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Star Wars: The Last Jedi trailer

I think what would have been best for Anakin's ghost is if his ghost wasn't permanent and was just supposed to disappear after some time, unlike Yoda and Obi-Wan (actually I think even they were meant to eventually disappear in the old EU). It would highlight that Anakin redeemed himself for that moment and not forever. Of course, that isn't really something that can be shown in the few minutes of ROTJ's ending.
 

Lizzy

Unconfirmed Member
We are debating morality of a movie character, just using the universe it is set in to explain why he was redeemed. Killing children is awful, we all know that.
That's not what I meant, sorry, I thought my meaning was clear. I meant to say that the Star Wars universe is severely messed up if a character who has slaughtered children can be redeemed. Like, fuck, no, how does that work? I think that's just poor storytelling, and I chalk up the end of RotJ as such. If that's, like, the morality going forward for the Star Wars universe, then, dude, that's seriously screwed up.
Which is why this would've been pretty cool, I feel.
936araW.jpg


It shows us the Force never really forgave him and that even in death, his spirit is still fighting to not go back to the Dark side.
Now this shit right here? This is good.
 

JCHandsom

Member
I'm not sure I want to be part of the Star Wars universe if it takes that approach to morality.

It would be like complaining about workplace safety hazards in Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory.

It's a fantasy story that utilizes a fantasy morality that distinguishes between the good and evil parts of a person as being separate entities.
 

Surfinn

Member
Sure, but that could be said of any character. We could have gotten a trilogy centered around Obi-Wan, The Emperor, Han, Yoda, Lando, Chewie, Wedge, Owen, etc. and they could all conceivably be great if they were executed well enough to justify it (with the understanding that more justification is needed the less important the character).

All I'm saying is that Anakin didn't really warrant that much in the first place. Like, Vader wasn't THAT important in the OT. He was a major villain, but he wasn't by any means the CHOSEN ONE destined to destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force. He was only as important as he was a central figure in Luke's story.

Nah, you can say that it works for Anakin much more so because of the potential of his character. All of those characters you mentioned don't have the complexities of Anakin, who actually DOES choose to fall to the dark side. That's already a much deeper character journey than people who have either been light or dark.

That's why the PT was made in the first place.. to tell that story. How someone can fall to the dark side when they seemingly are set for great thing and incredible successes.

That question of WHY. Why someone would choose this path.. the implications behind it. There are incredible themes to explore there, themes that resonate today, especially considering the current political climate.

Ugh just thinking about it pisses me off. There is so much incredible potential there.

You can easily make three films about this. If Breaking Bad can successfully write a single character's struggle exploring similar themes for FIVE SEASONS, I think GL could have churned out 6 hours worth of story for Anakin evolving into Vader.
 
That's not what I meant, sorry, I thought my meaning was clear. I meant to say that the Star Wars universe is severely messed up if a character who has slaughtered children can be redeemed. Like, fuck, no, how does that work? I think that's just poor storytelling, and I chalk up the end of RotJ as such. If that's, like, the morality going forward for the Star Wars universe, then, dude, that's seriously screwed up.

That's a fair stance, but it's not going to upset most people when it's the underlying belief in most religions, as well as a lot of non-religious philosophies. So I wouldn't find it surprising if it happened in Star Wars.
 

Surfinn

Member
That's not what I meant, sorry, I thought my meaning was clear. I meant to say that the Star Wars universe is severely messed up if a character who has slaughtered children can be redeemed. Like, fuck, no, how does that work? I think that's just poor storytelling, and I chalk up the end of RotJ as such. If that's, like, the morality going forward for the Star Wars universe, then, dude, that's seriously screwed up.

Now this shit right here? This is good.

Which is why "either he redeemed himself or he didn't" doesn't work. It doesn't work the moment he stands by idly while billions of people are murdered in a single moment.
 

