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[LosDaddie]

She's definitely going to tackle temptation and need to grow significantly to triumph in the end, just like Luke did.

What people are suggesting instead is that Rey should turn to the dark side and need to be redeemed, which is something that hasn't actually happened to any major hero in Star Wars that wasn't being set up the entire time for a villain's origin story.

I see it as people wanting Rey to deal with the same struggle as the last 2 main heroes did.

Nobody is extrapolating the significance of her gender. Her gender is significant. Not only across movies as a whole -- because female protagonists are quite rare! -- but because Star Wars has a no good, very bad, terrible, horrible, honest-to-god atrocious history of treating its female characters.

Disagree. Leia is great in the OT.

 

[The Librarian]

I've generally nodded to a lot of these kind of statements, though I have not been involved in this line of discussion much. But because my post (quoted by Breezy) was part of the discourse, I will note that I think TFA was making a specific point about Rey's character in the scene where she fires on the troopers. Specifically that she is impulsive and over confident and that can get her into hot water, as it does a few times.

Recall this exchange with Han:



Now look at how she uses the pistol for the first time:

1) Fires with the safety on
2) Misses her first shot (at both troopers, and then repeatedly when firing at Ren)
3) Decides to fire while hidden, rather than the much wiser course of action - hide

Han tells her she has a lot to learn when he gives her the gun. On her first use of it, she demonstrates that she has a lot to learn. It has nothing to do with Rey being female.

Oh, I agree in that specific instance, but my comment was directed more along the lines of the general point that because she's killed people she must be this, even though our heroes in previous SW films have done the same.

...because it would be a showcase of the nature of duality, and the range of character that an actor(Actress in this case) can showcase, whilst invoking turmoil in the story? And then if that character, through mastering both sides is able to bring balance in a way that her predecessor couldn't?

"To see the range of an actress" isn't any good reasoning at all for Rey going to the dark side, especially because Daisy doesn't have anything to prove.

And how would it add turmoil to the story? Okay, she's dark side now. So what? What does that add? What does she do? What ambitions does she fulfill? Who does she interact with? Why does bringing balance necessarily mean having to go to the dark side?

 

[The Librarian]

Disagree. Leia is great in the OT.

Name another good female character in the OT.

What's the first thing Lando says to Leia in Empire?

 

[Veelk]

The association between women and darkness/evil is not something that I've extrapolated; it's something that's been present in religion, philosophy, literature, art, and society since ancient times and that has consequently led to women being considered subordinate, as holding lesser positions of prestige in society compared to men, as deviant compared to men who are paragons of what it means to be human.

http://www.friesian.com/gender.htm

Beginning with the proposition that Luke (the traditional male hero archetype) was already established as a good, upright, and virtuous hero in the OT, having Rey do anything but live up to his legacy - and she's already doing so in her own, perhaps even more poignant way - would repeat this pattern all over again (she would then fit the archetype of the deviant woman who needs to be redeemed) and erase any potential she has to be a symbol of a shift away from that paradigm.

Contrary to being an "interesting narrative," it would be a completely uninteresting narrative.

This is kinda why I dislike trying to make Rey ALL about her gender differentiation.

On a pure story level, BreezyLimbo isn't wrong. Fall from Grace stories are one of the most conceptually intriguing stories one can think of. That's why Luke had an arc where he went dark in the EU. That's why Paradise Lost is so rad. It's hundreds of stories, and Rey is already an interesting and likable character, and seeing her fall would be interesting because we are fundamentally fascinated by the dark and horrible. We enjoy seeing people break as much as we see them coming together, for various reasons.

