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[Sleeping Lesson]

As an outsider looking in, this project has all the appearance of a speculative investment bubble. Especially with investment gimmicks like the early promotion for lifetime ship insurance and the limited ship quantities that try to convince buyers that this is their chance to get in on the ground floor. It's difficult to trust the opinions of investors to be objective, because they have a vested interest in the project succeeding. If you have spent $2500 on an in-game item, you will desperately want to believe that you are going to get some commensurate value out of it. So when people come along and express skepticism, they get defensive about it. That's a good gut-check for people putting money into this game. If you find yourself getting angry that other people are doubting its success, you are probably not thinking rationally.

You could see the same sort of dynamic here in threads about Bitcoin 16 months ago. Even though we had seen similar bubbles many times in the past, there were a lot of people who believed that this time it would be different. People who posted historical examples of the life cycle of speculative investments were decried as 'haters'. Similarly, people want to believe that this time a game - which vastly increased its ambitions from the original plan, which has gone all-in on feature creep, which sees its release day slipping into uncertainty, which is being developed in pieces by many different studios and is supposed to be patched together into one cohesive whole - will be different. But as someone who is not invested, that does not sound like a recipe for success if history is our guide.

Economic concepts you proved you do not understand:

1. Investment
2. Economic Bubbles
3. Speculation
4. Donations

 

[Dictator93]

As an outsider looking in, this project has all the appearance of a speculative investment bubble. Especially with investment gimmicks like the early promotion for lifetime ship insurance and the limited ship quantities that try to convince buyers that this is their chance to get in on the ground floor. It's difficult to trust the opinions of investors to be objective, because they have a vested interest in the project succeeding. If you have spent $2500 on an in-game item, you will desperately want to believe that you are going to get some commensurate value out of it. So when people come along and express skepticism, they get defensive about it. That's a good gut-check for people putting money into this game. If you find yourself getting angry that other people are doubting its success, you are probably not thinking rationally.

You are likening people supporting this game to an investment with a rational actor model of profit. Kickstarter projects like this are non-profit sharing and have entirely emotional claims to being funded. The similarity to bitcoin is perhaps that they are both "distributed" forms of user-input and support?

Also, I have spent a grand total of 40 USD on this game. Arguing purely that people must retroactively justify their purchase as an investment is rather unfair IMO. Most people are not spending 2,500 on this game.

Thanks for the info, I still see it as the same influence all game makers have, films are the ideal and I agree. It is always the balance that needs to be managed, from this article and my following of the game (not massive but I am interested) I still have no real feel for it other than like Elite and Halo within an MMO but all split off. I get no feeling of "What" the game is and just want to see something from them.

Well, as Robert's explained it he doesn't see films as an ideal type, but rather as a medium with ideal characteristics.

But back on track, perhaps you could play a wing commander game at some point if you are purely interested in game's for single player reasons. It would give you an idea of what squadron 42 could be like. Although the differences in fidelity and gameplay complexity would be rather staggering.
IMO, just wait till they show off Squadron 42 for the first time. It would probably inform your opinion better than anything I have ever typed about the game.

 

[epmode]

Wait, you mean I won't see dividends when this game takes off? What a joke.

 

[dancrane212]

I definitely also want to see campaign footage. I also think campaign footage will be the first time people stop complaining about the game being some sort of ponzy scheme.

The idea that there is a gameplay demo of what is essentially a new WC sitting, completed, on someone's hard drive is maddening. You could even say tragic.

 

[DrROBschiz]

You are likening people supporting this game to an investment with a rational actor model of profit. Kickstarter projects like this are non-profit sharing and have entirely emotional claims to being funded. The similarity to bitcoin is perhaps that they are both "distributed" forms of user-input and support?

Also, I have spent a grand total of 40 USD on this game. Arguing purely that people must retroactively justify their purchase as an investment is rather unfair IMO. Most people are not spending 2,500 on this game.

Do you think he should have put in a donation cap on the game?

Is there a downside to even creating premium backer content in the first place?

