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Strategic Butt Coverings - Tropes vs Women in Video Games
- Thread starter Toa TAK
- Start date
plagiarize
Banned
I must have been hallucinating when playing numerous Tomb Raider games, and playing as Catwoman in the Arkham Games, and playing as Jill in RE:Revelations... and while watching this video too I guess.
Speak for yourself.
*****
In any case, like always the video is great. Though there are some weird choices like Bayonetta and Lollipop Chainsaw which are games that the sexualization is part of the character. That it may suck for some and that there's no parity is another thing. Now other games that are supposed to be either more serious and their selective camera angles and the suspicious costume choices I agree.
Games like Arkham while I may agree with part of it, Batman has a cape and Catwoman doesn't so is not like they designed the characters on purpose to look like that for no reason.
The videos are always great but I still get the impression from watching and stuff she has said previously that many of the arguments are based on stuff she has seen casually or told by others. She did said that she would start to play games but I still wonder if her impression might change based on playing it more than watching.
Like many in here who even feel shame on having others watching them play Bayonetta, but they as the players recognize not only the great quality of the game but the intention of the character.
Lights and Waves
Member
Oui, yes, si. A good meltdown. The internet went wild in the best way possible.
-What's wrong with more man butt? Be if from a quantity perspective or a framing perspective, I'm not sure I understand why more equal opportunity stuff is bad.
-I've always felt it was way too context dependent to say sexualization inherently dehumanizes or "harms" a character (which what I feel she's trying to say but perhaps I misunderstand). Golden Axe is one of many examples that work in her favor (that weird as hell camera pan......) but someone like Bayonetta owns it. It was always 100% clear what the developers were trying to do with classic Lara Croft but her swag levels were still off the charts in many of her appearances. Catwoman has been written as a femme fatale in pretty much every incarnation of the character. I haven't played the Arkham Knight games so maybe the writing for her there is terrible but I would think her being heavily sexualized is like the point? I dunno - like I agree there are a lot of examples, some in the video, where I don't think it makes much sense at all for the sexy angle to be played up by the developers but I feel I've encountered too many awesome fictional women who were also sexy to say that merely because she was sexy that she was a worse character or harder to emphasize with or whatever.
The above aside, I thought the video did a good job trying to get her general point across.
There's nothing to "defend" nor is there anything "abhorrent". You like em or you don't like em. Either opinion is fine
Hyperbole for the lose
I dunno about any sense of objectively sexier (I think sexual preference plays too much into that) but male and female butts are inherently different just as a function of fat distribution and what not. That is to say women often have curves but men rarely do which is going to have some influence in how that plays out in our art for better or worse. Not to say you can't find quality ass on fit dudes though.
If by meltdown you mean incredibly positive reaction? Were you on the same internet I was on when that dropped?
I like the cut of your jib <3
-I've always felt it was way too context dependent to say sexualization inherently dehumanizes or "harms" a character (which what I feel she's trying to say but perhaps I misunderstand). Golden Axe is one of many examples that work in her favor (that weird as hell camera pan......) but someone like Bayonetta owns it. It was always 100% clear what the developers were trying to do with classic Lara Croft but her swag levels were still off the charts in many of her appearances. Catwoman has been written as a femme fatale in pretty much every incarnation of the character. I haven't played the Arkham Knight games so maybe the writing for her there is terrible but I would think her being heavily sexualized is like the point? I dunno - like I agree there are a lot of examples, some in the video, where I don't think it makes much sense at all for the sexy angle to be played up by the developers but I feel I've encountered too many awesome fictional women who were also sexy to say that merely because she was sexy that she was a worse character or harder to emphasize with or whatever.
The above aside, I thought the video did a good job trying to get her general point across.
There's nothing to "defend" nor is there anything "abhorrent". You like em or you don't like em. Either opinion is fine
Hyperbole for the lose
I dunno about any sense of objectively sexier (I think sexual preference plays too much into that) but male and female butts are inherently different just as a function of fat distribution and what not. That is to say women often have curves but men rarely do which is going to have some influence in how that plays out in our art for better or worse. Not to say you can't find quality ass on fit dudes though.
If by meltdown you mean incredibly positive reaction? Were you on the same internet I was on when that dropped?
I like the cut of your jib <3
I feel like the meltdown over Hot Ryu was a positive one in that the gamers who are attracted to men were just overjoyed to see a sexy male character for a change? That's what I took "meltdown" to mean but I could be wrong as I didn't follow the story too closely.
