heard it.
That's a super-quick chart of how I imagine the Baptism scene plays out. If that reading of it is correct, then it's only ever the already-doomed-to-be-Comstock Bookers who get drowned, as only those ones ever reach the stage of being dunked in the water.
In short, it's less that Elizabeth drowns all the Bookers, and more that she prevents the ones being dunked from ever resurfacing. The final cinematic seems to support this, I think.
Would love to hear thoughts. Or just be slapped down for stating the obvious. Either is fine.
It made me realise that we'd been thinking about the Baptism as if it were a single event, when actually it consists of several stages, one after the other.
This might have been decided pages back, so stop me if you've heard it.
That's a super-quick chart of how I imagine the Baptism scene plays out. If that reading of it is correct, then it's only ever the already-doomed-to-be-Comstock Bookers who get drowned, as only those ones ever reach the stage of being dunked in the water.
In short, it's less that Elizabeth drowns all the Bookers, and more that she prevents the ones being dunked from ever resurfacing. The final cinematic seems to support this, I think.
Would love to hear thoughts. Or just be slapped down for stating the obvious. Either is fine.
I still wish that the final scene didn't toss a wrench in just for the sake of discussion but if we ever find that eitehr of my theories was right or on the right track then I won't feel like the level of story-telling was dumbed down just for the sake of a happy ending/ending where the main character didn't die.
Not sure if this has been covered yet (there's been something like 20 new pages added to this thread since I went to bed eight hours ago) but I've been thinking about the Baptism scene and the suggestion that Elizabeth is killing all of the possible Bookers.
It made me realise that we'd been thinking about the Baptism as if it were a single event, when actually it consists of several stages, one after the other.
This might have been decided pages back, so stop me if you've heard it.
That's a super-quick chart of how I imagine the Baptism scene plays out. If that reading of it is correct, then it's only ever the already-doomed-to-be-Comstock Bookers who get drowned, as only those ones ever reach the stage of being dunked in the water.
In short, it's less that Elizabeth drowns all the Bookers, and more that she prevents the ones being dunked from ever resurfacing. The final cinematic seems to support this, I think.
Would love to hear thoughts. Or just be slapped down for stating the obvious. Either is fine.
In your chart, I still believe she drowned you in between "listen to preacher" and "make decision" As supported by Liz saying "before the choice is made"
I used to think this, but I think it was pointed out that when Elizabeth drowns Booker, he's not actually at the moment of baptism -- he's at some moment before, hence the crowds aren't there, and so Elizabeth kills him off before he can even get to the ACTUAL baptism and make the choice whether to be baptised or not.Not sure if this has been covered yet (there's been something like 20 new pages added to this thread since I went to bed eight hours ago) but I've been thinking about the Baptism scene and the suggestion that Elizabeth is killing all of the possible Bookers.
It made me realise that we'd been thinking about the Baptism as if it were a single event, when actually it consists of several stages, one after the other.
This might have been decided pages back, so stop me if you've heard it.
That's a super-quick chart of how I imagine the Baptism scene plays out. If that reading of it is correct, then it's only ever the already-doomed-to-be-Comstock Bookers who get drowned, as only those ones ever reach the stage of being dunked in the water.
In short, it's less that Elizabeth drowns all the Bookers, and more that she prevents the ones being dunked from ever resurfacing. The final cinematic seems to support this, I think.
Would love to hear thoughts. Or just be slapped down for stating the obvious. Either is fine.
Still, as I said earlier, I think the fact Elizabeth is choosing to kill him, means there must also be a timeline where she chooses not to kill him.
I wouldn't call a happy ending a dumb one, in this case. It's still very bittersweet, on many levels. But it means Booker wasn't denied redemption. And I think that's a more encouraging tale to tell.
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
I like that thought as well.
By no means do I think that a happy ending is automatically dumb. I just feel here that the poetic ending was the one where Booker had to cease to exist entirely to truly prevent himself from becoming a total monster. The redemption is still there because he allows the drowning to occur. When the realization is made, there is no struggle. That is really my other reason for thinking he is drowned before making a choice, he goes under with the final words "I am both...." Until he makes that choice to be baptised or not, he is both Comstock and Booker. Before you open the box, the cat is both alive and dead.
why?
welp, that was a rather disappointing ending for a multi-dimension story. I accidentally saw the pic with all the different Elizabeths before I started playing and this together with with all the hype surrounding the game had me thinking the plot would be somehow more intricate.
I'd thought that too, but we actually hear the preacher saying "...and what name will you take, my son?" immediately after Liz says "...before you are reborn", which to me implies that they've already reached the final part of the ceremony, where the other Booker would've already fled.
Liz's line about "Before the choice is made" throws a bit of a spanner in the works, though.
MaximumFlipFlop
Banned
"No, he DOESN'T row."
I get this now. He is saying it as fact. He knows all outcomes, and has learned he will never row. Cool.
I get this now. He is saying it as fact. He knows all outcomes, and has learned he will never row. Cool.
Sure thing. But... BUT! Even if the universe worked out so that he still lives on, and has a chance at happiness... That wouldn't take away the dramatic impact of him accepting death. In that moment, as you said, he did not struggle -- he was willing to do the ultimate penance to try and right all wrongs caused by himself, the monster. In that moment, he doesn't know the universe will give him a second chance. But the fact he gets one doesn't take away from the weight of the moment where he thought he was going to truly die once and for all.
