Killer Queen
Banned
This is where I'm at
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Tabata Talks Final Fantasy XV Story Imbalances and the Teams Unconventional Decision
- Thread starter Koozek
- Start date
BibiMaghoo
Member
When the prequel movie to a video game has a better, more coherent and just as incomplete story as the game it is based on and introducing, you know you have fucked up seriously.
Unconventional or not.
Unconventional or not.
makingmusic476
Member
I still haven't started my copy of FFXV. Is the story at least better than XIII's nonsense?
I at least hope the characters are better motivated and less whiny.
I at least hope the characters are better motivated and less whiny.
The main characters are better than Lightning.
But the story is still turd. Well the bits of it they actually tell you anyway.
I mean, yeah, people have tried to spin FFXV as this flawed masterpiece that's great because "WOWEE it's so unconventional!!" so yeah it's funny to see Tabata edge closer and closer to that line.
"We didn't want to create a perfectly balanced story in this game"
Bullshit.
You can't seriously expect anyone to belive 'well we werent trying to make a good story anyway!' to be a not BS answer especially considering your trying to correct course right now
Bullshit.
You can't seriously expect anyone to belive 'well we werent trying to make a good story anyway!' to be a not BS answer especially considering your trying to correct course right now
ULTROS!
People seem to like me because I am polite and I am rarely late. I like to eat ice cream and I really enjoy a nice pair of slacks.
Though XV's story is "missing" or behind the scenes, it's much more understandable than XIII's because it doesn't suddenly toss jargon at you.
Hibiki Kurosawa
Member
But it wasn't all from Noctis's point of view
It's more understandable sure because there's nothing going on.
Septimus Prime
Member
That's basically what you get
at the end of Uncharted 4,
RedAssedApe
Banned
at the very least you don't need to study a compendium
You guys are trying too hard right now. Firstly to demonize another director not even mentioned, but apparently to deflect blame away from Tabata? He's the one making these excuses now, if he just said it didn't come out how they wanted for 'various reasons' and they were taking steps to fix it, it would not even be a thread criticizing him
To be fair, Crisis core was very good, so Tabata has that under his belt. Even Genesis is but a single bad element that i actually feel is more mixed reception wise than universally reviled.
Ganon Dragmire
Member
What a garbage excuse. Tabata has said this before though.
If anyone wants to understand why FFXV is a very badly told story , plus see when he mentioned the whole Noctis' POV bs earlier, and why that doesn't work, please see(Spoilers for all of FFXV) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Bp-uNdefJo
Also from the same interview:
Again more bs. Why say you want to add updates to flesh out
if this was your intent?Why sacrifice the importance of the side characters for main characters that aren't really all that developed nor have any arcs or many cutscenes dedicated to them (Except Noctis), which might be seen only in the paid DLC?
Why make a "Universe" for FFXV and use Noctis' point of view excuse not let us know the cast of said Universe, at least within the game proper.
If anyone wants to understand why FFXV is a very badly told story , plus see when he mentioned the whole Noctis' POV bs earlier, and why that doesn't work, please see(Spoilers for all of FFXV) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Bp-uNdefJo
Also from the same interview:
Again more bs. Why say you want to add updates to flesh out
Ravus
Why make a "Universe" for FFXV and use Noctis' point of view excuse not let us know the cast of said Universe, at least within the game proper.
Spiral Insanity
Banned
What blows is spending $80 or so on the game, and as i wait for the patches the game has already been on sale twice
Why would I play it now with the story content and 60fps patch still being worked on?
Why would I play it now with the story content and 60fps patch still being worked on?
birthbysleep
Member
Someone like Jason Schrier or some other journalist who isn't afraid of pulling punches in an interview needs to sit down with Tabata and call him out on this obvious BS.
Can Crusher
Banned
They wanted to create garbage.
FlutterPuffs
Member
Nothing wrong with the idea.
A horrible implementation though.
A horrible implementation though.
Wait I thought we didn't like 13 because it was too linear...now we want to go back?
Shhh. Don't let them hear you say that. But I agree.
I really think what is going on is that the staff developers are amazing at SE. What they pulled off in 15 is impressive. The problem is the creative talent for writing, characters, worlds, art direction and music are lost. The cinematic thing is just not working. Their vision/leadership is confused and weak. Possibly they are scared because of the past success of the franchise. Too much pressure. Don't know. To me, they need to get their chops back. I would recommend building something from the WoFF, Setsuna and Bravely Default teams, let them take a crack at the next one. It's time to go back to the roots.