From experience I've always reacted with extreme joy to sexualisation of men in games because it's so uncommon to see a male character designed to appeal sexually rather than as a power fantasy. It's both a feeling of representation for those who are attracted to men, and a departure from the norm.
From experience I've always reacted with extreme joy to sexualisation of men in games because it's so uncommon to see a male character designed to appeal sexually rather than as a power fantasy. It's both a feeling of representation for those who are attracted to men, and a departure from the norm.
Legendary quote of a post right here.
You are literally doing what you accused me of. No one here has stated that sexuality isn't a part of life or that they want to take it away. On the otherhand, you're the one who has reduced women to objects meant to please you. Your immediate jump to the "feminists are militant" argument further leads me to believe you're probably not the kind of person worth taking seriously in any basic conversation.
wait does she not play the games she talks about? WHAT!?!?
Stilton Disco
Member
Good video! Very informative.
What I primarily took away from it was that we definitely need more sexy man butts in games.
Also, the usual need to diversify and reign in the over sexualisation of women in games.
But mostly the sexy man butts.
What I primarily took away from it was that we definitely need more sexy man butts in games.
Also, the usual need to diversify and reign in the over sexualisation of women in games.
But mostly the sexy man butts.
sono
Member
Came for butt covering pictures., watched a video instead.
I am not quite sure what point she is making, is she wanting more male butt ?
See Nathan Drake I guess ?
Walk down the high street, most girls like to show off their butts in tight clothing below a certain age and both sexes are ok with that..
Few guys wear tight jeans.
If I want to play a game with lots of shooting and killing I dont really need to relate closely to the character I am playing as. The style can suit the game, lets not make a big deal here.
Thats all there is to it.
I am not quite sure what point she is making, is she wanting more male butt ?
See Nathan Drake I guess ?
Walk down the high street, most girls like to show off their butts in tight clothing below a certain age and both sexes are ok with that..
Few guys wear tight jeans.
If I want to play a game with lots of shooting and killing I dont really need to relate closely to the character I am playing as. The style can suit the game, lets not make a big deal here.
Thats all there is to it.
Lights and Waves
Member
Yes jfc I edited the original post AND posted a clarifying post right before you sis
sensui-tomo
Member
You don't need to play games to point out flaws you can see in them. Unless you're trying to make another point. One which i have no idea what you're trying to infer.
This is great content,
I agree that there is a clear bias in the material chosen but that seems like the right call. We all use extreme examples to demonstrate the negative aspects of a topic, and considering the uphill battle that these ideas already have the expectation that it should somehow have to be presented without bias to be valid seems completely ridiculous.
I'm not sure I agree that equal opportunity butt prominence would be the wrong move though, that sort of exaggeration feels like it tends to be the first wave of change when trying to alter course on this stuff. I think anyone who believes we will see a paradigm shift in representation doesn't expect it to happen overnight. Maybe more visible, sexy butts on all characters could be the bridge to a better world.
I agree that there is a clear bias in the material chosen but that seems like the right call. We all use extreme examples to demonstrate the negative aspects of a topic, and considering the uphill battle that these ideas already have the expectation that it should somehow have to be presented without bias to be valid seems completely ridiculous.
I'm not sure I agree that equal opportunity butt prominence would be the wrong move though, that sort of exaggeration feels like it tends to be the first wave of change when trying to alter course on this stuff. I think anyone who believes we will see a paradigm shift in representation doesn't expect it to happen overnight. Maybe more visible, sexy butts on all characters could be the bridge to a better world.
Johnny Cage In The Shower
Member
But now we're going beyond sexualization and getting into discussion of demographics in gaming... And this is getting strange, so goin by this..
Which female gaming character would be an ideal example of a "female power fantasy" character and why?
And ...Why do male characters have to look physically fit and bulky to be considered a "power fantasy" characters? Isn't this a form of objectifying men for their physical traits? (just for the sake of argument)
In my defense, none of those were there between the time I saw your post and the time I actually hit "submit reply" on my browser after finishing my multi-quote
It's an argument GamerGaters bring up all the time to attack her and try to discredit her and her arguments. They never address what she actually says. There's a good few Gater-esque comments in this topic really.
Melkezadek
Member
Man, either some people are being extremely sarcastic in this thread or straight up talking out of their asses.