So I agree with him that an arc with Rey falling COULD BE interesting. But I also agree with you and Librarian that it shouldn't be done because it would do more damage than is warranted and therefore not worth pursuing in the original material. It's just there's no arguing that on a pure individual character level, it could be a pretty great story. That alone isn't reason it should happen, for reasons you bring up. It's stereotypical. It feeds into the poor image of minorities. There are other opportunities that are just as good. All that. But it's never accurate to say 'this idea wouldn't be interesting', even one like this.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

The association between women and darkness/evil is not something that I've extrapolated; it's something that's been present in religion, philosophy, literature, art, and society since ancient times and that has consequently led to women being considered subordinate, as holding lesser positions of prestige in society compared to men, as deviant compared to men who are paragons of what it means to be human.

http://www.friesian.com/gender.htm

Beginning with the proposition that Luke (the traditional male hero archetype) was already established as a good, upright, and virtuous hero in the OT, having Rey do anything but live up to his legacy - and she's already doing so in her own, perhaps even more poignant way - would repeat this pattern all over again (she would then fit the archetype of the deviant woman who needs to be redeemed) and erase any potential she has to be a symbol of a shift away from that paradigm.

Contrary to being an "interesting narrative," it would be a completely uninteresting and sadly predictable narrative.

And that's not what I'm discussing. At all. Yes I know the significance of being female from a societal and cultural impact, but I'm trying to discuss the story of Star Wars without trying to interject her gender into it. If I wanted to talk about the cultural impact of Star Wars and how TFA is a new leaf of impact, I would have made that clear. But I'm talking about the fictional lore of the movie and what I would like to see in future movies and how I would find it interesting.

If I wanted to discuss the important of Rey and Finn being minorities, I would. But it's grating to have you and others come in and say 'But that's damaging' to why I would find it interesting if the story took this or that route. Extremely grating. What, I can't imagine what route the story would take, without it being damaging to this or that?

Great, that's ok, I'm not discussing that. I want Rey to go dark side because I think it would be interesting. Don't try to extrapolate me being sexist or just 'because she's a girl' out of that.

"To see the range of an actress" isn't any good reasoning at all for Rey going to the dark side, especially because Daisy doesn't have anything to prove.

"To see the range of an actress compared to the bad Anakin we got in PT". Seems like that part skipped over you. Personally, I want to see an interesting take on struggling between the Light and Dark, like Anakin yes but better acted. And Daisy has proven that she can do a range of emotion better than Hayden whatever from the PT.

And how would it add turmoil to the story? Okay, she's dark side now. So what? What does that add? What does she do? What ambitions does she fulfill? Who does she interact with? Why does bringing balance necessarily mean having to go to the dark side?

Finn and the resistance are shocked! Turmoil! She's dark side! It adds her learning dark side powers! She does dark sides things! She fulfills master of the force! She interacts with Snoke and Kylo Ren! Bringing Balance can mean anything and to me what I've learned from the movies that means having to understand both the dark and not shun it like the jedi did!

 

[The Librarian]

And that's not what I'm discussing. At all. Yes I know the significance of being female from a societal and cultural impact, but I'm trying to discuss the story of Star Wars without trying to interject her gender into it.

And that's just it. You can't. You're talking about Rey the character, right? Well, (a major) part of someone's character is their gender.

 

[LegendofLex]

Aren't we already getting that "intriguing evil turn" factor, though, through Kylo and his "lol nope" rejection of an offer for redemption, which is already a far cry from anything we saw with Vader in the PT or the OT?

They're shaping Kylo to be an anti-Rey, particularly when you put the "Snoke is just using you" factor in play. We don't need Rey to also fall into that pattern.

 

[Veelk]

I'm trying to discuss the story of Star Wars without trying to interject her gender into it. If I wanted to talk about the cultural impact of Star Wars and how TFA is a new leaf of impact, I would have made that clear.

Great, that's ok, I'm not discussing that. I want Rey to go dark side because I think it would be interesting. Don't try to extrapolate me being sexist or just 'because she's a girl' out of that.

If I told you "I'm just saying I want to see a story about a watermelon and fried chicken eating black man that has a resemblance to a monkey acting stupidly before being hanged from a tree without interjecting his race into it", you'd tell me to go fuck myself. It's not that there aren't or shouldn't be black men who love watermelon and fried chicken (fantastic foods) or have a resemblance to a particular animal, or stupid ones, and hanging stories can be for reasons that have nothing to do with his color. And a skilled writer can pull all these elements together in a compelling story that has no connection to race within the text itself. But you CANNOT disassociate those elements from their cultural context as stereotypes. You can't.