Lizzy

Unconfirmed Member
It's a fantasy story that utilizes a fantasy morality that distinguishes between the good and evil parts of a person as being separate entities.
Yeah, I'm not sure this interpretation works. Anakin fell to the dark side because, well, he had the capacity too. It's who he is/was. For god's sake, he also slaughtered all those sand people. A good person doesn't do that!
 

JCHandsom

Member
That's not what I meant, sorry, I thought my meaning was clear. I meant to say that the Star Wars universe is severely messed up if a character who has slaughtered children can be redeemed. Like, fuck, no, how does that work? I think that's just poor storytelling, and I chalk up the end of RotJ as such. If that's, like, the morality going forward for the Star Wars universe, then, dude, that's seriously screwed up.

The best part of RotJ is that it succeeds in granting Vader a redemptive moment after being the biggest bad guy ever.

It does this by reframing Vader as a good person, "Anakin", trapped in a bad person, "Vader" ("I feel the good in him", "I feel the conflict within you", "He's more machine now than man", "He became Darth Vader", etc.)

I suppose it would make more sense to say that "Anakin" was redeemed by freeing him from "Vader". The mask removal scene, the cremation of Vader's suit/burning away the shell, and the Force Ghost/freeing the spirit all support this.

Yeah, I'm not sure this interpretation works. Anakin fell to the dark side because, well, he had the capacity too. It's who he is/was. For god's sake, he also slaughtered all those sand people. A good person doesn't do that!

And that's why the Prequels suck, because they retroactively ruin a ton of the OT, including midichlorians, Ninja Yoda, the ethics of clone soldiers, the Jedi Order being hugely incompetent and/or morally indefensible, and showing Anakin to be an already awful person instead of a good guy who was corrupted/seduced.

I don't lay the blame of the Prequels at the feet of RotJ
 

Theodoricos

Member
Yeah, I'm not sure this interpretation works. Anakin fell to the dark side because, well, he had the capacity too. It's who he is/was. For god's sake, he also slaughtered all those sand people. A good person doesn't do that!

Notice all these horrendous things Anakin did, he did in the prequels.

I'm pretty sure Vader's backstory as a child murderer wasn't conceptualized back in RotJ.

One more reason why the prequels failed so badly. We never got to see Obi-Wan's "good friend".
 

JCHandsom

Member
Well, the major exception here is that he was an accomplice to genocide in IV, which I don't know how that can be redeemed either.

That was "Vader", after "Anakin" was subsumed by his Dark Side.

And again, I don't think RotJ wants us to look back at the Vader in ESb and ANH and say "Well gee, I guess he wasn't such a bad guy after all!" Even assuming that "Anakin" was in control after he tossed Sheev, I don't think he would have gotten off scott free. He probably would have turned himself in or committed suicide out of guilt.
 

Surfinn

Member
It's interesting, because in the SW universe, the gravest sin is to hurt or kill your family. Even though Kylo kills a bunch of innocent kids/adults training to be Jedi, his jumping off point was killing his father. Which is the inverse of Vader saving his son.

Notice all these horrendous things Anakin did, he did in the prequels.

I'm pretty sure Vader's backstory as a child murderer wasn't conceptualized back in RotJ.

One more reason why the prequels failed so badly. We never got to see Obi-Wan's "good friend".

He's also a bad person in ANH when he's second in command and doesn't object to billions of people getting blown out of space

But yeah, it's almost comical how evil they made him in the PT LET'S GET HIM TO KILL KIDS
 

Lizzy

Unconfirmed Member
That was "Vader", after "Anakin" was subsumed by his Dark Side.
It's the same person. This isn't a universe where every human exists in this primitive state and they all have to do terrible things to survive but some are less worse than others. Anakin fell to the dark side because that's who he is. The capacity was there. It's the same thing with Kylo Ren. Kylo Ren is a bad dude. A very, very bad dude. He, too, is an accomplice to genocide. He murdered Han. He knows these things are wrong yet he continues to do them. No redemption for him.
 

