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[Randy Lanzarote]

I'm quite surprised this hasn't been floated before. Everyone knows Brexit is going to be shit, so why would one party want to claim full responsibility for it?*

Hopefully the powers that be can work together to come to a Brexit which is the least-shit for the country.



* Other than the Redwood's, Rees-Mogg's of the world who think that leaving the EU will be all sunshine, roses and a return of our Empire. They don't count. And hopefully will be completely sideline, or just locked out of parliament for the next 3 years.

 

[Meadows]

It's an strategy. The EU positions as a cohesive front (which it is, for the first time in decades) while the UK's is forced to hastily ready itself, reducing its bargaining power.

Time (as long as we don't run out of it) greatly works in the EU's favour.

I agree that for now the EU is very unified (which is a great thing!), but I think there is a fine line behind strategy on the one side and a lack of understanding on the other.

There is no such thing as "Britain" you can't just go and talk to "Britain", we have devolved administrations in each of the nations, as well as at city and council level, as well as parliament - which is divided at the moment.

The only real way to form anything resembling an all encompassing version of "Britain" is for a cross-party, cross-administration (incl Scot, NI, Wales, London, Mcr etc) force, which is thankfully what we are starting to see. This - however - will strengthen the UK's position and could make the deal a bit worse on the EU side.

I think we will stay in ultimately but by paying a big tariff.

I don't think so I'm afraid. The four freedoms seem quite clear and I think all sides respect that.

 

[nekkid]

The entire government is going to operate behind her back while Theresa continues to mutter strong stable leadership

It's a bit obscure a reference, but I'm imagining that scene in Sunshine where Harvey is on the verge of tears saying "the mission needs a captain to hold things together" lol

 

[theaface]

I'm quite surprised this hasn't been floated before. Everyone knows Brexit is going to be shit, so why would one party want to claim full responsibility for it?*

Hopefully the powers that be can work together to come to a Brexit which is the least-shit for the country.



* Other than the Redwood's, Rees-Mogg's of the world who think that leaving the EU will be all sunshine, roses and a return of our Empire. They don't count. And hopefully will be completely sideline, or just locked out of parliament for the next 3 years.

I can just about understand a hoodwinked electorate, but the thing that has consistently bamboozles me is the euro-skepticism among the political 'elite'. These must be intelligent people to get to where they have in life. IDS is many things, but I'm sure he's not stupid.

They MUST know that belonging to the EU is infinitely better for the UK than being outside it, the single market and the customs union? They MUST know that their promises of new alliances and trade arrangements with the EU and the rest of the world are unrealistic and undeliverable? They MUST understand that if we went for a hard Brexit, the truth of the matter would come to light very quickly and very bluntly? The charade would evaporate and we'd be left a shell of our former selves, isolated and poorer, and it would be their legacy for all of history.

So can someone please tell me why this lunatic fringe within the political establishment has such a hard-on for cutting all ties with the EU*?

*Boris doesn't count because he's nothing more than a career opportunist chancer.

 

[PJV3]

Still don't know what "soft" Brexit means.

EEA member? That means 4 freedoms.

Bilateral trade agreements? That'll take several years to complete.

Is this a Norway or a Turkey?

And the sad part is, no one really knows.

Kick hard brexit into the long grass as a future ambition and swallow the 4 freedoms as a cross party decision.

Gove is on about 2 years, it will have to be longer for the EU to agree.

 

[Peccavi]

Well well well.

Strong and stable.

 

[Meadows]

SURELY at the very least we have to find an agreement to stay in the SM for a transitional period of 2 more years after 2019?

 

[Randy Lanzarote]

I can just about understand a hoodwinked electorate, but the thing that has consistently bamboozles me is the euro-skepticism among the political 'elite'. These must be intelligent people to get to where they have in life. IDS is many things, but I'm sure he's not stupid.

They MUST know that belonging to the EU is infinitely better for the UK than being outside it, the single market and the customs union? They MUST know that their promises of new alliances and trade arrangements with the EU and the rest of the world are unrealistic and undeliverable? They MUST understand that if we went for a hard Brexit, the truth of the matter would come to light very quickly and very bluntly? The charade would evaporate and we'd be left a shell of our former selves, isolated and poorer, and it would be their legacy for all of history.

So can someone please tell me why this lunatic fringe within the political establishment has such a hard-on for cutting all ties with the EU*?

*Boris doesn't count because he's nothing more than a career opportunist chancer.

The only answer I keep coming back to is that they are career politicians who've never had a real job, no understanding of how the real world works, never had to worry about meeting targets or passing annual reviews with flying colours because they are in safe seats that would vote for a turnip if you stuck a blue rosette on it.

