A Link to the Past
Banned
But the Gerudo are indisputably the one race in OoT that was most villainous.
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'Stop Giving Evil Characters Brown Skin'
- Thread starter Shaanyboi
- Start date
But the Gerudo are indisputably the one race in OoT that was most villainous.
Dark skin on evil characters is definitely a contextual thing. While I think it's a trope that naturally bleeds into conversations about real-life racial hierarchies and can thus exacerbate or reinforce existing narratives about darker skinned people as being less trustworthy and moral, I don't think each instance of a dark villain is equally as harmful as the rest. A dark villain in a game with other dark characters is less suggestive than a dark villain in a game without them. This is to say nothing of the context laid down by writing: A well written dark skinned villain is less suggestive than a stereotypical one.
In short, me and my friend can joke that whiteness in Color Splash is- for once- a bad thing while subsequently laughing even harder at the discovery of the evil black paint in the desert bucking our expectation one moment, and then gawk at the utter audacity and offensiveness of Citra as a character in Far Cry 3 the next.
In short, me and my friend can joke that whiteness in Color Splash is- for once- a bad thing while subsequently laughing even harder at the discovery of the evil black paint in the desert bucking our expectation one moment, and then gawk at the utter audacity and offensiveness of Citra as a character in Far Cry 3 the next.
NoKisum
Member
But these days, it's hard to tell if designers, as well as developers and publishers, are actively listening to the community and its issues regarding representation. And after seeing big games like Mass Effect Andromeda and its ultimately shitty choices in ethnic hair for the protag, it feels like no one is listening at all. We need some kind of direct way to let designers, developers, publishers, know exactly what we want and what to avoid so there wouldn't be any need for articles placed in this thread to even exist.
Also, excuse me if there are some grammar/spelling issues, had to switch to mobile for now.
Omg, how do I patch this in WWHD?
Being brown doesn't mean you have some built-in heightened sense for racial insensitivity. Maybe talk to some other brown people...
*raises hand*
...who recognize and are sick of this kind of stuff.
Bobo Dakes
Member
And for the record, I wouldn't have noticed this at all if it weren't for this thread, but the second it was pointed out to me, it clicked. I never looked that closely to the characters.
I'm not mad, I'm not offended, I'm not "triggered", I'm just doing my part to point out the problem with this trope.
I'm not mad, I'm not offended, I'm not "triggered", I'm just doing my part to point out the problem with this trope.
What about if it's overly exaggerated and ridiculous like this sorry guy?
It's already been said before here but stuff like that, Mr Negative, Dark Samus, or Dark Link are all fine. Nobody cares if "darkening" means making them literally a mottled grey or purplish-grey or a literal monochromatic black. It just gets weird when it's more or less the same dude but browner.
I mean Akuma is already a villain. But it also comes from the same shorthand of "sell him as even more evil by making him darker." Atleast it's a more purplish shade, but it comes from the same visual language. Its just not as obviously directly targeted.What about if it's overly exaggerated and ridiculous like this sorry guy?
I might have skimmed over that part in the pages but honestly I wanted to post that to point out it's possibly to do this trope without make it someone that's just brown-skinned
Actually though, in all honesty in this argument I'm actually on the opposite side of this argument. I don't think there are ENOUGH Black Villains. I can understand not wanting people to associate dark skin with evil but honestly beyond people who are just dark-skinned I have a real hard time coming up with a good number of notable and good Black Villains that really impact whatever fiction they are in. So you guys might be sick of it but I want them to go further actually. Give me more of this guy and people like him.
To infer that this is linked to racism might be a stretch. I would pin it as a design choice. Darkness is associated with fear and evil. Darker color pallets are a way of showing this. You can also see it in set design, armour and other things. You should look at the entire context and the whole picture. Not just the hue of the villain's skin.
Are there other ways of showing this? For sure. But it all boils down to aesthetic choice. I wouldn't call it racism.
Are there other ways of showing this? For sure. But it all boils down to aesthetic choice. I wouldn't call it racism.
I might have skimmed over that part in the pages but honestly I wanted to post that to point out it's possibly to do this trope without make it someone that's just brown-skinned
Actually though, in all honesty in this argument I'm actually on the opposite side of this argument. I don't think there are ENOUGH Black Villains. I can understand not wanting people to associate dark skin with evil but honestly beyond people who are just dark-skinned I have a real hard time coming up with a good number of notable and good Black Villains that really impact whatever fiction they are in. So you guys might be sick of it but I want them to go further actually. Give me more of this guy and people like him.
But no one said we don't want black villains... Even the OP says it.