Theodoricos

Member
Well, the major exception here is that he was an accomplice to genocide in IV, which I don't know how that can be redeemed either.

By IV, he's become so "twisted and evil" that only the love he has for his son could bring his old self back.

And besides, even Vader himself regrettably says "it is too late for me, son", indicating the hold that the Emperor has over him, and just how much the Dark Side has corrupted him by then.

He's also a bad person in ANH when he's second in command and doesn't object to billions of people getting blown out of space

But yeah, it's almost comical how evil they made him in the PT LET'S GET HIM TO KILL KIDS

Yeah, of course he's still a bad person. He's Darth Vader! That's why the redemption happens in the first place.
 
One more reason why the prequels failed so badly. We never got to see Obi-Wan's "good friend".
The main reason the prequels failed so miserably for me was there is such a disconnect from this child/teenager/young adult Anakin to Vader that I was never able to get over. I don't buy any of it. They never convinced me that was the same person outside of the name.
 

Surfinn

Member
It's the same person. This isn't a universe where every human exists in this primitive state and they all have to do terrible things to survive but some are less worse than others. Anakin fell to the dark side because that's who he is. The capacity was there. It's the same thing with Kylo Ren. Kylo Ren is a bad dude. A very, very bad dude. He, too, is an accomplice to genocide. He murdered Han. He knows these things are wrong yet he continues to do them. No redemption for him.

Yeah, but just cuz they are bad dudes doesn't mean they don't struggle with the good inside of them. That good DID save Luke, but I believe that good in Kylo will just continue to drive him further into madness. But for both characters, their masks symbolize what they've become to cover for the pain and suffering locked inside. In some ways, it IS a facade.

Yeah, of course he's still a bad person. He's Darth Vader! That's why the redemption happens in the first place.

Well

Yeah..
 

Lizzy

Unconfirmed Member
Yeah, of course he's still a bad person. He's Darth Vader! That's why the redemption happens in the first place.
I'm going to nitpick this. Him being evil allows for both redemptive acts and redemption. Vader having a redemptive act isn't the issue. Vader being redeemed is.
 

JCHandsom

Member
It's the same person. This isn't a universe where every human exists in this primitive state and they all have to do terrible things to survive but some are less worse than others. Anakin fell to the dark side because that's who he is. The capacity was there. It's the same thing with Kylo Ren. Kylo Ren is a bad dude. A very, very bad dude. He, too, is an accomplice to genocide. He murdered Han. He knows these things are wrong yet he continues to do them. No redemption for him.

I hope you don't think I'm angling for a Kylo redemption, because I'm not.

All I'm saying is that RotJ puts in the work to show that yes, "Vader" and "Anakin" are distinct halves that were fighting for dominance. Obi-Wan wasn't just being cute when he said "From a certain point of view". Otherwise, Luke's appeals to Vader, his realization at his dark half (The cave on Dagobah? That was a hint towards Vader being Luke's dad and a premonition that he is just as susceptible to becoming like him), his throwing away the lightsaber and refusing to kill his dad like Obi-Wan and Yoda wanted, aka the entire Thrown Room scene doesn't work.

Because you're right, having a mass-murderer, torturing, machine monster be redeemed wouldn't fly. But freeing the good half from the evil influence of the bad half can work. Burn away the suit to free the Force Ghost inside.

Now, whether or not that means redemption is always possible no matter what is a different issue entirely. Kylo, for example, was a reverse of the situation, where his dark "Kylo" half was struggling against his lighter "Ben" half, and the "Kylo" part won out when he shishkebabed Han. Looking at it from a storytelling perspective it would make the most sense to keep him on this path.
 
That's not what I meant, sorry, I thought my meaning was clear. I meant to say that the Star Wars universe is severely messed up if a character who has slaughtered children can be redeemed. Like, fuck, no, how does that work? I think that's just poor storytelling, and I chalk up the end of RotJ as such. If that's, like, the morality going forward for the Star Wars universe, then, dude, that's seriously screwed up.