Based on the info you guys have shared it doesnt appear to have had a negative impact yet outside of weirding out a few people. I wonder what the long term consequences will be if any

 

[Dr. Kaos]

Oh, so i have to take my time to search for sources, when You just sit and watch? Nope, i dont have time for that.
If You dont know, dont accuse or speculate. If You want to educate Yourself go on. There is tons of dev blog posts about development on EVE Online site and many presentation from their fanfest for example.

As far as I know, Eve is made by a single studio named CCP games in Iceland. That is what the common knowledge is. If you are going to make claims, you should substantiate them.

And I didn't even ask for sources. I just asked for more detail. Just tell us what studios those are, where they're located and explain which part of the game they make. A couple paragraphs will do. No need for sources at all. I will believe you because you're my brother gaffer.

Go on then. Shouldn't take more than a couple minutes. If you can't spare those, then what are you doing posting in this forum, amirite?

 

[Any Questions]

I have been following SC just on youtube and didn't pledge a dime. There are youtuber out there who even made enough content to fills their channel with nothing, but SC contents. Dogfight footages, ships reviews, dogfighting analysis, etc. It's only alpha too. They are doing amazing work for a kickstarter game to me.

Lots of comments here are just drive by post fueled by ignorance. Repeated ad infinitum.

Have read the thread and for me who plays on consoles for convenience I really hope it turns out good. Am considering getting a PC to run this on but will wait till dinner is served with all the trimmings and gravy. Not gonna have time to commit to an organisation but would really enjoy an out there space sim.

Waiting with fingers crossed

 

[R_Deckard]

That feature creep!

er.....

Facial Capture System. We’ve researched a technology that uses a series of cameras to capture real heads and import them into the game. This will let the team more easily create a variety of realistic characters. In addition, the technology is mobile enough to allow us to take it on the road and capture select fans during special events! You can learn more about this technology at Infinite-Realities.

Public Transportation System – Need to get from one place to another but don’t have a starship? We’re building a galactic transportation system. You can travel via transport from system to system in Star Citizen and even ship items (like a ship you need moved to another hangar.) With this stretch goal, we’ll expand this system: star liners, long range transports, charter ships and flyable shuttles!

First person combat on select lawless planets. Don’t just battle on space stations and platforms… take the fight to the ground!

Enhanced Mission Design for Squadron 42 – The team at Foundry 42 has big plans for Squadron 42, and we’re going to provide extra funding to make it a true spiritual successor to Wing Commander! Squadron 42 can go above and beyond anything you’ve seen before. From opening with an epic battle instead of a training patrol to missions that seamlessly combine boarding and space combat, we aim to put you right into the action! Additional funding will let the team realize this, with enhanced mission design and more resources and animations to enhance fidelity.

Know your foe with a Jane’s Fighting Ships style manual free in PDF form to all pledgers.
Manage Space Stations – Players will compete to own and operate a limited number of space stations across the galaxy.
RSI Museum will air monthly, with a new game featured each time!

Every pledger who backs before $17 million will receive a ship upgrade package containing an engine modifier.
Star Citizen will feature an additional flyable ship class, the battlecruiser.

And these are just a few of the mass on the list you linked, I love the "Get free ship, but hurry while stock lasts ones"

As I say great business men and it seems a fool and money is evident here.

 

[The Jackdog]

Is there anything stopping them, legally, from....like 2 years from now just being like "well we cant finish it. sorry." and just walking away with all the money?

 

[DrROBschiz]

Is there anything stopping them, legally, from....like 2 years from now just being like "well we cant finish it. sorry." and just walking away with all the money?

no but the risk awareness has already been well established right?

 

[KKRT00]

As an outsider looking in, this project has all the appearance of a speculative investment bubble. Especially with investment gimmicks like the early promotion for lifetime ship insurance and the limited ship quantities that try to convince buyers that this is their chance to get in on the ground floor. It's difficult to trust the opinions of investors to be objective, because they have a vested interest in the project succeeding. If you have spent $2500 on an in-game item, you will desperately want to believe that you are going to get some commensurate value out of it. So when people come along and express skepticism, they get defensive about it. That's a good gut-check for people putting money into this game. If you find yourself getting angry that other people are doubting its success, you are probably not thinking rationally.