Interesting video. It's something I've always noticed in gaming and has always been a turn off for me. It's not that I don't find the female body sexually appealing, I just don't think it needs to be overemphasized (unless it's just apart of the character I guess).
On the inverse, I do notice that on TV and especially commercials, that the female bottom is usually never focused on for lengthy period of times. The camera always seems to cut away sharply. Doesn't seem to happen much with breasts, but as an ass man, it's something I've recently caught. It could just be me though.
Interesting video. It's something I've always noticed in gaming and has always been a turn off for me. It's not that I don't find the female body sexually appealing, I just don't think it needs to be overemphasized (unless it's just apart of the character I guess).
On the inverse, I do notice that on TV and especially commercials, that the female bottom is usually never focused on for lengthy period of times. The camera always seems to cut away sharply. Doesn't seem to happen much with breasts, but as an ass man, it's something I've recently caught. It could just be me though.
I just find it really weird talking in depth about a game with out really playing first.
Memorabilia
Member
No, I didn't literally argue any such thing. What I said originally was an offhand comment made in an obvious tongue-in-cheek fashion noting the fact that some women do actually enjoy showing off or being admired for their beauty, which is an altogether different point than what you are falsely claiming I was making in order to justify your ridiculous assertion that you've somehow been "offended". What you've done is typical of your type and is a dangerous mode of overbearing political correctness... As well as being the very definition of a straw-man argument. The difference between us is I operate in reality. And you operate in some imaginary universe in your mind where ideas like overt sexuality and respect for women are mutually exclusive. Here's a hint: They're not. Now, kindly stop trying to win an argument by putting words or false assumptions on those who disagree with your over the top political correctness.
That's the point. There is so few sexualized men that the one Ryu alt caused that huge wave of support.
Corronchilejano
Member
Maybe you didn't get the point of the video:
Many games make the butt the center of attention of many female characters while at the same time attempt to remove focus from the mens butts. I don't know if it can be more clear cut than that.
You can talk about how you relate to characters in other threads. This one is specifically about butts.
plagiarize
Banned
While I don't put Lollipop Chainsaw in the same bracket as Bayonetta (since Bayonetta doesn't seem to even attempt to say anything about sexualized women, or gender norms, as Lollipop Chainsaw seems to go out of it's way), the purposeful examples of the tropes are the ones we want to keep.Speak for yourself.
*****
In any case, like always the video is great. Though there are some weird choices like Bayonetta and Lollipop Chainsaw which are games that the sexualization is part of the character. That it may suck for some and that there's no parity is another thing. Now other games that are supposed to be either more serious and their selective camera angles and the suspicious costume choices I agree.
Games like Arkham while I may agree with part of it, Batman has a cape and Catwoman doesn't so is not like they designed the characters on purpose to look like that for no reason.
The videos are always good but I still get the impression from watching and stuff she has said previously that many of the arguments are based on stuff she has seen casually or told by others. She did said that she would start to play games but I still wonder if her impression might change based on playing it more than watching.
Like many in here who even feel shame on having others watching them play Bayonetta, but they as the players recognize not only the great quality of the game but the intention of the character.
You should need a reason to sexualize a character, not a reason not to. Not sexualized should be the norm.
Bringing up Lollipop Chainsaw as part of a wall of examples to show how prevalent the trope is, absolutely, fair enough. But tropes are only a problem when over used, and when looking at preventing over use... I think a game like Lollipop Chainsaw is a good example of one we want to hold on to.
Juliette's boyfriend is as emasculated as any game character that I can think of. He has been reduced from a complete person down to a fashion accessory. He has had everything that made him specifically male removed. He is powerless to stop Juliette putting make up on him.
I mean, that's a really interesting relationship that goes well beyond the normal 'sexy high school cheerleader girlfriend and jock boyfriend' tropes. Furthermore, Juliette gets assaulted by hate speech at one point... literally having the words 'SLUT' yelled at her by a boss that you have to dodge around. Those words physically hurt her if you don't dodge them... and the game makes it very clear that Juliette is anything but a slut, despite how she chooses to dress.
But enough about Lollipop Chainsaw and it's story and depths.
Less sexy ladies butts and more sexy man butts.
I never said women don't like the booty...I just said when it comes to gaming/movies/tv it generally not the focus.
UnrealEck
Member
You do when it's things like her points regarding killing strippers in Hitman Absolution.