So please stop this line of saying you don't wnat Rey's gender to be a thing in how she's presented in a story. You can't not make it a thing. There is no separating it.

 

[inm8num2]

Academy Conversations: Star Wars: The Force Awakens

 

[QuantumZebra]

I see it as people wanting Rey to deal with the same struggle as the last 2 main heroes did.




Disagree. Leia is great in the OT.

If by great you mean used as a sex doll in one film and being expressed as a naggy princess the whole time in all of them, sure.

Carrie Fisher played it amazingly well, but her character was written awfully.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Oh, I agree in that specific instance, but my comment was directed more along the lines of the general point that because she's killed people she must be this, even though our heroes in previous SW films have done the same.

Groovy. Because my post was in the mix I wanted to clarify what I was trying to say with it.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

And that's just it. You can't. You're talking about Rey the character, right? Well, (a major) part of someone's character is their gender.

I'm talking about Star Wars as a movie. As a whole. That includes the characters, the impacts these things would have, what path the story would take, etc.

If I told you "I'm just saying I want to see a story about a watermelon and fried chicken eating black man that has a resemblance to a monkey acting stupidly before being hanged from a tree without interjecting his race into it", you'd tell me to go fuck myself. It's not that there aren't or shouldn't be black men who love watermelon and fried chicken (fantastic foods) or have a resemblance to a particular animal, or stupid ones, and hanging stories can be fine, but you CANNOT disassociate those elements from their cultural context as stereotypes. You can't.

So please stop this line of saying you don't wnat Rey's gender to be a thing in how she's presented in a story. You can't not make it a thing.

Yes because wanting Rey go dark side in a star wars movies that has explored that concept in previous movies(poorly) is as egregious as you wanting to see this hypothetical racist epithet.

 

[heliosRAzi]

This thread has taken an interesting turn

 

[QuantumZebra]

Aren't we already getting that "intriguing evil turn" factor, though, through Kylo and his "lol nope" rejection of an offer for redemption, which is already a far cry from anything we saw with Vader in the PT or the OT?

They're shaping Kylo to be an anti-Rey, particularly when you put the "Snoke is just using you" factor in play. We don't need Rey to also fall into that pattern.

I think the Snoke - Ren dynamic will be plenty, plus Rey's backstory on top of it.

I hope Ren turns on Snoke and becomes an anti hero who of course dies at the end to be redeemed ala Vader... but way sooner. Like in VIII.

 

[Veelk]

Yes because wanting Rey go dark side in a star wars movies that has explored that concept in previous movies is as egregious as wanting to see a racist epithet.

No, it's not, because that wasn't my point.

It's not a message about "This is as bad as that". The message is "you can write the kind of story like that without injecting race into the text itself, but you can't remove the context of the culture."

You're trying to seperate the cultural image of women from Rey as a character. And you can't. Stop trying.

 

[The Librarian]

I'm talking about Star Wars as a movie. As a whole. That includes the characters, the impacts these things would have, what path the story would take, etc.

You're also talking about Rey specifically.

 

[QuantumZebra]

I'm talking about Star Wars as a movie. As a whole. That includes the characters, the impacts these things would have, what path the story would take, etc.



Yes because wanting Rey go dark side in a star wars movies that has explored that concept in previous movies(poorly) is as egregious as you wanting to see this hypothetical racist epithet.

Having the first great female lead in a sci-fi since Ripley means she simply cannot fail. That's it. She was already tempted to kill Kylo in the novelization. Don't expect more IMO.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

No, it's not, because that wasn't my point.

It's not a message about "This is as bad as that". The message is "you can write the kind of story like that without injecting race into the text itself, but you can't remove the context of the culture."

You're trying to seperate the cultural image of women from Rey as a character. And you can't. Stop trying.