You could see the same sort of dynamic here in threads about Bitcoin 16 months ago. Even though we had seen similar bubbles many times in the past, there were a lot of people who believed that this time it would be different. People who posted historical examples of the life cycle of speculative investments were decried as 'haters'. Similarly, people want to believe that this time a game - which vastly increased its ambitions from the original plan, which has gone all-in on feature creep, which sees its release day slipping into uncertainty, which is being developed in pieces by many different studios and is supposed to be patched together into one cohesive whole - will be different. But as someone who is not invested, that does not sound like a recipe for success if history is our guide.

Most people are sceptical, because they dont know almost anything about the game.
And trust me that most people defending game here, payed less than 60$ for it, but happens that they actively follow the game news and have some clue why game will certainly happen, and be at least good.

 

[tuxfool]

How many years of workdays do you expect 320+ employees to punch in on the same project before they burn out?

The same as any other studio? What is it with you and this line of thought? How does development of this game differ from something like WoW or any other MMO?

 

[DrROBschiz]

The same as any other studio? What is it with you and this line of thought? How does development of this game differ from something like WoW or any other MMO?

Thats a good question

What are the actual similarities and differences? Are they approaching this in the same manner as WoW?

I mean its already been said in there that the development timelines are closing in on 2015/2016 for a released product based on the informed posters in this topic

 

[R_Deckard]

Most people are sceptical, because they dont know almost anything about the game.
And trust me that most people defending game here, payed less than 60$ for it, but happens that they actively follow the game news and have some clue why game will certainly happen, and be at least good.

And I truly hope it is, as I would buy and play. But I cannot help but feel the aim of the company and effort all seem very misplaced.

Fingers well and truly crossed.

 

[The Jackdog]

no but the risk awareness has already been well established right?

youd think, but it seems a lot of people are not even considering that as a possibility.

 

[-SD-]

Since when has Wired resorted to using click-bait headlines?

 

[todahawk]

They've gotten an average of $100 per backer?

Yep, that's nuts. $96 is what they stated in the article iirc.

Having played a fair bit of Arena Commander, I already know the PVP/PVE dogfighting alone will be worth the purchase once it's optimized. Anything greater than that is just gravy.

Hope you're right, I grew up on space sims and I would love a modern day TIE Fighter but I hope this delivers.

Seeing how many millions they can extract from whales for preordering DLC is more interesting than whatever the game will end up. It's a strange social experiment.

No matter how worthy or not Star Citizen may be. They've become incredibly efficient whale hunters to the point of being exploitative. It creeps me out.

This concerns me a bit. It was a bit unsettling when I saw them offer up ships for the prices and saw them getting snapped up... Feels a bit icky.

 

[Dictator93]

The idea that there is a gameplay demo of what is essentially a new WC sitting, completed, on someone's hard drive is maddening. You could even say tragic.

Patience is a virtue. Or something. lol

Do you think he should have put in a donation cap on the game?

Is there a downside to even creating premium backer content in the first place?

Based on the info you guys have shared it doesnt appear to have had a negative impact yet outside of weirding out a few people. I wonder what the long term consequences will be if any

I personally would have been fine with a donation cap. Going to the CIG forums is an interesting exercise. You see people who are rather balanced and rather unbalanced supporting the game at large amounts like that. Some are doing it because they have the money and just like CR, others have an obvious unhealthy addictive personality. It is hard for CIG to discern amongst those two types... So a cap would be appropriate.

Downside to premium backer content? What do you mean by that?

If you mean the long term conseuqences of people having powerful in game ships... then the conseuqneces are dictated by how they pilot those ships and how the NPC and worlds are distributed in the game. The game has a PVP slider and a large amount of NPCs... players will probably end up being not as "powerful" as they imagine.

 

[epmode]

Do you think he should have put in a donation cap on the game?

