Dreams-Visions
Member
Star Citizen is fine and will be fine.
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Star Citizen - Fans have dropped $77m on this guys buggy, half-built game [WIRED]
- Thread starter mocoworm
- Start date
Dictator93
Member
It is actually a factually inaccurate statement.
You have to spend 0 USD to see what they are doing.. that is.. as long as you are fine with being updated via video and text instead of playable code.
Which crowdfunded AAA games are you thinking of, exactly?
Meaning you can play what's currently available and see what changes as they release bug fixes. It's not like you have to pay to read the information.
The Jackdog
Member
More_Badass
Member
It's really not any different than backing a Kickstarter and thus being able to get backer-only updates and access to backer builds
DrROBschiz
Member
The Jackdog
Member
Oh well thats different, he said back the game for 30 bucks and we'll see
This game seems a lesson in when feature creep becomes bigger than the project.
Over a year later than its original goal of release I cannot help but feel they have lost all sight of the aim and are rushing headlong into more and more content, starting 20 projects and finishing none, Hell 3 years in and they cannot even have a bug free Fire-Fight demo running.
The joke about The order is very good and sums up how this looks, after reading the article we can see where the money is going. On expensive Filmic commercial to inspire the world lore, worrying about camera angles and effects over just a single vertical slice that you can pick up and play.
But I hope they can pull this off and deliver at least some of the promise (it will never reach the lofty goals some have put on it, even here in this thread) but the attitude from the team and many here is summed up with the Dev quote below from the article.
Just like the OR facebook sale made many feel betrayed, what if this gets snapped up by EA for example as a new Franchise for them with a longer delay and possible platform talks? Right now the aim IMOP should be to deliver a final section of the game with some social aspects for all the backers to be able to explore or fight online so that actual opinions of the game mechanic, production can be seen rather than more money on Pay 2 Win ships or internal higher cash goals with even more creep.
Over a year later than its original goal of release I cannot help but feel they have lost all sight of the aim and are rushing headlong into more and more content, starting 20 projects and finishing none, Hell 3 years in and they cannot even have a bug free Fire-Fight demo running.
The joke about The order is very good and sums up how this looks, after reading the article we can see where the money is going. On expensive Filmic commercial to inspire the world lore, worrying about camera angles and effects over just a single vertical slice that you can pick up and play.
But I hope they can pull this off and deliver at least some of the promise (it will never reach the lofty goals some have put on it, even here in this thread) but the attitude from the team and many here is summed up with the Dev quote below from the article.
Just like the OR facebook sale made many feel betrayed, what if this gets snapped up by EA for example as a new Franchise for them with a longer delay and possible platform talks? Right now the aim IMOP should be to deliver a final section of the game with some social aspects for all the backers to be able to explore or fight online so that actual opinions of the game mechanic, production can be seen rather than more money on Pay 2 Win ships or internal higher cash goals with even more creep.
I watched the videos on the site linked in the OP and my gosh, they are good. But wasting resources on shit like that instead of actual game development sounds like a giant red flag. I am calling it now. This game is going to bomb hard.
Saying something like this actually makes sense if high levels of "backing" result in some form of monetary return if the game actually turns out good, ie. it's an actual investment.
But in this case, all backers get are digital assets and nothing from the game's revenue and profits. Admittedly, those in-game digital assets could result in monetary returns eventually (selling off those in-game ships at absurd amounts to other people if the game turns out to be extremely popular and the ships are limited in supply).
But the thing is, Chris Roberts walks away with all the cash if the game sells well. The whole risk-reward system has been distorted. Videogames development is an extremely risky business proposition these days and Chris Roberts effectively offloaded all that risk to fans and reaps all the rewards. It's truly incredible.
How much did that cost?
Saying something like this actually makes sense if high levels of "backing" result in some form of monetary return if the game actually turns out good, ie. it's an actual investment.
But in this case, all backers get are digital assets and nothing from the game's revenue and profits. Admittedly, those in-game digital assets could result in monetary returns eventually (selling off those in-game ships at absurd amounts to other people if the game turns out to be extremely popular and the ships are limited in supply).