Drillary Clinton
Banned
I'm not going to argue with the POCs who say they don't have a problem with this because it isn't my place to tell them how to feel. But I do think it confirms a lot of non-POC sentiment that this isn't a problem. Like Mr. Morgan Freeman.
Phoenix RISING
Banned
Nice shutdown.
I guess I'm not getting it then. Honestly the issue here seems like Dark Skinned people shouldn't be portrayed as villains, but then there should be more maybe sometimes?
I'm not sure where the nuanced line on this falls but what I do know is I would really enjoy just more Darker-skinned villains that aren't a stereotype.
I can sort of see his point, if dark skin if associated to evil then dark skinned people could uncounsciously seen as evil... but:
-I don't think i have ever seen a evil afro-american character in games.
-the examples he posts are just darker version of asian/caucasic people, they are darker yes but remain asian/caucasic people, their race doesn't change
-it doesn't seem to me that there are many examples of evil darker versions of characters to be honest
-he's very late to the party, classic dark and/or scary and/or ugly and/or demon-like evil is old school, now evil is more often portrayed as beautiful and/or white and/or rich and/or polite and/or angel-like.
-I don't think i have ever seen a evil afro-american character in games.
-the examples he posts are just darker version of asian/caucasic people, they are darker yes but remain asian/caucasic people, their race doesn't change
-it doesn't seem to me that there are many examples of evil darker versions of characters to be honest
-he's very late to the party, classic dark and/or scary and/or ugly and/or demon-like evil is old school, now evil is more often portrayed as beautiful and/or white and/or rich and/or polite and/or angel-like.
It's how it often goes for a lot of issues regarding race. You'll have a bunch of PoCs tell you they find something to be problematic or worse. But if you have a select few that say otherwise, or maybe one of them is famous like Mr. Freeman, guess which group non-PoCs tend to latch onto...
Like you said, the people of color who don't give a fuck are free to do so I guess, but that doesn't magically cancel out those who do give a fuck.
stuff like this is a problem:
Fire Emblem Awakening.
Father:
Son/Daughter:
Edit: All of the antagonist Plegians are dark skinned and all the Plegians that you get in your party including Tharja, Henry, and Robin are all light skinned. I know you can recruit Aversa and Gangrel in the DLC, but shit...
Bobo Dakes
Member
A dark skin villain is fine, the OP mainly doesn't want the corruption of a good character to be portrayed by darkening their skin.
We've gone over this a dozen times now.
Bobo Dakes
Member
We also don't want to see a world where only the dark skinned people are the villains. It paints the picture of dark skinned people are bad, as a opposed to "here's a dark skinned dude that's also a villain.
Sorcerer Supreme
Member
is it racist when urien's skin turns into a metallic bronze/copper materiel at the beginning of a match in 3rd strike? thinking emoji.jpg
but seriously this seems like more click bait from mic.com. the same site that published that bogus injustice 2 article recently.
but seriously this seems like more click bait from mic.com. the same site that published that bogus injustice 2 article recently.
It's no surprise that confusion comes up considering the title of the video/thread and how Scar from the lion king is one of the few examples the video provides.
NoKisum
Member
Put it this way: We're fine with evil dark skin characters. We're not fine with dark skinned palette swaps designated as evil based on said palette swaps.
While I understand the possibility of the problem I haven't seen a single example in this whole topic that truly proves the statement.
Seen some grasping for straws (a clearly suntanned pirate vs a locked up princess and Ganondorf not being green in OoT, the villain from Mulan who is tanned because he's based on a Mongol) that made me laugh.
When I think of colored guys in games the first one that comes to mind is Tyrael in Diablo 3, he's strong, wise, good, badass and an archangel.
Seen some grasping for straws (a clearly suntanned pirate vs a locked up princess and Ganondorf not being green in OoT, the villain from Mulan who is tanned because he's based on a Mongol) that made me laugh.
When I think of colored guys in games the first one that comes to mind is Tyrael in Diablo 3, he's strong, wise, good, badass and an archangel.
Supaidaman
Member
Can't really read the entire thread but this annoys me a lot in Kingdom Hearts, since the bad guy has brown skin and goes around possessing people, making their skin brown (and eyes gold, white hair) too. And no one else in the universe (who's not a disney character) has a darker skin tone.
Drillary Clinton
Banned
I do think it can be very damaging since people who have the mindset that these issues aren't real or serious are going to latch onto the first POC that echos their sentiment. Queue the "look at my African American over here aren't you the greatest?.gif"
Edit: I saw someone mention Aversa and couldn't resist pointing out that she is Waifu.
It is true that the OP could've included some more examples along with the video, or at least add the examples that have been posted. People would probably suffer a lot less headaches from having to discuss it repeatedly, or having to convince others that it's a thing.