Well, the ability for people to give far more than the nominal cost of the game is the reason videogame crowdfunding works so it's obviously a good idea. I'm concerned that the final game's economy will be balanced around the big spenders but dealing with that is still a ways away.

In the meantime, those expensive ship announcements are going to bring this budget to $100M in the next year.

 

[tuxfool]

As far as I know, Eve is made by a single studio named CCP games in Iceland. That is what the common knowledge is. If you are going to make claims, you should substantiate them.

And I didn't even ask for sources. I just asked for more detail. Just tell us what studios those are, where they're located and explain which part of the game they make. A couple paragraphs will do. No need for sources at all. I will believe you because you're my brother gaffer.

Um, just about any Ubisoft Game, COD, Battlefield. That is only a small list of games that use interconnected studios globally mostly owned by the same publisher.

There are lots more studios that farm out work to secondary or even tertiary studios, that focus on things like asset creation etc.

 

[fastballspecial]

I can't be the only person who thinks this game will never have a content complete "1.0" release.

 

[DrROBschiz]

youd think, but it seems a lot of people are not even considering that as a possibility.

That would be a VERY big bridge for Roberts to burn and It doesn't appear to be the case

The defenders arguments are compelling and if they have a released product in 2015/2016 then they would be in great shape

 

[Arrage]

I think that they lost the vision... Or at least they messed up with production and deadlines. There is no way that they should even start making FPS sections before the actual core features are finished.

Just because there was a stretch goal of FPS doesn't mean that you should make everything at the same time. At the end of the article, it is said that the game has no end and will be supported/developed forever. Things like FPS levels, lounges and other things that aren't core to the game should be UI and text at launch. Why are the resources drawn away from core space exploration and battles. It will take forever to build all these things for Open Beta release (unofficial launch) or launch release. The entire challenge is going to be making a polished universe, nobody wants repetitive missions and pointless planets.

From the buyer's standpoint, SC already failed to meet their goals. And the bad news are that the actual game isn't coming out any time soon.

 

[DoktorEvil]

Is there anything stopping them, legally, from....like 2 years from now just being like "well we cant finish it. sorry." and just walking away with all the money?

Not that I know of. They completed the KS and IDK if KS would actually go after them.

They can walk away at any point and hightail it to a country that wouldn't extradite em back to the US(maybe Switzerland?)

 

[Nzyme32]

That is some clickbait title right there. For me, it is an unfinished product and I'll remain to judge it as such. What little I have got to try is very promising though. I'll wait for the eventually 2016/17 release to properly judge it

 

[Dictator93]

I think that they lost the vision... Or at least they messed up with production and deadlines. There is no way that they should even start making FPS sections before the actual core features are finished.

Just because there was a stretch goal of FPS doesn't mean that you should make everything at the same time. At the end of the article, it is said that the game has no end and will be supported/developed forever. Things like FPS levels, lounges and other things that aren't core to the game should be UI and text at launch. Why are the resources drawn away from core space exploration and battles. It will take forever to build all these things for Open Beta release (unofficial launch) or launch release. The entire challenge is going to be making a polished universe, nobody wants repetitive missions and pointless planets.

From the buyer's standpoint, SC already failed to meet their goals. And the bad news are that the actual game isn't coming out any time soon.

FPS is a core feature and 1/2 of the action content in the single player game and in the persistent universe. It isn't something slapped on that they have to get out to appease the backers, it is a necessary part of the game they need to develop in order for it to release at all.

 

[inky]

I think that they lost the vision... Or at least they messed up with production and deadlines. There is no way that they should even start making FPS sections before the actual core features are finished..

FPS interaction is half of the game. Everything has to be made taking it into account, even ship interiors.

 

[tuxfool]

Thats a good question

What are the actual similarities and differences? Are they approaching this in the same manner as WoW?

Considering that they hired WoW people to work on the persistent universe, there is a high likelyhood that they're approaching some aspects similarly.

 

[DrROBschiz]

FPS interaction is half of the game. Everything has to be made taking it into account, even ship interiors.

Hope they nail it

Only game that had both in the same game that I can think of is Battlefront... and that game was pretty limited in the space combat sense

 

[jtb]

It's the world's shiniest, glossiest Ponzi scheme.

