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Street Fighter V |OTVII| New Generation - Connection To Haters Was Lost

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T

TheSpoiler

Member
Gr1mLock said:
Disagree thoroughly. I think we can identify things that are too good fairly quickly within the given context. Also the concept of ' how the developers meant for it to be played' is nonsense. It almost never survives contact. If you want players to stay commited either listen to their feedback of do a better job at executing archetypes.
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Can we, though? Like, we all knew why Urien, Laura, and Rog were OD right off the bat, and that some of their absolute bullshit just didn't have a place in the game. That's true.

But when shit like people proclaiming that Rog's OH is a true 50/50 when it isn't muddies the water. The problem is, the community is made up of a bunch of loud people and sometimes they are too reactionary. When people were complaining about Devil's Reverse EX, like nobody wanted to hear that Bison doesn't even have an OH and has to spend meter. It was just "cheap". Imagine if they nerfed that instead of people just learning to dash under it so it misses. (I'm not saying it's completely fair, I'm just saying a lot of people bitched about it instead of watching that video of the guy who was like "okay let's see if we can figure this out, same thing with the Rog OH thing).

The community takes a long time to get used to things, to adapt, and just accept parts of the game. It's the same reason fitting in with the gameplan of the developers is important -because people will ask for shit that just isn't going to work in the sense of the game's design.

I'm not saying don't listen to feedback, nor brush the consumer to the side, but developers need to take a hardline stance on some things and let it rock, because the game will be a bigger mess based on reactionary shit. I think, on a time scale level, the community is fine, but the first few weeks to months figuring things out? It's difficult to separate salt from flavor.

Better to work in tandem than be ruled by people who are pulling every which way. Going hand in hand prevents that and sets expectations.
 
E

Edzi

Member
TheSpoiler said:
Can we, though? Like, we all knew why Urien, Laura, and Rog were OD right off the bat, and that some of their absolute bullshit just didn't have a place in the game. That's true.

But when shit like people proclaiming that Rog's OH is a true 50/50 when it isn't muddies the water. The problem is, the community is made up of a bunch of loud people and sometimes they are too reactionary. When people were complaining about Devil's Reverse EX, like nobody wanted to hear that Bison doesn't even have an OH and has to spend meter. It was just "cheap". Imagine if they nerfed that instead of people just learning to dash under it so it misses. (I'm not saying it's completely fair, I'm just saying a lot of people bitched about it instead of watching that video of the guy who was like "okay let's see if we can figure this out, same thing with the Rog OH thing).

The community takes a long time to get used to things, to adapt, and just accept parts of the game. It's the same reason fitting in with the gameplan of the developers is important -because people will ask for shit that just isn't going to work in the sense of the game's design.

I'm not saying don't listen to feedback, nor brush the consumer to the side, but developers need to take a hardline stance on some things and let it rock, because the game will be a bigger mess based on reactionary shit. I think, on a time scale level, the community is fine, but the first few weeks to months figuring things out? It's difficult to separate salt from flavor.

Better to work in tandem than be ruled by people who are pulling every which way. Going hand in hand prevents that and sets expectations.
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Dude, I think you go a little overboard in your defense of Capcom/playing devil's advocate sometimes. Do you really think they can handle balancing on their own when you look at cases like Nash, FANG, and Alex? Come on. The fact is that a lot of the problems with S1 and S2 were picked up by the community pretty quickly, and we've seen that Capcom ultimately ended up agreeing with them in the end. Nobody is saying that the community should be completely responsible for deciding the balance of the game, but they need to have a bigger part in its development than they're currently allowed to by Capcom.

Also, isn't Rog's V-skill into low/high pretty much a 50/50? Not sure what you're referencing here.
 
F

FluxWaveZ

Member
TheSpoiler said:
But when shit like people proclaiming that Rog's OH is a true 50/50 when it isn't muddies the water.
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What do you mean?

And you're giving too much benefit of the doubt to those who handle balancing at Capcom. It's obvious with some of their decisions that they have no idea what they're doing sometimes. Changes like Urien's cr.MK going from +2 to -2 prove it.
 