However, even if you do play it, it doesn't mean you need to be honest about it.
What is gamergate? I don't really follow this part of the gaming scene it seems.
Version 3.0
Member
Good video and point taken. The contrast is pretty absurd.
However, Anita's position that "butt-ogling" is mutually exclusive with "identifying with a character as a person" is pretty absurd, too. Noticing a nice butt doesn't change a person from a woman to a sex doll in my brain, even if said butt is center screen.
However, Anita's position that "butt-ogling" is mutually exclusive with "identifying with a character as a person" is pretty absurd, too. Noticing a nice butt doesn't change a person from a woman to a sex doll in my brain, even if said butt is center screen.
LiquidMetal14
hide your water-based mammals
It's actually a good video but I would argue that art does imitate life.
Women wear form fitting and provocative clothing all day everyday. Women can do that as well. Power to anyone who's co fident on their physique and knows they got it.
The flip side is how scantily the you get generation is dressing. I am out exercising g everyday and see teens and late HS kids basically dress like hookers craving attention. This paints a broad stroke picture of how basically girls like attention and will dress or act in certain ways to get attention.
I work where I have to deal with customers all the time and women have a small but near universal habit of patting or stroking their backsides and many of my coworker throughout the years have pointed this out. I'm sure there's a name for this but I do think the same primitive principle applies to how men and women are conveyed in games.
Another running joke is how some women go into places of business or stores just to be seen. They look good and are dressed likes it's the princess ball and are just buying a pack of gum or a pencil (exaggerating).
It's a deeper psychology here and both men and women have these certain behavior traits. Men do wear baggoer clothing and women wear tighter clothes and also the short skirts. That's why I lead with art imitates life in the earlier part of my lost.
Does it paint an unfair broad stroke of women? Yes but reality and media and anyone who watches what we consume in games/movies/TV sees where the influence is coming from.
Then there's the obvious capitalization of men being horny toads and sex sells.
I have a longer take but I want to be clear that while I did think the video was rather well done, there is more to this than can be explained in a 6-8m video.
It's good discussion and I hope some are rationally open to salient points from each spectrum.
Women wear form fitting and provocative clothing all day everyday. Women can do that as well. Power to anyone who's co fident on their physique and knows they got it.
The flip side is how scantily the you get generation is dressing. I am out exercising g everyday and see teens and late HS kids basically dress like hookers craving attention. This paints a broad stroke picture of how basically girls like attention and will dress or act in certain ways to get attention.
I work where I have to deal with customers all the time and women have a small but near universal habit of patting or stroking their backsides and many of my coworker throughout the years have pointed this out. I'm sure there's a name for this but I do think the same primitive principle applies to how men and women are conveyed in games.
Another running joke is how some women go into places of business or stores just to be seen. They look good and are dressed likes it's the princess ball and are just buying a pack of gum or a pencil (exaggerating).
It's a deeper psychology here and both men and women have these certain behavior traits. Men do wear baggoer clothing and women wear tighter clothes and also the short skirts. That's why I lead with art imitates life in the earlier part of my lost.
Does it paint an unfair broad stroke of women? Yes but reality and media and anyone who watches what we consume in games/movies/TV sees where the influence is coming from.
Then there's the obvious capitalization of men being horny toads and sex sells.
I have a longer take but I want to be clear that while I did think the video was rather well done, there is more to this than can be explained in a 6-8m video.
It's good discussion and I hope some are rationally open to salient points from each spectrum.
BattleshipErnest
Banned
As usual, she posts an issue...and can't begin to fathom a solution. As clearly just evening things out isn't what she wants.
At least she's gotten far less strawman over time. Actually made me realize how prevalent it can be. But it's clearly why...Put simply, sex sells.
At least she's gotten far less strawman over time. Actually made me realize how prevalent it can be. But it's clearly why...Put simply, sex sells.
plagiarize
Banned
Male power fantasy is a type of male character designed *for men* who want to imagine being this big strong bad ass. Sexualized female characters are a type of female character designed *for men* too.
We'd like to see well rounded characters of all genders, not just characters aimed specifically at men. They can still be attractive, even sexy, without failing to be plausible three dimension people.
And we'd like nice butts to look at should we want, be we male or female, gay or straight. We just don't think it appropriate for every game to be all about butts.