They no doubt think that money just grows on trees. But because of EU Rules on the planting of money growing trees they've been purposely holding us back as a nation, even though we used to rule India and won the World Cup in 66.

 

[Oriel]

Christ, the Telegraph makes it sound like these MP's are plotting treason against the Crown or something.

 

[Joni]

SURELY at the very least we have to find an agreement to stay in the SM for a transitional period of 2 more years after 2019?

Oh that would just be about the hardest thing to get in these negotiations.

 

[Funky Papa]

I just wonder how much of a U turn tabloids and the sligthly more reputable tory papers are going to make if soft Brexit becomes the new official position.

Because that is going to be one hard sell to pitch.

 

[JonnyDBrit]

I just wonder how much of a U turn are tabloids and the sligthly more reputable tory papers are going to made if soft Brexit becomes the new official position.

Because that is going to be one hard sell to pitch.

...Man, imagine the fucking Sun singing the praises of Eastern European migration.

 

[naweednrahman]

Cross party presence for the meeting will provide some firepower to our negotiations. Whether it will be effective is another issue.

 

[oti]

So basically keep all the EU regulations with no say in Europe policies. Lol what a complete shitshow. At least the sane people in the UK would evade the worst outcome.

 

[PJV3]

Cross party presence for the meeting will provide some firepower to our negotiations. Whether it will be effective is another issue.

They just want a reliable negotiating partner, it doesn't give us more power, it just means it's less likely to be a waste of time.

 

[Meadows]

They just want a reliable negotiating partner, it doesn't give us more power, it just means it's less likely to be a waste of time.

Yeah, and I don't see any way that it could backfire.

If at the next election Labour say "you're so incompetent you needed us to negotiate that for you" then that's really going to look very low when it's in the national interest to do it.

 

[Siegcram]

Almost like all of this was ill-conceived from the get-go.

 

[djplaeskool]

Lord Buckethead was right.

 

[Lego Boss]

There's doesn't seem to be anyone in control .

FTFY

 

[JonnyDBrit]

Lord Buckethead was right.

"It's going to be a SHITSHOW!"

Might as well be the title for a new OT

 

[Meadows]

Anyone know which media company/site is the best for following EU comment and thought (in English)?

I don't think the BBC or Sky have particularly good EU sources at the moment, they never seem to have any idea what's going on.

 

[Funky Papa]

Anyone know which media company/site is the best for following EU comment and thought (in English)?

I don't think the BBC or Sky have particularly good EU sources at the moment, they never seem to have any idea what's going on.

www.euractiv.com (seems down right now, they've been having tech issues for a couple of days)
www.politico.eu (with your typically "colorfoul" American slant approach to politics)
www.
www.euobserver.com (pretty good, but will ask you for a subscription after reading a couple of articles)

 

[Zaph]

I just wonder how much of a U turn tabloids and the sligthly more reputable tory papers are going to make if soft Brexit becomes the new official position.

Because that is going to be one hard sell to pitch.

Mentioned this in the UK politics thread, but it feels like the Tories are going to pitch this to the public via surrogates (like the EEF showing concern at hard Brexit today) and floating statistics/surveys (like the EU nurses story yesterday).

"How To Make U-Turns Not Look Like U-Turns" The Theresa May Memoirs, on bookshelves soon.

 

[NekoFever]

Step in the right direction. The next step is realizing that the softest Brexit is no Brexit at all.

Suits me. It fulfils the wording of the referendum but without torpedoing the country for a generation.

It's worse than what we have now in that we'd effectively be in the EU without the power and concessions, but I consider that fitting punishment for how fucking stupid holding that referendum was.

 

[Funky Papa]

From The Guardian.

 

[Meadows]

The German Finance minister was just interviewed on Bloomberg.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-welcome-back-if-brexit-were-to-be-overturned

This is huge. If you read between the lines it's clear that Hammond was actively against the whole message the Tories took to the campaign re: Brexit. He's clearly the best hope of pro-EU voters in the UK (in terms of he's in a position of influence and pro-EU).

It was rumoured before but never has it been said this clearly.

 

[jelly]

So basically keep all the EU regulations with no say in Europe policies. Lol what a complete shitshow. At least the sane people in the UK would evade the worst outcome.

It's like people didn't listen before Brexit. Best deal, best perks, have a say but........nah wrecking ball, worse deal. Whoops.

 

[SteveWD40]

Good to see, I was always appalled by the way the Torys were treating Brexit. I mean, it's a shit idea anyway but if we are insisting on doing it we shouldn't be ignoring the 48% who voted remain (including me) and treating them like enemies of the state.