ULTROS!
People seem to like me because I am polite and I am rarely late. I like to eat ice cream and I really enjoy a nice pair of slacks.
The problem with Type-0 is that you had to replay the game to get a better understanding on the story and Type-0 uses much more jargon than XIII.
Really, in terms of story XIII beats Type-0.
UnemployedVillain
Member
No, I'm blaming both of them. The resultant FF15 was definitely the result of Nomura completely botching Versus 13 and Tabata picking it up and making bizarre concessions and changes for the worse
Septimus Prime
Member
It does not help that it uses the same jargon as XIII, but the words mean completely different things.
Also, I didn't like the gameplay at all.
Arc Christelle
Member
Sounds like they're planning to make a franchise off this entry with other games to fill in the gaps. Depending on personal interests of the audience this might be great, or terrible.
Question is, will you buy FFXV-2 to find out?
Question is, will you buy FFXV-2 to find out?
jimmypython
Member
then why did they put the cutscene from Kingsglave back in through day one patch?
Just let it go Tabata.
Just let it go Tabata.
There isnt supposed to be a XV-2. Im pretty sure they've said that there won't be one.
Pie and Beans
Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
Looking forward to when in 10 years he can say freely "The project was proper fucked m8. They'd barely developed an intro let alone a whole games worth of plot. I got in there, shipped some half open world, half linear shit, and lied me arse off about artist intention and budgets and whatnot." rather than the excuse circus he has to peddle currently during the games main sales window.
Citation needed.
Fact of the matter is, its Tabata making these weird excuses right now instead of just being straight that they had issues making the game.
Nomura hasn't spoken on Versus 13 or 15 since he left the project and likely won't ever speak on it, so he technically has no place in the convo and hasn't for more than 3 years now
Arc Christelle
Member
That rushed deadline might say differently.
I'd actually say it kind of reinforces it, they wanted it done and out the door so they could move on with DLC and post release materials
mortal
Gold Member
If he's willing to lay claim to the results of that, Tabata is a bad director.
I can't give him credit for the concept or idea, since those were more or less the product of Nomura and Kojima. He says himself it was intentional to tell the story that way. I think FFXV's storytelling was absolutely terrible.
Why does Square Enix struggle to tell a solid and thematically consistent story now. Ever since they introduced voice acting into the series the mellow drama got turned up to 11. Like contract a fucking seasoned drama or adventure writer maybe, something, anything!
I can't give him credit for the concept or idea, since those were more or less the product of Nomura and Kojima. He says himself it was intentional to tell the story that way. I think FFXV's storytelling was absolutely terrible.
Why does Square Enix struggle to tell a solid and thematically consistent story now. Ever since they introduced voice acting into the series the mellow drama got turned up to 11. Like contract a fucking seasoned drama or adventure writer maybe, something, anything!
UnemployedVillain
Member
Because they no longer have Sakaguchi
Death Penalty
Member
What they're saying essentially seems to be "we were trying to do something specific and strange even if it came at the cost of a coherent, robust narrative". Then the evidence doesn't even support that. They have plenty of scenes that don't feature Noctis and they even supplemented in Kingsglaive stuff to try to reach a greater understanding. It seems clear to me that they didn't have enough time to finish the game, though looking at Tabata's prior project in Type-0 it could also be a general lack of writing and presenting ability on he and his team's part.
Neoleo2143
Member
This video is simply excellent and a good watch in general. Succinct, professional, strong contrasting examples from other pieces of media, even a little humorous and manages to be critical without being overly vindictive. Plus his voice is great. Highly recommended.
XIII's jargon is vastly overstated. Using English as my second language I never once had to look into the datalog to understand what was going on in XIII. In fact they do tell you what fal'cie, l'cie and cieth are pretty much directly. Cieth is explained in the first hour of the game and the other terms follow soon after.
Where FFXIII shat the bed (except for the Call of Duty gamedesign) is the ending where stuff happens because reasons. So much so that FFXIII-2 had to retcon it.
Not buying it for a second. There's scenes early on for instance where the story shifts to other characters, who themselves are often referring to vague bullshit the audience doesn't have the background for.
Or like some fights against characters that seem like the game is treating as bigger deals than they are. Like that mech you fight as an early boss. The character is introduced, seems like he might have been important, but nope, not really. Why even bother with the unique model and name and not just make it a mech? Reminds me of the way FFXIII had supporting characters that seemed like they were going to be prominent but then just disappear or get killed.