Because I'm discussing what I would like to see in a future Star Wars film. As it happens, when I imagine something like 'What if X did Y', I'm doing it on the premise that it is just that.

After all, this all started after someone assumed not only my gender, but that the only reason I wanted to see Rey go dark side was 'because she's a female'(sic).

It's like jesus fuck, I can't even discuss what is practically fan fiction at this point without having to be accused of being sexist and being ignorant of society? Good lord.

Like I said, grating.

You're also talking about Rey specifically.

It's almost as if 'her going dark side' comes first and then we could discuss how that would affect the world around her, but there was a sidetrack of 'because she's a girl' and then having the discussion keep veering back into that lane.

 

[Toxi]

One of the areas I think this movie was a bit visually lacking was the ship design.

Kylo Ren's Upsilon-class Shuttle is awe-inspiring, but everything else is either too safe (X-Wings and TIE Fighters) or just not very interesting (Flying boats).

 

[Boke1879]

Having the first great female lead in a sci-fi since Ripley means she simply cannot fail. That's it. She was already tempted to kill Kylo in the novelization. Don't expect more IMO.

She'll definitely be tempted more so in the movies. To not show her being tempted in the movies would be disappointing.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Aren't we already getting that "intriguing evil turn" factor, though, through Kylo and his "lol nope" rejection of an offer for redemption, which is already a far cry from anything we saw with Vader in the PT or the OT?

They're shaping Kylo to be an anti-Rey, particularly when you put the "Snoke is just using you" factor in play. We don't need Rey to also fall into that pattern.

I think so, and it was a great stroke to bring us Ren at the point in his development that we see him. Also, while it was apparently more clear in the novelization, I think there was a parallel between Rey and Ren in their temptations. Ren has his temptation - his "pull to the light" - and rejects it when he kills Han.

Rey is tempted to kill Ren at the end of their duel, but she doesn't. She rejects that path. (One of the few major issues I have with The Force Awakens is the gulf that opens between them at the end of the fight, because it makes it much less clear that she's opting not to kill him.)

 

[heliosRAzi]

Having the first great female lead in a sci-fi since Ripley means she simply cannot fail. That's it. She was already tempted to kill Kylo in the novelization. Don't expect more IMO.

Fail as in going to the Dark Side or fail in general? If it's the former, I can relate. If it's the latter, then she'll be a flat character.

 

[Veelk]

It's like jesus fuck, I can't even discuss what is practically fan fiction at this point without having to be accused of being sexist and being ignorant of society? Good lord.

I don't think anyone said that. We're just explaining why that would not be a good way to go in the official movies.

However, if you want to do it as fanfiction, if you want EU books that only small portions of the fanbase will read, yeah, why not, I'm cool with that. Luke went to the dark side in an EU book. Hell, they had space whales and blinged out otters in the EU world.

If you just want to see minor, tangantial works explore this idea, that's fine, and I've already defended that you in that yes, a fall from grace story from Rey would be interesting.

The only contention here has been that it's not a good directions for the movies to go in.

 

[LosDaddie]

Name another good female character in the OT.

What's the first thing Lando says to Leia in Empire?

Padme was also pretty good, just not as good as Leia.
But sure, if you need it stated, then yes, the old movies are about a male protagonist.

If by great you mean used as a sex doll in one film and being expressed as a naggy princess the whole time in all of them, sure.

Carrie Fisher played it amazingly well, but her character was written awfully.

Opinions & all. I thought Leia was a great character. So did the women in my family. They actually shed some tears when Leia showed up in TFA.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

I don't think anyone said that. We're just explaining why that would not be a good way to go in the official movies.

However, if you want to do it as fanfiction, if you want EU books that only small portions of the fanbase will read, yeah, why not, I'm cool with that. Luke went to the dark side in an EU book. Hell, they had space whales and blinged out otters in the EU world.

If you just want to see minor, tangantial works explore this idea, that's fine, and I've already defended that you in that yes, a fall from grace story from Rey would be interesting.