I wish they didn't nickel and dime the fundraising process to death and just ditched all the glossy garbage and just focused on the core game—I will happily be proven wrong but a game being constructed in modules screams terrible idea to me. but at the end of the day, kudos to Roberts for selling the hell out of it.

 

[Purple Cheeto]

what are they doing with the money

If you read the reviews of Cloud Imperium on Glassdoor it sounds like an awful place to work. Nepotism, poor management, wasted money all over the place.

 

[Grief.exe]

The game is still in pre-alpha so of course it's buggy and half-built. The title is correct, just screams click-bait.

Assuredly, releasing the game in bits and pieces as separate modules will go down as a mistake. They obviously have to devote huge development resources towards grinding out a playable release long before one should be ready.
Constantly creating vertical slices is not conducive to development.

 

[Raticus79]

If you read the reviews of Cloud Imperium on Glassdoor it sounds like an awful place to work. Nepotism, poor management, wasted money all over the place.

Glassdoor doesn't verify the posters. It carries about as much weight as a random pastebin post. Those posts all appeared within a few weeks of each other and it seems likely they were written by the same person.

 

[Zaptruder]

I'll tell you what... those motherfuckers at Wired know how to make some clickbait title.

And like chumps we keep falling for it. It's almost like they've got data analytics that tell them how much we love to fall for that shit.

 

[SniperHunter]

dont get the appeal of this game at all. all the vids i have seen look extremely boring.

 

[viveks86]

Serious question: How many months/years did this game slip from target to be deemed a "failure" by so many backers?

 

[staticneuron]

er.....



And these are just a few of the mass on the list you linked, I love the "Get free ship, but hurry while stock lasts ones"

As I say great business men and it seems a fool and money is evident here.

There are dates on all the goals. The last feature your pointed out was posted November of 2013. And since you were able to find the link within the post I made let me point out again what I said in that same post...

honestly if you read the goals the vast majority of the later ones were something that were achievable because they were going to implement it in some basic form earlier.

So things like FPS combat and Squadron 42 were apart of the original kick starter pitch. Things like that battlecruiser was planned for S42 but not for SC, they just took that over. The rest seem so unfeasable that after two years you would define that as feature creep? How much on that list do you think they cannot attain versus how much they have completed already?

Again like I pointed out before the last 20+ million in terms of goals included many ships and space pets. Some of the biggest stuff has already been underway for some time.

Thats a good question

What are the actual similarities and differences? Are they approaching this in the same manner as WoW?

I mean its already been said in there that the development timelines are closing in on 2015/2016 for a released product based on the informed posters in this topic

Things will be in a released Alpha state. Just like each module so far has been. That lets not only the backers see that it is real but also to those who are skeptical. These release dates are for alphas and do more to help people see what has been done but backers will know that it is not finished.

 

[RK9039]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbZLbb0_RBI&index=21&list=LLdDD0NFaLUm_iNAPLK-O2wg

dat vaporware.

 

[The End]

This is a question I've asked a couple times but have gotten not-so-great answers for:

Let's say I buy the dinky $45 starter fighter set. The game "releases" in alpha later this year, and I start playing it. Will it be possible to unlock the better ships in-game with a reasonable amount of effort, or will this be like grinding a F2P game to avoid paying real money? Will it be possible to buy "insurance" with in-game currency, or will that be something that always requires a real-dollar purchase?

 

[epmode]

If you read the reviews of Cloud Imperium on Glassdoor it sounds like an awful place to work. Nepotism, poor management, wasted money all over the place.

Because 100% anonymous postings on a job site are reliable.

Some of that may be true but there is absolutely no way to comfirm one way or another without a real source.

This is a question I've asked a couple times but have gotten not-so-great answers for:

Let's say I buy the dinky $45 starter fighter set. The game "releases" in alpha later this year, and I start playing it. Will it be possible to unlock the better ships in-game with a reasonable amount of effort, or will this be like grinding a F2P game to avoid paying real money? Will it be possible to buy "insurance" with in-game currency, or will that be something that always requires a real-dollar purchase?