I remain cautious, much of the current language is a knee jerk reaction to the election, the pressure must be kept on The Torys as they struggle to adjust to a reality they didn't think existed (the one where people are sick of their shit / don't listen to the print rags).

The German Finance minister was just interviewed on Bloomberg.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-welcome-back-if-brexit-were-to-be-overturned

This is huge. If you read between the lines it's clear that Hammond was actively against the whole message the Tories took to the campaign re: Brexit. He's clearly the best hope of pro-EU voters in the UK (in terms of he's in a position of influence and pro-EU).

It was rumoured before but never has it been said this clearly.

It was long rumoured Hammond was firmly pro EU, good to see it's the case.

 

[Funky Papa]

The German Finance minister was just interviewed on Bloomberg.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-welcome-back-if-brexit-were-to-be-overturned

This is huge. If you read between the lines it's clear that Hammond was actively against the whole message the Tories took to the campaign re: Brexit. He's clearly the best hope of pro-EU voters in the UK (in terms of he's in a position of influence and pro-EU).

It was rumoured before but never has it been said this clearly.

The UK would find itself entombed by a massive debt of political capital. I can't see the UK remaining and turning the whole thing into a farce without making some pretty extreme concessions (read: equal rights and obligations) that much of the population and many politicians would never accept.

But it's good to see that some people still have a working brain despite the appearances.

 

[Pyramid head]

Brexit was never, ever destined to be anything other than a catastrophic shitshow on a globally embarrassing scale. An act born of racist morons, enacted by racist morons and voted for by racists, morons and racist morons.

 

[autumnleaf]

But we've taken back control, that's all that matters.

 

[gutter_trash]

 

[Meadows]

The UK would find itself entombed by a massive debt of political capital. I can't see the UK remaining and turning the whole thing into a farce without making some pretty extreme concessions (read: equal rights and obligations) that much of the population and many politicians would never accept.

But it's good to see that some people still have a working brain despite the appearances.

No, I'd say the chances of us staying in the EU fully are low (around 10%), but I wouldn't bet against there being a solution that makes it almost exactly the same as being in the EU so that the politicians can save face but not kill our country.

Perhaps we could be some kind of "special envoy" or something like that with a degree of influence on the EU but without seats in parliament. We could also increase funding in some areas of the EU's projects (e.g. security and intel) but reduce our headline contribution as a way of making it seem like we have a better deal. (Essentially paying more money into EU coffers but in a more covert way that attracts less attn).

Again, with immigration, we could "end freedom of movement" but then do something like permit all immigrants with a job offer to move over (which is effectively what happens anyway as very few immigrants come without a job). That will appease the right wing but have almost no real world implications on the EU/UK econ. Same could be done in reverse to UK citizens in the EU.

 

[SteveWD40]

I can just about understand a hoodwinked electorate, but the thing that has consistently bamboozles me is the euro-skepticism among the political 'elite'. These must be intelligent people to get to where they have in life. IDS is many things, but I'm sure he's not stupid.

They MUST know that belonging to the EU is infinitely better for the UK than being outside it, the single market and the customs union? They MUST know that their promises of new alliances and trade arrangements with the EU and the rest of the world are unrealistic and undeliverable? They MUST understand that if we went for a hard Brexit, the truth of the matter would come to light very quickly and very bluntly? The charade would evaporate and we'd be left a shell of our former selves, isolated and poorer, and it would be their legacy for all of history.

So can someone please tell me why this lunatic fringe within the political establishment has such a hard-on for cutting all ties with the EU*?

*Boris doesn't count because he's nothing more than a career opportunist chancer.

I can't get past this, other than to assume that although intelligent, they are immensely out of touch with the real world (as said above).

I also accept that many of them talk utter shit in order to look tough / strong to their racist constituents.

 

[Mimosa97]

When you run to the loo after a sanitary post-drinking kebab and the stink that comes first warns you of the horrors that lie ahead.

Lmao

 

[GamingKaiju]

If we're heading for a "soft Brexit" may as well go and cancel this shot show now. Go back to the EU renegotiate our membership and rescind article 50 and activate the brakes we have available on FoM.

I'm fucking flabbergasted that it only took 12 months for the government to rethink Brexit.

 

[Anoregon]

So is this current swing entirely a result of the election results? I imagine they would be singing a different tune if the expected Tory Sweep happened.
Disclaimer: I am not a british.

 

[Air Zombie Meat]

I'm at the point where I don't give a shit about leavers votes being ignored. Instead of recognising they made a mistake and wanting to compromise they continue to tumble further into delusion as the country burns around them.

 

[Meadows]

So is this current swing entirely a result of the election results? I imagine they would be singing a different tune if the expected Tory Sweep happened.
Disclaimer: I am not a british.