S

SolarPowered

Member
Singling out vocal minorities is how things get messed up in the first place. It was only on this page that I heard for the first time about Rog's OH supposedly being in issue, but that is because some people like to look at the silliest twitter posts and elevate them for sheer shock value. Instead it might better to look at consensus. When we look at Balrog I think the consensus revolved around his EX dash punches being near unreactable and we DEFINITELY heard about his damage needing to be scaled down overall. I know I talk too much about Alex, but I'll go ahead and use him as an example too. I've seen Cool Kid 93's S2.5 impression video, his tweets, his Ehubs comments and even his youtube comments. Some of it meshes with what vesperarcade zeroed in on and even what some of us mid-grade Alex players see as a problem. Cool Kid mentions his powerbomb range which everyone knows is shit for a grappler, both he and Vesper agree that his AA situation is not very good even with EX air knee strike becoming more like it's season 1 version again and many people agree with Cool Kid's thoughts on his wakeup options being nonexistent (necessitating a frame one armored EX slash elbow at the very least). If we start looking too deeply we start running into people asking for permanent v-trigger, reverts on his jab AA or whatever other crazy nonsense your average online warrior comes up with.
FluxWaveZ said:
What do you mean?

And you're giving too much benefit of the doubt to those who handle balancing at Capcom. It's obvious with some of their decisions that they have no idea what they're doing sometimes. Changes like Urien's cr.MK going from +2 to -2 prove it.
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Most of Ryu and Alex's partial reverts prove it. Even full reverts of the normals/specials Capcom targeted in season 2.5 those two still wouldn't be in the top ten.
 
T

TheSpoiler

Member
Edzi said:
Dude, I think you go a little overboard in your defense of Capcom sometimes. Do you really think they can handle balancing on their own when you look at cases like Nash, FANG, and Alex? Come on. The fact is that a lot of the problems with S1 and S2 were picked up by the community pretty quickly, and we've seen that Capcom ultimately ended up agreeing with them in the end. Nobody is saying that the community should be completely responsible for deciding the balance of the game, but they need to have a bigger part in its development than they're currently allowed to by Capcom.

Also, isn't Rog's V-skill into low/high pretty much a 50/50? Not sure what you're referencing here.
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I do? Because I've been pretty critical of the lack of defensive options, no v-reversal buff, and not giving any love to Juri in the new patch.

And, that's also why I said this:

Better to work in tandem than be ruled by people who are pulling every which way. Going hand in hand prevents that and sets expectations.
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Maybe I'm confusing the issue for people. I'm basically saying that the community for fighting games in general is made up of a ton of different opinions, and that feedback should be taken in but not applied in every single case. People get reactionary, and changes come too quick. I'm not saying Capcom is perfect - obviously this upcoming patch still has issues - but I don't think the community should run the show in full. I'm just pointing out that we have a tendency to not let things rock and/or switch up how we feel. Overwatch, for example, takes in a lot of feedback, but they don't apply everything that their community wants. I think they strike a decent balance, and they also use the PTR to not only set expectations, but also gain feedback and apply it if need be.

So, tl;dr, of course Capcom needs to involve the community more (why would I mention the fact that they need a beta if I didn't believe that?), I just don't think the community needs to run everything in regards to a game. It needs to be both trying to grow the game, and maybe I misread what Grim was trying to say.
 
K

kirblar

Member
They should just announce that the first X months of a season are a playtest/beta period and they'll always have a follow-up patch. It's what they did with Arcade SF4/SSF4/USF4, no reason not to do it here.
 
P

Pompadour

Member
TheSpoiler said:
Maybe I'm confusing the issue for people. I'm basically saying that the community for fighting games in general is made up of a ton of different opinions, and that feedback should be taken in but not applied in every single case. People get reactionary, and changes come too quick. I'm not saying Capcom is perfect - obviously this upcoming patch still has issues - but I don't think the community should run the show in full. I'm just pointing out that we have a tendency to not let things rock and/or switch up how we feel. Overwatch, for example, takes in a lot of feedback, but they don't apply everything that their community wants. I think they strike a decent balance, and they also use the PTR to not only set expectations, but also gain feedback and apply it if need be.