Or like some fights against characters that seem like the game is treating as bigger deals than they are. Like that mech you fight as an early boss. The character is introduced, seems like he might have been important, but nope, not really. Why even bother with the unique model and name and not just make it a mech? Reminds me of the way FFXIII had supporting characters that seemed like they were going to be prominent but then just disappear or get killed.
It's entirely possible that the story telling in the game is intentional and also that they will patch in changes that are at odds with that decision but in line with player feedback, without any lies being told.
People always jumps to malice when devs make statement when the far more likely reality is that they simply made decisions you don't like.
Edit - If anything I think the way Kingsglaive stuff was added in the day 1 patch lends weight to the idea that their original plan was to tell the game from Noctis's POV as much as possible, and accept the consequences that came with that. I'm not saying any of this is good or bad, just that it sort of checks out.
And of course there was also cut content on top, every game has that, but given the way the game turned out it's highly likely that cut content was also going to be told in the same way as the rest of the story.
People always jumps to malice when devs make statement when the far more likely reality is that they simply made decisions you don't like.
Edit - If anything I think the way Kingsglaive stuff was added in the day 1 patch lends weight to the idea that their original plan was to tell the game from Noctis's POV as much as possible, and accept the consequences that came with that. I'm not saying any of this is good or bad, just that it sort of checks out.
And of course there was also cut content on top, every game has that, but given the way the game turned out it's highly likely that cut content was also going to be told in the same way as the rest of the story.
Autoignition
Member
You have literally no evidence that Nomura botched Versus. And even if he did, that's no excuse for Tabata's decision-making for this game.
Tabata was the director for FFXV. Period. As a director, he focused on the wrong things. He wanted so badly for his "boys' night road trip" that he focused way too much of his time and resources on the open world, which in the end amounted to little more than MMO-style fetch quests. The story suffered as a result, and all of his characters got neutered into little more than stylistic accessories for Noctis.
There are enough elements in the extended world of FFXV that have promise, and nothing that indicates that it was beyond saving in development. There's a good story in there that's just told poorly. There's no reason why Tabata couldn't have cleaned it up and released a more complete product, if only his focus had been more story-driven. He did a bad job as director. You can't blame Nomura for this.
SO MUCH THIS. This is honestly what I really, really loved about FF13's storytelling. It told like a fantasy novel. I never understood, and will likely never understand, people who say that the story was too confusing. (Barring the end of the game where things kind of fell apart.)
If Noctis and co were actually doing something substantial while these other major plot points were going on, then yeah this would have totally worked.
Instead it's "full scale war in a massive city vs. pushing a car".
Ideally they would see a unique perspective on a massive story, but in FFXV it's more like Noct is a clear cut non-participant in the story.
Say what you will about ME3's ending, but the overall story arc of ME3 tackled this EXACT concept quite well. "Earth is invaded, Shepherd leaves Earth and travels the galaxy to the front lines of many battles to forge alliances(all massive missions with big stakes), and then returning home with the support for the final battle."
The key difference was the middle portion of the game. Shepherd wasn't on his home turf either, but he was fighting the war in his own way on the outside. Noct was just blindly following Ardyn, without any agency at all.
Instead it's "full scale war in a massive city vs. pushing a car".
Ideally they would see a unique perspective on a massive story, but in FFXV it's more like Noct is a clear cut non-participant in the story.
Say what you will about ME3's ending, but the overall story arc of ME3 tackled this EXACT concept quite well. "Earth is invaded, Shepherd leaves Earth and travels the galaxy to the front lines of many battles to forge alliances(all massive missions with big stakes), and then returning home with the support for the final battle."
The key difference was the middle portion of the game. Shepherd wasn't on his home turf either, but he was fighting the war in his own way on the outside. Noct was just blindly following Ardyn, without any agency at all.
I still find it rather incredible that despite the story issues, we still got a damn fine main FF protagonist, a memorable crew of paty members (especially Prompto) and one of the best FF villains in decades. I understand the issues people have with Luna but I thought she was given adequate time to showcase her pivotal role in the story (though I will happily take more cutscenes with her if possible, SE!)
Autoignition
Member
What pivotal role? If you took Luna out of the story and scrubbed the lore clean of any mention of an Oracle at all, nothing would've changed.
Supermanisdead
Member
My god, this has got to be the dumbest spin I've heard since the last Conway interview.