The only contention here has been that it's not a good directions for the movies to go in.

I don't do the EU stuff, not even the video games. There's a glamour to the silver screen, so me wanting to see it in a movie, or tv show even, is because that's probably the only bit of Star Wars I would consume. Clone Wars I did, it was good fun(The TV show). The books? Eh.

As for the first part, again like Librarian tried to guess at my gender and my intentions, I can't help this is directed at me, and it's a back handed way of trying to say I'm sexist(Because Rey is a girl), and that irks me. It really does.

 

[Veelk]

As for the first part, again like Librarian accused me the first time, I can't help this is directed at me, and it's a back handed way of trying to say I'm sexist, and that irks me.

She probably wouldn't be wrong. Sexism isn't a choice, it's a cultural poison.

I'm a feminist, and I even fall into sexist trappings. For example, when we were talking about earlier, I agreed that Rey shooting those stormtroopers might be considered a bit questionable, even though I completely blanked at the fact that I've seen Han and Luke and Obiwan in the prequels (the good one) be similarly unconcerned with life at various points. That was me treating Rey with more scrutiny than the other male heroes, and I didn't even realize it.

So you probably are viewing Rey differently, atleast a little, because she's a girl. That may not be the sole reason, or even one that registers on your radar, but these trappings are nigh unavoidable, whoever you are, whatever your gender. The most you can do is watch out for them.

 

[The Librarian]

Padme was also pretty good, just not as good as Leia.
But sure, if you need it stated, then yes, the old movies are about a male protagonist.

I said OT, dude. But fine. Let's include the PT. Besides Padme and Leia, name another female character you like.

 

[QuantumZebra]

She'll definitely be tempted more so in the movies. To not show her being tempted in the movies would be disappointing.

I mean like her going full Anakin or something

 

[Veelk]

I said OT, dude. But fine. Let's include the PT. Besides Padme and Leia, name another female character you like.

He likes padme? he considers her a good character? She's a PROMINENT character of the PT, but good?

 

[Boke1879]

I mean like her going full Anakin or something

It'll be more akin to Luke. Who almost slipped to the Dark side in Jedi. I wonder how she'll deal with the revelation of her past?

 

[Aselith]

I said OT, dude. But fine. Let's include the PT. Besides Padme and Leia, name another female character you like.

Oola ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

 

[BreezyLimbo]

She probably wouldn't be wrong. Sexism isn't a choice, it's a cultural poison.

I'm a feminist, and I even fall into sexist trappings. For example, when we were talking about earlier, I agreed that Rey shooting those stormtroopers might be considered a bit questionable, even though I completely blanked at the fact that I've seen Han and Luke and Obiwan in the prequels (the good one) be similarly unconcerned with life at various points. That was me treating Rey with more scrutiny than the other male heroes, and I didn't even realize it.

So you probably are viewing Rey differently, atleast a little, because she's a girl. That may not be the sole reason, or even one that registers on your radar, but these trappings are nigh unavoidable, whoever you are, whatever your gender. The most you can do is watch out for them.

I'm really not viewing her differently. And I'm trying to tell you that. Like I said, I would've liked if Luke went full dark side, and when they tried it with Anakin they failed completely to make compelling.

 

[The Librarian]

It's almost as if 'her going dark side' comes first and then we could discuss how that would affect the world around her, but there was a sidetrack of 'because she's a girl' and then having the discussion keep veering back into that lane.

That's not a sidetrack. If we weren't talking about Rey specifically, a sidetrack would've been me saying, "yeah, that would be cool and all but that one female protagonist can't go to the dark side."

But you weren't discussing this in the abstract. You were talking about Rey. Her, specifically. Her. She's a woman. Gender is one of the most defining aspects of a character.

Feel like I'm just repeating myself at this point.

 

[Boke1879]

Both of you are looking at this in two totally different perspectives so you'll essentially be arguing in circles. I see both points of view and I don't think either of you are wrong.