I'll tell you what bothers me. Elizabeth supposedly has her powers because of her finger as though the flesh and bone of a human being or perhaps any living creature is somehow special, that the universe would know or care that her finger is in another reality is really dumb. It might as well have been a rock that stayed on one side.
If it was simply that she was from somewhere else that might make more sense but then you'd have to give all sorts of powers to all sorts of travellers and it just wouldn't work.
If it was simply that she was from somewhere else that might make more sense but then you'd have to give all sorts of powers to all sorts of travellers and it just wouldn't work.
cpp_is_king
Member
Has anyone gotten an ending other than the one where multiple Elizabeth's kill Booker?
And if we think of it that way then I'll subscribe back to that other theory I had you read earlier
The universe doesn't like the same person existing in two places at once. Makes sense to me. The universe also seems like a lazy gent so s/he doesn't correct him/herself. Instead, s/he gives Liz the power to do it
Oh, you hear the priest in that scene? If so, that does change things a bit. To resolve the tangle you just addressed, Liz could kill him before he is "born again" -- born again as Comstock.
In other words, the priest asks him his name. He has already accepted the baptist. Normally, he'd say "Zachary Hale Comstock." But this time Elizabeth kills him before he can do so.
Meanwhile, the cold feet Booker has already left the scene... Perhaps with some transplanting of memories from the universes that will no longer be, and so perhaps a chance to this time do things right by Anna?
I found that to be pretty strange too. I mean, humans are shedding skin and hair pretty much non-stop, right? So anyone who puts any of themselves through a tear is leaving part of their body on the other side, unless they're in a hazmat suit or something.
Yup, that's pretty much my reading of it. The exact nature of the post-credits scene with (or without!) Anna isn't super clear to me, so I'm open to ideas on it.
Oh, and I didn't mention earlier, but I figured the changes to the Baptism scenario, i.e. the lack of a crowd was simple chalked up to Liz's influence. Just as she was able to manifest as multiple versions of herself, I've no doubt she was able to move/hide/obscure the crowds for her own purposes.
Wishful thinking.
Sorry, that's a in-game thing. I meant to say it doesn't come from nowhere. It's just that he is so protective from Elizabeth and only Booker protects her this much, too.
I do think it is odd that he asks what name you will take but when you first walk in he says "Are you ready to be born again? Are you ready to have your sins washed away?" That is not a question they ask you after they have dipped you in the water.
Edit: Sorry, that second part he exactly says "Are you ready to be cleansed of your sins?" Still the same idea though.
EliteArtist
Member
Nope. There's always a constant ending.
Constants and variables....
It's mostly just a theory by that Lutece. Kind of the universe's way of trying to "course correct" itself, in that hopfully Elizabeth will go back to that universe and shut the door. Or maybe the act of her finger being cut off BY the tear itself lends her the powers? Who knows, we're not meant to fully know because no one fully does. The point is something about that kidnapping caused the power to awaken in her. Maybe.
MaximumFlipFlop
Banned
Will the Circle be Unbroken.
It makes sense.
It makes sense.
Yoshichan
And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might. Such is a lord, I suppose. But here I ask. Do we have a sodding chance?
I loved this...
;_;
Speaking of that song, is it original to this game or did it exist before?
EliteArtist
Member
There's always a tower. Always a man. a city. a twist...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_the_Circle_Be_Unbroken?
Edit: Hah and someone already edited the wiki to show that it was featured in Bioshock.
cpp_is_king
Member
It's a classic gospel hymn that has been remade about 1,000 times. It was even in the movie O' Brother Where Art Thou in its most famous incarnation, sung by The Carter Family. Johnny Cash pays tribute to it as well in his song Daddy Sang Bass, which you can find on Youtube.
Johnny Cash's tribute to it is notable because of his relationship with the Carter Family, so he's making kind of a side reference in there.
This has probably been answered a million times already but, when exitting the arcade, a woman calls out to elizabeth as anna....and it's all put down to a case of mistaken identity. Who was this woman? She didn't seem like a person pulled in through a tear.
It's hardly a major importance to the story other than to clue the player in further than Elizabeth == Anna but regardless, it jumps out as notable when the full story is revealed.
It's hardly a major importance to the story other than to clue the player in further than Elizabeth == Anna but regardless, it jumps out as notable when the full story is revealed.
XANDER CAGE
Member
I've been using a screenshot of all the Elizabeths/Annas staring at Booker as a wallpaper, but I think I need to change it. Luckily the end of this game is a wallpaper factory.
A security officer I believe.
A security officer I believe.
Ah, thank you. I suspected as much. And I love the movie "O' Brother Where Art Thou!"
LOL, so true. And hey, did you change your username?
that they all die from drowning is another parallel
You can actually find an audio diary of that woman in the area. To sum it up, she is the reason that they knew to ambush you later in that area. It seems that her calling Liz "Annabelle" was coincidence and that name was the codeword to let everyone else know who you were.
EliteArtist
Member
I would love a wallpaper of the area with all the towers and multiple bookers/elizabeths walking around. That's my favorite image in the whole game.
cpp_is_king
Member
If I start a new game on ar harder difficulty, will I keep all my weapons and upgrades?
No, the only thing that transfers is the found audio diaries.