But the thing is, Chris Roberts walks away with all the cash if the game sells well. The whole risk-reward system has been distorted. Videogames development is an extremely risky business proposition these days and Chris Roberts effectively offloaded all that risk to fans and reaps all the rewards. It's truly incredible.
How much did that cost?
DrROBschiz
Member
Well nothing quite like this
Pretty sure this project is the first of its kind at this scale
I mean I could bring up Peter Molynuexs ill fated game but I dont think that was anywhere near the same scale
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
77 Million 0_o
That is nuts
That is nuts
staticneuron
Member
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/project-status
This includes years worth of weekly updates. but not only that there are youtube videos, conference presentations, articles that give time and dates. The thread we have here on haf is huge and filled with info.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=830383
There is so much information out on the game I haven't been able to go through it all myself.
Sigh it is stuff like this that makes people not want to respond to such empty criticism. You do know that basically every module will be launched this year even if they are in early stage. Who, am I kidding, of course you don't know. The hanger and Arena Commander has been out for a while, they have updated AC to prepare for FPS and multi crew ships. Many of the ships you see on the page are actually flyable and the ones you will see first are the ones that will be fighting condition and in the S42 storyline.
It just means you can play AC and see the level of detail and polish that goes into the game and how the game has grown. Seeing a roadmap and understanding why helps to understand the deadlines.
I am starting to guess that alot of critics are more interested in doing drive by commentary instead of taking the time to look. But I have included some links at top of the post so that should help out a little.
If you are talking about the commercial they were apart of backing goals for certain million dollar goals. Considering they do not advertise for this game and the money goes back into development that isn't as absurd as you are presenting it. Even if they made commercials for every ship of the game and it cost them 100k, You honestly think that amount subtracted from 77 million will equal a failure? You think the guy behind Wing Commander, starlancer and freelancer (consultant) has no idea what he is doing?
How would I know? Enough to hire dozen of people to work on it and bought CryEngine licence.
He put money into this game at first stage of the crowdfunding and actually get real investors, but they dont need them anymore or his own money.
Star Citizen is not out. It isn't correct to criticise a game for being half buiilt and buggy when it hasn't even been released. I was indeed taking it a bit too far with that comparison, but it's annoying that a great deal of the criticism of SC is the scale of its budget, especially since you'd expect a larger budget to lead to more development time.
dancrane212
Member
That example wasn't the only time I've seen it happen. I felt it was a more common occurrence than I would expect, could just be I miss the episodes where things are a bit more cut and dry.
Dictator93
Member
I am so sorry to single you out, but this is straight up bullshit. The commercials are made by 1 to 3 man teams and have been used as prototype platforms to test graphical effects and spur on asset development.
Some have been even made for "free" by people attempting to joing the team (the 300i commercial). That is not anywhere near where the money is "actually going."
BouncyFrag
Member
So who here bought one of those fixer upper Javelin Destroyers at $2,500 a pop?
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
That has to be the most expensive dev budget of all time right?
DrROBschiz
Member
No my criticism is that they arent locking down a "budget" in the first place
Sorry but I prefer to see a level of focus and nose to the grindstone
In fact their apparent "transparency" to fans seems like a huge imposed distraction and obligation.
I would rather they laid out a more concrete plan and set a deadline to reveal the work at a later date than just liveblogging the entire creation.
More_Badass
Member
Not even close. GTA V?
There are countless number of stories out there about how games end up in development hell and eventually bombed hard. Seriously, they all read like what was written in the article here as well as the comments in this thread. Just go look up Daikatana or for a more recent example, the Kingdoms of Amalur MMO.
silvermember
Banned
Rockstar has a proven track record of successful games. Rockstar is shackled by their publisher, the publisher doesn't give them all the money at the start, they give them as needed.
Star Citizen, not so much.
Here's an angle I think most people are missing - my return on investment is getting a better game. The expectation is that the majority of the money's going into efficient development, and that seems to be the case (I'm actually a bit surprised they turned down the one-off $100k voice acting). So, for the guy who spends $20k, he's getting $20k worth of ships, but those ships are also in a game that's that much better because he's kicked in those funds.