Part of the problem in this regard is that it's a redemption at death, rather than... actually doing anything to make up for the crimes. There's no indication that Anakin has to undergo any kind of actual penance for what he's done, no purgatory in which he has to wait a small eternity before he might be forgiven by the powers that be. He's not debatable in the way that someone like Martin McGuinness - formerly of the IRA, later deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland, died this year - is, where they have a sordid past but then helped bring about peace, and so it's up to individual interpretation as to whether or not things balance out. All he does is kill the Emperor, then drop off the mortal coil himself; even if one took this mean Anakin himself had now become a better person, the life he's led prior to that point just can't be undone in a single act, and yet him being a ghost - something now explicitly inaccessible to evil in canon - seems to imply just that.
 

Lizzy

Unconfirmed Member
Really all you have to do is remove his force ghost, if you want an easy fix.

I've always found that annoying
Yeah that would be good to remove his ghost.
I hope you don't think I'm angling for a Kylo redemption, because I'm not.
Nah. I just brought up Kylo Ren because I thought it was a useful comparison.
Part of the problem in this regard is that it's a redemption at death, rather than... actually doing anything to make up for the crimes. There's no indication that Anakin has to undergo any kind of actual penance for what he's done, no purgatory in which he has to wait a small eternity before he might be forgiven by the powers that be. He's not debatable in the way that someone like Martin McGuinness - formerly of the IRA, later deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland, died this year - is, where they have a sordid past but then helped bring about peace, and so it's up to individual interpretation as to whether or not things balance out. All he does is kill the Emperor, then drop off the mortal coil himself; even if one took this mean Anakin himself had now become a better person, the life he's led prior to that point just can't be undone in a single act, and yet him being a ghost - something now explicitly inaccessible to evil in canon - seems to imply just that.
Good points.
 

Surfinn

Member
I hope you don't think I'm angling for a Kylo redemption, because I'm not.

All I'm saying is that RotJ puts in the work to show that yes, "Vader" and "Anakin" are distinct halves that were fighting for dominance. Obi-Wan wasn't just being cute when he said "From a certain point of view". Otherwise, Luke's appeals to Vader, his realization that his dark half (The cave on Dagobah? That was a hint towards Vader being Luke's dad and a premonition that he is just as susceptible to becoming like him.), his throwing away the lightsaber and refusing to kill his dad like Obi-Wan and Yoda wanted, aka the entire Thrown Room scene doesn't work.

Now, whether or not that means redemption is always possible no matter what is a different issue entirely. Kylo, for example, was a reverse of the situation, where his dark "Kylo" half was struggling against his lighter "Ben" half, and the "Kylo" part won out when he shishkebabed Han. Looking at it from a storytelling perspective it would make the most sense to keep him on this path.

There is really no reasonable theory that redeems Kylo.
 

Theodoricos

Member
I'm going to nitpick this. Him being evil allows for both redemptive acts and redemption. Vader having a redemptive act isn't the issue. Vader being redeemed is.

If he had lived past his redemption, I'd agree.

But considering he accomplished the ultimate redemptive act - sacrificing his own life, sacrificing everything - for me personally, that was enough to redeem him.

And of course, this is all in the context of a fictional space opera, not real life.
 

Surfinn

Member
If he had lived past his redemption, I'd agree.

But considering he accomplished the ultimate redemptive act - sacrificing his own life, sacrificing everything - for me personally, that was enough to redeem him.

And of course, this is all in the context of a fictional space opera, not real life.

For me, SW has always ridden that line of "it's all a light fantasy" and "wait a second, this person is kind of awful"

And because ESB exists (not even focusing on the PT), I'm really more in the latter camp. It really changed the entire tone of the franchise.
 