Or maybe not.
He's actually not darker at all. He's pale/greyish
Seriously, I've been saying it again and again, but the way the video points out Disney as worst offender is something I can't understand. That they couldn't even provide many examples makes me doubt how widespread this even is.
Camarasketch
Member
It is as simple as character design basics. Light vs Darkness. Good vs Evil.
Dark colored characters are mysterious and sinister.
Dark colored characters are mysterious and sinister.
Drillary Clinton
Banned
Please read the last few pages. I implore you.
Bobo Dakes
Member
He's actually not darker at all. He's pale/greyish
Seriously, I've been saying it again and again, but the way the video points out Disney as worst offender is something I can't understand. That they couldn't even provide many examples makes me doubt how widespread this even is.
You keep bringing up how you don't see it with Disney (fine), while ignoring problematic statements like the one below you which heavily suggest that this is in fact a problem.
You keep saying it's not widespread, but then you also have a bunch of commenters saying "well that's just how it is in lore", I think that demonstrates a widespread issue if the defense for it is "well, that's just how it is".
Bobo Dakes
Member
Please never become a cop.
Drillary Clinton
Banned
I shouldn't have laughed as hard as I did
Bobo Dakes
Member
Some people have said troubling things in this thread out of ignorance (or stubborn lack of empathy), but his statement was just straight up troubling.
The trope is stupid but people are generally idiots and or lack self-awareness and the ability to truly analyze their own thoughts and behaviors, thus we have really stupid arguments about race where apparently NOTHING is racist despite the overwhelming amount of anecdotal and statistical evidence. People are too fucking dumb to realize that the vast, vast, vast majority of racist acts in modern society come from those who don't think they are racist, or that their action is racist. It exists on a more "unconscious" , "subtle conditioning" level. If tomorrow all media started having white/lighter characters as villains every time, and darker characters as righteous, you would all immediately notice it. If it started to affect how they were thought of, ability to get jobs, etc, many white people would quickly change their guns on stuff like this. But they don't get it, and probably don't even have the capacity to get it.
staticneuron
Member
I think the worst thing about this is that for things to change the problem must b recognized. If people don't recognize the issue then things will never change.
Drillary Clinton
Banned
Nah bro Morgan Freeman said stop talking about it. it's good.
wumster3000
Member
Did you happen to think about what the hell you are saying? SMDH.
obvious frivolous dyejobs don't count.
a week of hanging with Daisy and Peach doesn't change 30 years of activity
Part of it has to do with Japanese concepts of purity and corruption, which is partially about racism and partially rooted in Shinto beliefs, which has built itself up into the modern conception, like the "Gyaru" style of fashion, which is also a fetish. You've seen those platinum-haired tan-skinned Japanese models? It's meant to show a Bad Girl who's also slutty, and the darkening of the skin is part of that.
I don't think you should be grouping POCs and non-POCs together like that. Everyone has their own nuanced opinions.
Really we should be talking about people who give a fuck and don't give a fuck, and exclude POC from the conversation. If the discussion wad legitimate it shouldn't matter who was having the conversation.
Back on topic. I think the issue seems to have become incredibly specific. It's not about depicting people with dark skin, that'd okay, but it's not okay to darken someone's skin if they've been corrupted.
Well surely all evil characters have been corrupted in some way, just because we don't see the lighter, non corrupted form does that make it better? They've still been given the dark skin as a design choice to represent the corruption. Why is that any better?
I've seen some statements about dark skinned people that are flat out racist in this thread. The lengths people go to to defend how they perceive artistic tools is distressing, and that's before even entertaining the notion that that's how these few guys see dark skinned people generally.
Apoleptica
Banned
Evil being associated with darkness and good with light has been a part of humanity for thousands of years. It's not about race.
Evil being associated with darkness and good with light has been a part of humanity for thousands of years. It's not about race.
Amazing some peoples' inability to read a thread, and post the same weightless or misdirected arguments, again and again.
Apoleptica
Banned
The argument is neither weightless or misdirected, and it hasn't yet been refuted. Nice attempt at a strawman though.
Drillary Clinton
Banned
Evil being associated with darkness and good with light has been a part of humanity for thousands of years. It's not about race.
I'm fucking crying
I wish you could see the tears flowing from my eyes
The fact that you literally can't see the irony of your own post is what makes it even better. Or it's a not-so-elaborate troll.
That's a reason why it's so prevalent, not a reason why taking that concept and applying it to darkening or lightening skin colour is appropriate.
I mean seriously, take a second to think about what it means to link darker skin colour to more evil. That line of thinking is how people were taught to rationalize the American slave trade, since black people were more afflicted by the curse of Abel.
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