 

[Shaanyboi]

This thread has taken an interesting turn

We've returned to this topic multiple times since the movie was released.

 

[heliosRAzi]

Both of you are looking at this in two totally different perspectives so you'll essentially be arguing in circles. I see both points of view and I don't think either of you are wrong.

It's like watching two trains move past each other on different tracks.

 

[The Librarian]

Both of you are looking at this in two totally different perspectives so you'll essentially be arguing in circles. I see both points of view and I don't think either of you are wrong.

I understand what Breezy is trying to say, but what you're trying to say and what you are saying are two different things.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

That's not a sidetrack. If we weren't talking about Rey specifically, a sidetrack would've been me saying, "yeah, that would be cool and all but that one female protagonist can't go to the dark side."

But you weren't discussing this in the abstract. You were talking about Rey. Her, specifically. Her. She's a woman. Gender is one of the most defining aspects of a character.

Feel like I'm just repeating myself at this point.

Because she's the main character in the film. I could talk about Kylo Ren going Light side, which I would like to see them try. If Finn was the force user, I would like to see him going Dark Side. If Chew-fucking-bacca was found to be a force user, I'd like to see a Dark Side Chewie.

Figures that the main character being the force user will come into talk when discussing about wanting a force user who is a main character go dark side, huh?

Stop trying to turn this about gender. Full-stop. Yes I'm talking about Rey because she's the main character. Just like I talked about Kylo Ren going light side in I think OT #2. Just like I talked about Yoda being a Cosmic Asshole. It's almost as if I can talk about characters without worrying about their gender or the fact that they're cosmic assholes.

 

[QuantumZebra]

It'll be more akin to Luke. Who almost slipped to the Dark side in Jedi. I wonder how she'll deal with the revelation of her past?

She ran away from the lightsaber, maybe she will run from Luke if he is her father or some other crazy revelation. Her coming to grips with all that and getting hunted down in the process.

 

[The Librarian]

We've returned to this topic multiple times since the movie was released.

To be fair, Star Wars' horrible history of treating women has been rarely discussed, whether it be this board or on a larger scale.

 

[QuantumZebra]

Because she's the main character in the film. I could talk about Kylo Ren going Light side, which I would like to see them try. If Finn was the force user, I would like to see him going Dark Side. If Chew-fucking-bacca was found to be a force user, I'd like to see a Dark Side Chewie.

Figures that the main character being the force user will come into talk when discussing about wanting a force user who is a main character go dark side, huh?

Stop trying to turn this about gender. Full-stop. Yes I'm talking about Rey because she's the main character. Just like I talked about Kylo Ren going light side in I think OT #2. Just like I talked about Yoda being a Cosmic Asshole. It's almost as if I can talk about characters without worrying about their gender or the fact that they're cosmic assholes.

I'm not sure what battle your fighting here. Their point is having Rey fall would be bad. Her gender matters there. Thats it.

To be fair, Star Wars' horrible history of treating women has been rarely discussed, whether it be this board or on a larger scale.

I'm so happy that my favorite franchise and story is the one to tread new ground and bring about these discussions

 

[LosDaddie]

As for the first part, again like Librarian tried to guess at my gender and my intentions, I can't help this is directed at me, and it's a back handed way of trying to say I'm sexist(Because Rey is a girl), and that irks me. It really does.

Don't let that stuff irk you. It wasn't the first time.

I said OT, dude. But fine. Let's include the PT. Besides Padme and Leia, name another female character you like.

😂😂
What is it that you want me to say?

 

[Veelk]

To be fair, Star Wars' horrible history of treating women has been rarely discussed, whether it be this board or on a larger scale.