Lizzy

Unconfirmed Member
If he had lived past his redemption, I'd agree.

But considering he accomplished the ultimate redemptive act - sacrificing his own life, sacrificing everything - for me personally, that was enough to redeem him.

And of course, this is all in the context of a fictional space opera, not real life.
Let me ask you this. Is there anything you can conceive of that Ben could do that would justifiably redeem him?
 

Theodoricos

Member
Let me ask you this. Is there anything you can conceive of that Ben could do that would justifiably redeem him?

You mean Ben Solo?

I wasn't arguing for his redemption actually, I was just arguing for Vader's redemption.

I guess it would depend on how they handle it. I hate for the new franchise to completely mirror the old one, but short of him sacrificing his life, I don't see how he could be justifiably redeemed.

For me, SW has always ridden that line of "it's all a light fantasy" and "wait a second, this person is kind of awful"

And because ESB exists (not even focusing on the PT), I'm really more in the latter camp. It really changed the entire tone of the franchise.

So you don't think ESB is also light fantasy?
 

Surfinn

Member
You mean Ben Solo?

I wasn't arguing for his redemption actually, I was just arguing for Vader's redemption.

I guess it would depend on how they handle it. I hate for the new franchise to completely mirror the old one, but short of him sacrificing his life, I don't see how he could be justifiably redeemed.



So you don't think ESB is also light fantasy?

Not really. It's tone is quite a bit darker than light anything. It's still a space fantasy but it makes you think about its characters and their decisions. It grounds the story in a way that ANH does not.
 

JCHandsom

Member
There is really no reasonable theory that redeems Kylo.

Sure, because that ship has already set sail.

If "Ben" had won over against "Kylo" on that bridge, I think it could have worked...provided that the cinematic legwork of foreshadowing/framing/lighting had been done for it the same way it was done for his decision to commit fratricide.
 

Einchy

semen stains the mountaintops
I'm 85% sure Kylo will have a redemption arc but I would hope they don't go that route. They so obviously are showing us this redemption arc that it has to be a red herring, right? Like the obvious answer to Rey's parents is that Luke is her dad but I'm sure that won't be the case either since it's too predictable.

I do want Luke to be her dad, though.
 

Surfinn

Member
Sure, because that ship has already set sail.

If "Ben" had won over against "Kylo" on that bridge, I think it could have worked...provided that the cinematic legwork of foreshadowing/framing/lighting had been done for it the same way it was done for his decision to commit fratricide.

Yup. If he wouldn't have murdered Han he definitely could have been redeemed.

I'm 85% sure Kylo will have a redemption arc but I would hope they don't go that route. They so obviously are showing us this redemption arc that it has to be a red herring, right? Like the obvious answer to Rey's parents is that Luke is her dad but I'm sure that won't be the case either since it's too predictable.

I do want Luke to be her dad, though.

Yeah I think it's a definite red herring. That doesn't have to mean his struggles cannot be shown on film or that they will be insignificant, of course.

I think he is so/will be destructive.. not because he DOESN'T care or WON'T care, but precisely because he DOES.

He always will
 
...Also because I'm still on this train of thought, an additional problem in Anakin's sacrifice and whether or not it's a sufficient redemption is that almost every piece of post-ROTJ media, old EU or current canon, has generally displayed that in practical terms his act really doesn't accomplish much at all in the long term. Something that is particularly exacerbated by Lucas having thrown in this big, important prophecy that made it sound like there would some kind of finality in Anakin's final deed. But there isn't, because this is Star Wars, and the collective talents of decades' worth of writers have somehow been unable to conceive of decent and compelling conflicts about good vs evil without explicitly repeating the same two primary factions again and again in most instances. If the redemption of Darth Vader secured general peace for a lifetime, maybe a few centuries, it'd be one thing, but the galaxy can't even get through three decades before the Imperial fanclub rears its ugly head again.
 