So, tl;dr, of course Capcom needs to involve the community more (why would I mention the fact that they need a beta if I didn't believe that?), I just don't think the community needs to run everything in regards to a game. It needs to be both trying to grow the game, and maybe I misread what Grim was trying to say.
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I think people overstate how bad the balance in Street Fighter V by a massive amount. Maybe it's due to the popularity of the game or people accustomed to kneejerk balance patches in other genres but SFV had the most balanced first edition of any Street Fighter game and it's easily more balanced than where SF4 was at this point (the console release of vanilla). It's even more balanced than Super Street Fighter 4 was, I'd say, so it goes without saying it's more balanced than essentially every Street Fighter game that isn't SSF4 2k11 or USF4. Most SF games, even the versions everyone loves, were huge messes when it came to balancing.

Pointing to a few particular dumb decisions doesn't automatically make Capcom idiots.
 
T

TheSpoiler

Member
kirblar said:
They should just announce that the first X months of a season are a playtest/beta period and they'll always have a follow-up patch. It's what they did with Arcade SF4/SSF4/USF4, no reason not to do it here.
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That'd be perfect. I know some people were unhappy that a patch is coming while CPT is going on, but if it makes the game better and things can get switched around before bigger events start hitting, go for it.

And the feedback should be funneled better. Not just a bunch of people screeching on Twitter. Like have a survey where people can write stuff in, or host a forum where people can dump things like tech and the like. I want to see more interaction with the community, not just people loudly going in on Twitter either direction.

King Awesome said:
I think people overstate how bad the balance in Street Fighter V by a massive amount. Maybe it's due to the popularity of the game or people accustomed to kneejerk balance patches in other genres but SFV had the most balanced first edition of any Street Fighter game and it's easily more balanced than where SF4 was at this point (the console release of vanilla). It's even more balanced than Super Street Fighter 4 was, I'd say, so it goes without saying it's more balanced than essentially every Street Fighter game that isn't SSF4 2k11 or USF4.

Pointing to a few particular dumb decisions doesn't automatically make Capcom idiots.
Click to expand...

That comes with every iteration of every SF. It's like clockwork, and it's why we need a better way of pushing feedback in and working together to determine what changes should happen rather than ROG IS OP. Yeah, he needs scaling, so what's the percent? Maybe someone can apply some math and let him keep some damage while not letting him get a kill with minimal resources. That sort of thing.
 
S

sixghost

Member
Is there any trick for hit-confirming off of single normals like they kept saying KBrad was doing at Final Round? I keep trying in training mode, and don't know how anyone can react that fast.
 
S

sixteen-bit

Member
sixghost said:
Is there any trick for hit-confirming off of single normals like they kept saying KBrad was doing at Final Round? I keep trying in training mode, and don't know how anyone can react that fast.
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K-Brad mentions that he looks at the opponents stun bar to confirm the move hits more than anything.
 
M

mbpm1

Member
vulva said:
After asking around here and other places this seems to be the definitive bottom 5 (in no order):

Fang
Alex
Nash
Chun
Ryu

with Juri just outside at number 6




edit: damn, Edzi going in on MOV, even though the dude won SBO with a broken hand.
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Juri better than Ryu

:O
 
T

TheSpoiler

Member
A mixture of random block, setting the CPU on training mode and just trying to land one combo, and confidence help. I used to be terrible with Bison and now Necalli, but I'm not leaving so much shit on the table like I used to.

I feel like before I was giving a shit about frame data, I was able to land a lot more though.
 
P

Pompadour

Member
TheSpoiler said:
That comes with every iteration of every SF. It's like clockwork, and it's why we need a better way of pushing feedback in and working together to determine what changes should happen rather than ROG IS OP. Yeah, he needs scaling, so what's the percent? Maybe someone can apply some math and let him keep some damage while not letting him get a kill with minimal resources. That sort of thing.
Click to expand...