Every in-game item can be earned with in-game currency. Judgements about the actual economy balance are a long way away.

 

[Solid Samus]

Serious question: How many months/years did this game slip from target to be deemed a "failure" by so many backers?

backers are deeming this a failure?

 

[Grief.exe]

This is a question I've asked a couple times but have gotten not-so-great answers for:

Let's say I buy the dinky $45 starter fighter set. The game "releases" in alpha later this year, and I start playing it. Will it be possible to unlock the better ships in-game with a reasonable amount of effort, or will this be like grinding a F2P game to avoid paying real money? Will it be possible to buy "insurance" with in-game currency, or will that be something that always requires a real-dollar purchase?

Don't know if they've released information on the specific balance, but you will be able to buy more ships and insurance for in-game credits.

backers are deeming this a failure?

People who are ignorant to what actually goes into game design will likely deem this as a failure.

It's had a few delays, but it seems like they are making consistent progress.

 

[More_Badass]

Serious question: How many months/years did this game slip from target to be deemed a "failure" by so many backers?

Release dates getting pushed back don't mean much by themselves. Games and movies get pushed back, get dates shifted all the time

But combine that with a lack of updates and progress, yes, it's time to get worried

But Star Citizen hasn't shown that. At all.

 

[Dictator93]

This is a question I've asked a couple times but have gotten not-so-great answers for:

Let's say I buy the dinky $45 starter fighter set. The game "releases" in alpha later this year, and I start playing it. Will it be possible to unlock the better ships in-game with a reasonable amount of effort, or will this be like grinding a F2P game to avoid paying real money? Will it be possible to buy "insurance" with in-game currency, or will that be something that always requires a real-dollar purchase?

Smaller Multi crew ships will take weeks (not weeks of in game time, but like 4 weeks of moderate play) to generate the in game currency for it. Insurance is bought with ingame credits.

backers are deeming this a failure?

Defnitely a "No."

To my knowledge CIG has never announced the game as a total package is delayed or anything like that. They have pushed back module releases though before. Usually by a month each time.

 

[Lord_Balkan]

That seems insane. Where is the money going? Sure i'm being a backseat dev here but come on, 77 million you could hire a whole bunch of quality devs to work on it.

Welcome to Software Development, where throwing more money or more people at a problem doesn't always make it go away faster.

 

[Mudcrab]

dont get the appeal of this game at all. all the vids i have seen look extremely boring.

You don't understand the appeal of space sims?

Serious question: How many months/years did this game slip from target to be deemed a "failure" by so many backers?

Backers aren't the ones calling it a failure. I think the initial pitch was end of 2015 and now it's looking like middle of 2017.

 

[DoktorEvil]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbZLbb0_RBI&index=21&list=LLdDD0NFaLUm_iNAPLK-O2wg

dat vaporware.

Looks pretty. So this is a space sim MMO FPS game?

 

[Grief.exe]

Looks pretty. So this is a space sim MMO FPS game?

Pretty much.

 

[Raticus79]

This is a question I've asked a couple times but have gotten not-so-great answers for:

Let's say I buy the dinky $45 starter fighter set. The game "releases" in alpha later this year, and I start playing it. Will it be possible to unlock the better ships in-game with a reasonable amount of effort, or will this be like grinding a F2P game to avoid paying real money? Will it be possible to buy "insurance" with in-game currency, or will that be something that always requires a real-dollar purchase?

Yes, during a livestream a long time ago, Chris threw out an example "maybe it'll take 60 hours to earn a constellation in-game". That's for a ~$250 ship. Old info and it was just a loose example thrown out there, but I don't think there's been more specific information since then.

Insurance is a relatively small expense using in-game credits. This was mentioned during the discussions on lifetime insurance when people were concerned not having it would be a game-breaking disadvantage.

 

[epmode]

Looks pretty. So this is a space sim MMO FPS game?

Pretty much. Plus a single player campaign like the Wing Commander games but we haven't seen much of it yet.