You know, the funny thing is, while I am against making Rey's viewed characterization wholly dependent on her gender (by which I mean, when I recommend the movie to my under the rock friends, I should be able to say more than "She's a woman" in Rey's favor), I totally understand why you are so defensive about it, and you're not wrong in SW treating women badly. I guess I just don't feel it with the same intensity as I've seen other works do it way, way worse than SW, and they haven't had a minority renaissance yet. Try having gender discussions there, and you get shut the fuck down immediately, because it's pretty much not a relevant topic when there are no women who've manifested as the ideal you're trying to discuss. The reason this has been rarely discussed is because there was no reason to discuss it. Had you brought all this up before Ep 7 was announced in like a SW OT, it'd mostly have been dismissed. Rey's manifestation has given birth to this discussion, and because otherwise it'd still be quietly ignored.

 

[Boke1879]

I'm not sure what battle your fighting here. Their point is having Rey fall would be bad. Her gender matters there. Thats it.

I see where he's looking at this from though. He's looking at this simply through the context of the SW universe. I can't say he's wrong for wanting to see them explore that. It's no different than me saying. I want Finn to be Force Sensitive and go on his own Jedi journey.

Others are looking at a real world application as to why she can't turn. It's how women view her, men view her, children, etc.

IMO no one is wrong in this situation.

 

[QuantumZebra]

I see where he's looking at this from though. He's looking at this simply through the context of the SW universe. I can't say he's wrong for wanting to see them explore that. It's no different than me saying. I want Finn to be Force Sensitive and go on his own Jedi journey.

Others are looking at a real world application as to why she can't turn. It's how women view her, men view her, children, etc.

IMO no one is wrong in this situation.

Yea I mean it's not wrong to want to see that arc but they're just simply stating until we have more heroic female leads, it won't be a good look.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

I see where he's looking at this from though. He's looking at this simply through the context of the SW universe. I can't say he's wrong for wanting to see them explore that. It's no different than me saying. I want Finn to be Force Sensitive and go on his own Jedi journey.

Others are looking at a real world application as to why she can't turn. It's how women view her, men view her, children, etc.

IMO no one is wrong in this situation.

That's why there was an enjoyable tangent in this discourse of Yoda being a Cosmic Asshole and misunderstanding the force(And the reason Anakin fell). Because I'm truly looking at it from the context of the SW canon, and not because Rey is a girl.

 

[The Librarian]

����
What is it that you want me to say?

I said Star Wars has a horrible history of treating female characters. You responded by saying Leia was (is) a great character, as if that was refuting my statement. I then asked you a series of questions as evidence for my statement, all of which you have decided not to answer.

So, I guess I want you to answer my questions for one. Two, I want you to explain to me why Leia being a great character invalidates the following statement: Star Wars has a horrible history of treating its female characters.

 

[Boke1879]

Yea I mean it's not wrong to want to see that arc but they're just simply stating until we have more heroic female leads, it won't be a good look.

But that's why I said both sides will argue in circles because each of them are looking at this from different perspectives.

 

[QuantumZebra]

But that's why I said both sides will argue in circles because each of them are looking at this from different perspectives.

Yep. I don't see the point in arguing as they are really unrelated in a way. Until women are better represented as heroes it won't work to have the shining example turn evil.

 

[The Librarian]

You know, the funny thing is, while I am against making Rey's viewed characterization wholly dependent on her gender (by which I mean, when I recommend the movie to my under the rock friends, I should be able to say more than "She's a woman" in Rey's favor), I totally understand why you are so defensive about it, and you're not wrong in SW treating women badly. I guess I just don't feel it with the same intensity as I've seen other works do it way, way worse than SW, and they haven't had a minority renaissance yet. Try having gender discussions there, and you get shut the fuck down immediately, because it's pretty much not a relevant topic when there are no women who've manifested as the ideal you're trying to discuss. The reason this has been rarely discussed is because there was no reason to discuss it. Had you brought all this up before Ep 7 was announced in like a SW OT, it'd mostly have been dismissed. Rey's manifestation has given birth to this discussion, and because otherwise it'd still be quietly ignored.

And I'll keep bring up this point again and again and again – and again! – as long as its relevant.

Relatedly, take a look at this video:

Academy Conversations: Star Wars: The Force Awakens

Kathleen Kennedy is the only woman on the stage! Girl needs to hire more higher-up gals at LucasFilms.