A harassment group that started because a female game dev had sex with someone that is a games journalist. The guy in question never wrote about her outside of writing a list of games that were recently added to Greenlight.
homelessscootaloo
Banned
Maybe so, maybe for you, but in highschool plenty of girls were actually really attractive.
You know how I know you didn't watch the video?
There aren't many women designed in games to be power fantasies. Most all women are designed around the male gaze to be perfectly honest.
....Have you heard the term power fantasy before? It's entirely about letting men embrace raw machoness. Testosterone up to 11, etc. Your description is not something women find overwhelmingly to be what they think is sexual. That form of thinking is only a symptom of games designed so often with that kind of man in mind. Again, it's about the male gaze here. Gaming itself is a form of escape. For the male power fantasy, it's a means of embracing raw masculinity and being reinforced positively for embracing it. This tv tropes page discusses Power Fantasy more.
Corronchilejano
Member
SpideySenses
Member
I thought she was a little harsh on original Tomb Raider, there's no defence for the costume but her butt being in the center of the screen says more about where 3D games were at the time than an artistic direction. Otherwise a great video.
Well that's why I mentioned and always wonder that. She earlier said that she didn't played the games and even said she didn't like games in general. There were some accusations of using Lets Play videos too.
But I've been out if the loop of the controversies so just watch the videos. So always watch but that strikes me at odd.
I don't think this is an entirely true statement.
Context can be everything, and while you might find it hard to believe writing could potentially salvage or explain a character's design (*cough* Quiet *cough*), it's not out of the realm of possibility that actually playing the game can give you a very different view of a character than just looking at designs/reading a synopsis/getting second hand information.
Not wanting to play the games and solely judging them for how they look is literally "judging a book by it's cover", something I thought I learned back in elementary school was something you weren't supposed to do.
Like I get what Anita is trying to do, and no one can credibly argue that fighting for better female representation is a bad thing, but I don't think Anita is doing a terribly good job of weeding out the differences between proper implementations of the trope and exploitive ones. And maybe she doesn't want to. Maybe she doesn't care? I don't know. I'll never know.
TheLetdown
Member
The solution was explicitly stated:
Simply de-emphasize butt worship for female characters.
Did you watch the same video that I did?
sensui-tomo
Member
Can't someone watch someone else play games and make judgements based on that? Like watching let's plays/watching a movie unfold infront of them. Or do you need a controller to make a decision? (this is more in response to all the quotes from my previous post)
Ok, thanks for the info.
Corronchilejano
Member
Just an FYI: This is the quickest way to get banned from these topics by utterly ignoring the subject on the OP.
1. She does enjoy gaming.
2. She doesn't play every game she shows in her videos.
3. She DOES play games and has a twitch account.
4. That has nothing, literally nothing to do with the points she makes, which you'd have to be blind to not see.
Nakkilokki
Banned
I hate her videos so much! It's just her attitude that bugs me. She pretends she's on some important mission to expose the video game industry, when all the context is really 'look at this sexual and/or misogynistic design choice, look at it!'. She will never achieve anything with this.
Take this butt thing for example. A female butt is nice to look at and they are often emphasized in video games because the majority of the players are male. Male butts not so much. Wow, I better make a 6 minute video about this huge issue with the money I cheated off people on the premise that I would actually do something culturally significant and not just pointless rant videos to YouTube.
If I get banned for this offensive message I would like to request it be a permaban.
Take this butt thing for example. A female butt is nice to look at and they are often emphasized in video games because the majority of the players are male. Male butts not so much. Wow, I better make a 6 minute video about this huge issue with the money I cheated off people on the premise that I would actually do something culturally significant and not just pointless rant videos to YouTube.
If I get banned for this offensive message I would like to request it be a permaban.
The Lamonster
Member
Anita must hate Elvira.
I think at least watching Let's Plays (if in their entirety) is a step towards the right way of doing it, and I might be willing to accept criticism/obersations from that point onwards.
But I think there is still a step between "watching someone playing it" and "actually playing it" that may change your personal views on it.
I mean, games are an interactive medium for a reason.
Uh oh...
Coffee Dog
Banned
If you aren't good at games, there's nothing wrong with using lets plays or other assisted formats to criticize them. I'd be with you if she was talking about the gameplay of these titles but she largely isn't. Since she's criticizing the story and characters, all she really has to have knowledge of is the stories and characters. *
*
that's why i won't ever let go of her fairly poor bayonetta critique