Theodoricos

Member
Not really. It's tone is quite a bit darker than light anything. It's still a space fantasy but it makes you think about its characters and their decisions. It grounds the story in a way that ANH does not.

Oh, ESB is definitely darker in tone, but for me at least it doesn't change the genre of the movie series. All movies for me are space opera light fantasy. It doesn't mean they can't have depth, which I'd argue even ANH does, but they're not supposed to be realistic.

That's why Star Wars is so popular in my opinion, because it is the ultimate escapist universe.
 

Surfinn

Member
Oh, ESB is definitely darker in tone, but for me at least it doesn't change the genre of the movie series. All movies for me are space opera light fantasy. It doesn't mean they can't have depth, which I'd argue even ANH does, but they're not supposed to be realistic.

That's why Star Wars is so popular in my opinion, because it is the ultimate escapist universe.

I'm not saying it changes genre. Fantasy is still fantasy, but the tones are CLEARLY different. "light fantasy" or "darker fantasy" are completely subjective in this context.
 

JCHandsom

Member
Yup. If he wouldn't have murdered Han he definitely could have been redeemed.

Right, and that's what I'm getting at with Vader. From a storytelling perspective, Kylo Ren already had his big "Will I? Won't I? Which 'me' will win?" moment that Vader had when Palpatine was electrocuting his son.

It's about how the choice is framed. With Vader, they successfully framed "Anakin" triumphing over "Vader" as a redemptive moment (for "Anakin", not Darth Vader, and only in that moment) because it came at the end of not only the trilogy but a films worth of buildup of Luke working at him and believing in "Anakin" still being in there somewhere. To do it with Kylo either in VIII or IX would be IMO a bad storytelling decision.
 

Lizzy

Unconfirmed Member
...Also because I'm still on this train of thought, an additional problem in Anakin's sacrifice and whether or not it's a sufficient redemption is that almost every piece of post-ROTJ media, old EU or current canon, has generally displayed that in practical terms his act really doesn't accomplish much at all in the long term. Something that is particularly exacerbated by Lucas having thrown in this big, important prophecy that made it sound like there would some kind of finality in Anakin's final deed. But there isn't, because this is Star Wars, and the collective talents of decades' worth of writers have somehow been unable to conceive of decent and compelling conflicts about good vs evil without explicitly repeating the same two primary factions again and again in most instances. If the redemption of Darth Vader secured general peace for a lifetime, maybe a few centuries, it'd be one thing, but the galaxy can't even get through three decades before the Imperial fanclub rears its ugly head again.

You've been on point here. I think Anakin would've been justifiably redeemed if his sacrifice had secured some form of enduring piece.
 

Surfinn

Member
Right, and that's what I'm getting at with Vader. From a storytelling perspective, Kylo Ren already had his big "Will I? Won't I? Which 'me' will win?" moment that Vader had when Palpatine was electrocuting his son.

It's about how the choice is framed. With Vader, they successfully framed "Anakin" triumphing over "Vader" as a redemptive moment (for "Anakin", not Darth Vader, and only in that moment) because it came at the end of not only the trilogy but a films worth of buildup of Luke working at him and believing in "Anakin" still being in there somewhere. To do it with Kylo either in VIII or IX would be IMO a bad storytelling decision.

It wouldn't just cheapen it it will have completely lost its meaning and significance.
 

13thStep

Member
That's not what I meant, sorry, I thought my meaning was clear. I meant to say that the Star Wars universe is severely messed up if a character who has slaughtered children can be redeemed. Like, fuck, no, how does that work? I think that's just poor storytelling, and I chalk up the end of RotJ as such. If that's, like, the morality going forward for the Star Wars universe, then, dude, that's seriously screwed up.

I understand now and lol, agreed.
 

Tuorom

Neo Member
Wait what, I thought Anakin was always the chosen one?

-he has the immaculate conception
-he brings balance to the force by killing Palps (and then dying himself)
 
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