People often use sports car analogies here. I'd say in this case, people are kicking in toward a better collective Ferrari (the finished game). The ships are a bonus.
Someone wants a premium experience, they can pay for a premium PC. In this case, they can also support someone working to build a premium game. That's how I see it.
Dictator93
Member
1. You are saying they are unfocused and not working hard enough. Really?
2. You are saying that them informing the world and their fanbase is an "imposed distraction and obligation." Rather than... you know... something refeshingly honest.
3. They have a concrete plan and reveal dates. Hence why they constantly update it and have scheduled showings at technical shows, GDC, pax east, etc.
I am not sure why you type that as a response to my calling out someone on their accusation of the game devs spending all their money on "cinematic commercials and camera cuts." Something which is blatantly false.
ProjectCARS did it. Whoever gave more than $45 [which gets you access to game builds and full game] is INVESTOR. We will get share of the game profits [X amount of share over Y years] back via PayPall. There were people who gave over $10K for pCARS, and if game is successful they will get their money back maybe several times over [we can hope the game will sell well].
No. Some games have had marketing budgets that big.
I mean, it's hard enough trying to understand people who spend amounts like that for in-game assets on existing games that are already established and running live. But to spend that kind of money on in-game assets for a game that barely exists? It's utterly insane.
But this and Pillars of Eternity clearly show that the big publishers seriously need to alter or expand their business strategies because there clearly is pent-up demand for all these old-school genres from people who have spending power.
Which of those games had thousands of testers giving feedback years before they launched?
No worries, but it is not at all. as in the article that you read it says
Now these are not freelancers to me although not to say other work is being done for free. At least they stopped at the $100k voice over cost!
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
Oh man your right not even close I guess Destiny was massive as well.
I just remember when Halo 4 launched there was an article that said it was the most expensive game MS had ever made and it was around 40m or something right?
DrROBschiz
Member
Thank you
I was waiting for SOMEONE to shed more light on the subject because I actually find this fascinating
More details the better man
ME3 multiplayer is unimportant crap as you know. ME is all about single player. Also, multiplayer is completely separate from single player. While Squadron 42 may be a standalone, the other 3 games need to be thoroughly integrated, which is overly ambitious and doomed to failure in my opinion.
Render work is completely ok and very different than what we're talking about.
Can you be more specific about which Ubisoft game you're talking and which parts of it were made by which subsidiaries?
In any case, Ubisoft should not be used as an example of how to do things right. I think their games are terrible, buggy messes nowadays, with the exception of Rayman, which I guarantee was made by a single studio.
Holy shit game that won't be ready for 2 years is unfinished, thanks for the update Wired.
This game may or may not live up to the expectations they have set, but trying to make the point that it is worrisome that the game has raised so much money and is not finished yet is ridiculous. Anyone that follows the game and the updates they put out would not be worried about if the game is making progress or not.
Just look at this shit. No other company gives updates on that scale on unfinished products.
If they want to bash the game upon release because it doesn't do what they said it will, I am completely cool with that. But why bash a game that is unfinished because...it's unfinished?
This game may or may not live up to the expectations they have set, but trying to make the point that it is worrisome that the game has raised so much money and is not finished yet is ridiculous. Anyone that follows the game and the updates they put out would not be worried about if the game is making progress or not.
Just look at this shit. No other company gives updates on that scale on unfinished products.
If they want to bash the game upon release because it doesn't do what they said it will, I am completely cool with that. But why bash a game that is unfinished because...it's unfinished?
The details are there, go read and watch CIG documents.
---
MMOs are made by few studios simultaneously. Read about EVE Online for example.
Dictator93
Member
Editted by them, for one commercial. The cinematics team at the time did the in engine set up. That team was two dudes in the top office of CIG's santa monica studio. They detailed it in a video update.
Not my fault the article doesn't show everything.
Also... How does anything in that article instill you with the impression that they are spending all the money on a filmic, cinematic, non.interactive experience with camera cuts? That is your accusation.