I'm all for better ways to deliver feedback and betas but I'm very cautious about Capcom listening too seriously about whatever the complaint of the week happens to be. I think what they're doing now is working so if the plan going forward is one big patch a year and a smaller patch a few months later then I believe it'll be successful. If they start patching every other month because people won't stop bitching at them over Twitter then the game will end up a mess.

Of course, their dev team is Japanese so I imagine that will never happen because any complaints from the West are likely curated and delivered during a weekly meeting, if even that often. I guess that's the silver lining to that style.

sixteen-bit said:
K-Brad mentions that he looks at the opponents stun bar to confirm the move hits more than anything.
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Yes, which is a brilliant way to make hit confirming easier.
 
L

lucebuce12

Member
TheSpoiler said:
You feet people need to get off my planet.
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I'm not a feet guy, I'm a "Vanessa" guy.

rzdxrk.gif
 
P

Producer

Member
vulva said:
After asking around here and other places this seems to be the definitive bottom 5 (in no order):

Fang
Alex
Nash
Chun
Ryu

with Juri just outside at number 6




edit: damn, Edzi going in on MOV, even though the dude won SBO with a broken hand.
Click to expand...

Do you agree with chun being bottom 5? I think at worse shes mid tier. But i dont really know much about other characters lol
 
P

Pompadour

Member
Skab said:
3rd Strike Dudley was the shit. And crazy fun to play as.

I would love to see him back in 5. He fits the games momentum based gameplay very well.

(As does Makoto. Hurry up and give her back to me, Capcom.)
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Yeah, they'd both be great in V. The focus on offensive momentum + normals doing white health damage would work for Dudley extremely well. The only real downside would be that Dudley wouldn't be so special as nearly every character has crazy burst damage in this game.
 
H

HardRojo

Member
For Season 3 I think they should try and see how they can lower damage output across the board without affecting the core gameplay.
 
M

mbpm1

Member
Interficium said:
It seems like at times it can be spaced to be relatively safe?
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-7, but surprising pushback

I was listening to cdjr on the nlbc stream and he says bc of the lack of active frames deliberately spacing it is very tricky however surprisingly few characters can do all about it with that spacing.

lucebuce12 said:
Why isn't everyone's?

And also, Liam Kosta from Mass Effect: Andromeda is really reminding me of TheSpoiler. Looking up at incredibly stacked odds, but somehow still maintains hope that everything's gonna be alright.
Click to expand...

on the other hand cora reminds me of Ken sometimes
bc of the facial expressions
 
T

TheSpoiler

Member
Eh I've lived through worse in terms of balance. But content? That's all blind hope right there. Not gonna lie. Next weekend better be substantially great because even I get fed up with the lack of a roadmap.
 
H

HardRojo

Member
It's a fucking lottery whenever I try to play online with friends from my city, sometimes the FT5 runs smoothly and then the next one goes kaput. The only reason I keep coming back to this game is because it's Street Fighter, if it were any other title I would've dropped it months ago.
 
V

vulva

Member
Producer said:
Do you agree with chun being bottom 5? I think at worse shes mid tier. But i dont really know much about other characters lol
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After some long discussions, I think she's bottom 5 now and in the update she might slide in to bottom 3 depending how the changes are in play.
 
E

Edzi

Member
Every time I play a Laura, I can't help but laugh to myself. I just don't get why this character was designed the way she was. Great buttons, gets in for free AND gets an infinite string of oki/50/50 pressure on knockdowns. Oh, and one of the best fireballs in all fighting games since it can zone and act as a close range free mixup tool.

#Salt
 
V

Vice

Member
Edzi said:
Every time I play a Laura, I can't help but laugh to myself. I just don't get why this character was designed the way she was. Great buttons, gets in for free AND gets an infinite string of oki/50/50 pressure.

#Salt
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The high tier life.
I'll swap characters real quick
 
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