The Jackdog
Member
Someone more informed than me can answer this one probably...
but what IS the endgame? when is it a game? Is there any picture of what that is? When is it 1.0 i can go tell joe casual who buys 2 games a year its totally worth jumping into a finished completed polished version of star citizen?
I know the game will probably be expanded on for a long time if its successful, but they have to have some sort of "this version is done, now we iterate" right?
but what IS the endgame? when is it a game? Is there any picture of what that is? When is it 1.0 i can go tell joe casual who buys 2 games a year its totally worth jumping into a finished completed polished version of star citizen?
I know the game will probably be expanded on for a long time if its successful, but they have to have some sort of "this version is done, now we iterate" right?
I've had some good fun with the Arena Commander module, and am hopeful other parts of the game will similarly deliver. That said however, it is unquestionable that there are a great many fans who clearly have unrealistic expectations with regards to features and level of detail. As long as CIG doesn't get too caught up in the expectations and desires of those fans however, I'm sure the game will be fine.
It will eventually be in shops yes. I certainly wouldn't expect that until like late 2016, probably later.
It will eventually be in shops yes. I certainly wouldn't expect that until like late 2016, probably later.
KyanMehwulfe
Member
and the whole 'they own the company and the profits it generates' thing ;p
I feel that their approach to releasing the game (in 'modules') helps them with this. The various modules that are due out this year for instance (like the FPS module and Squadron 42) show that they do have a concrete plan and are working towards deadlines, and the budgets for these sections will have been set a while ago.
DrROBschiz
Member
No
This is why we have a Topic
To discuss and diseminate information in an efficient manner. Stop derailing and expecting me to go down the rabbit hole with you
I just want to hear you explain it to me like we were having lunch together
Pitch it man
Full release is scheduled for 2016, I'm guessing it gets pushed back closer to 2017.
Full game is supposed to be the ultimate sandbox game, the goal is to make a game where you can do whatever you want to do that is limited by the game engine, moderated by in game laws and NPC police, and if you want to go full pirate, you should stick to the lawless sectors where you can literally do anything you want.
The game has a FPS component with ship boarding possible, you can trade, race, fight in the army or the fleet, you know...the works.
Also, EXTREME realism is the primary focus of the game. Every single ship component has a physical space it occupies inside the ship, and if a weapon pierces those exact X:Y coordinates where that system is located, it gets damaged or destroyed.
Engines and thruster movement are 100% simulated with physics.
Also, the sense of scale is epic, look at this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ho9n0xaC3Gk
biglittleps
Member
but not finished and bug free game like order.
Dictator93
Member
Well what do you want to know exactly?
In terms of an elevator pitch I would say "3 AAA games for 40 USD"
Alpha is alpha.
And The Order isn't completely bug free. It was mostly a joke post anyways.
DrROBschiz
Member
I also heard they have a tentative 2016 target for a purchaseable game?
Interesting. They showing at E3 this year?
Kickstarter for games can be ok. You just have to be very, very cautious about it and approach it like a risky investment.
For instance, I backed Broken Age and I absolutely loved it and loved the enormous documentary that came with it. I would do it again in a heartbeat.
I backed Might Number 9 (at the minimum amount) and I have no doubt that the final game will be worth those 20 bucks. With that said, I haven't been happy with the lack of documentaries for that one. I believe we were promised 3 of them.
And that's about it. I didn't back anything else.
What makes you think the people who made those games before did not know what was wrong with their games? They clearly knew what was wrong. They just did not have the management skills to structure the development process to achieve what they wanted to achieve.
Chris Roberts created this company from scratch and it's now a 320-employee behemoth with offices across four countries. That is absolutely insane. I don't work in the industry but I understand businesses and I can't imagine the amount of organizational structures and processes that need to be set up in such a short time frame to finish an ambitious game. At that kind of size, things like internal politics and middle management inefficiencies will be kicking in hard as well.
I am playing Pillars of Eternity now and it is a fantastic game that shows what Kickstarter can do for the industry. But it was created with a 13-man team and the size of the team probably expediated the development process a bit as a lot of organizational bullshit can be reduced.