There's a bit more nuance, but essentially yes.

 

[oti]

The UK would find itself entombed by a massive debt of political capital. I can't see the UK remaining and turning the whole thing into a farce without making some pretty extreme concessions (read: equal rights and obligations) that much of the population and many politicians would never accept.

But it's good to see that some people still have a working brain despite the appearances.

TAKE
THE
EURO

 

[Saladinoo]

If this is the approach, then why fucking leave at all? To tick the box and say, "there you go, Mr. Voter"?

Weird as it sounds I at least understand a hard Brexit situation. This "soft" approach just seems utterly pointless.

I'm with you, I would still plump for soft brexit all the way, but if we go for it, legit what was the fucking point at all?

 

[Theonik]

The German Finance minister was just interviewed on Bloomberg.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-welcome-back-if-brexit-were-to-be-overturned

This is huge. If you read between the lines it's clear that Hammond was actively against the whole message the Tories took to the campaign re: Brexit. He's clearly the best hope of pro-EU voters in the UK (in terms of he's in a position of influence and pro-EU).

It was rumoured before but never has it been said this clearly.

Pro-tip. Never listen to Schaeuble. The guy is a snake.

TAKE
THE
EURO

If there ever was a deal that was bad enough that an absence of a deal was better that would be said deal.

 

[scamander]

No, I'd say the chances of us staying in the EU fully are low (around 10%), but I wouldn't bet against there being a solution that makes it almost exactly the same as being in the EU so that the politicians can save face but not kill our country.

Perhaps we could be some kind of "special envoy" or something like that with a degree of influence on the EU but without seats in parliament.

I only see three scenarios the EU would be ok with.
I. Hard Brexit
II. The UK becomes a member of EFTA
III. The UK stays a member of the EU, but will lose all extra privileges and can't trigger article 50 for at least another 20 years.

The third option is the only one the UK will keep influence over the EU and it is also the least likely one. Personally, as much as I can empathise with everyone from the UK who never wanted to leave, I don't want the UK to hold Europe back anymore. The second option is basically the same deal, with the added bonus of not offering democratic representation to the electorate that voted for this mess. In my book, that's a plus for progressives from the UK, too.

 

[oti]

Pro-tip. Never listen to Schaeuble. The guy is a snake.


If there ever was a deal that was bad enough that an absence of a deal was better that would be said deal.

TEK
DA
YURO

 

[Meadows]

Pro-tip. Never listen to Schaeuble. The guy is a snake.

Why? (Honestly curious, I don't know anything about him)

 

[The Greek Freak]

I understand choosing a leader on a barely above 50% vote, but it always seemed like madness to put Brexit on a 50% vote when it's not something that could be reversed in 2-3 years.

Something as country changing as Brexit should've required a mandate.

 

[Meadows]

I only see three scenarios the EU would be ok with.
I. Hard Brexit
II. The UK becomes a member of EFTA
III. The UK stays a member of the EU, but will lose all extra privileges and can't trigger article 50 for at least another 20 years.

The third option is the only one the UK will keep influence over the EU and it is also the least likely one. Personally, as much as I can empathise with everyone from the UK who never wanted to leave, I don't want the UK to hold Europe back anymore. The second option is basically the same deal, with the added bonus of not offering democratic representation to the electorate that voted for this mess. In my book, that's a plus for progressives from the UK, too.

The idea that number 3 would be offered to the UK is insane. Can you imagine how difficult it would be to try and sell the British public on going back into the EU after the ref results alone.

Let alone if you put a punishment on it.

 

[Funky Papa]

Schaeuble and Oettinger are proof of Germany producing the best villains in the world.

 

[Theonik]

Why? (Honestly curious, I don't know anything about him)

Massive history of corruption. (reason he's on a wheelchair was an assassination attempt because of said scandals) Oversaw the sale of East German assets to his friends after re-unification, he also has a huge record of doublespeak in those things. If you like you can read his history and his involvement in the Grexit discussions where he tried to pull off the same thing. He's a great politician and his electorate respects him for it but you should remember that you are not his electorate and he is in fact NOT on your side.

E: Especially take his word with a huge grain of salt when he is effectively trying to prop up an alternative to your acting Prime-minister. That doesn't mean he's wrong. He's not thinking of your benefit though. But what is to his benefit.

 

[scamander]

The idea that number 3 would be offered to the UK is insane. Can you imagine how difficult it would be to try and sell the British public on going back into the EU after the ref results alone.

Let alone if you put a punishment on it.

Oh, I know the UK would never take the deal. All I was saying is that those are probably conditions the EU would insist on, in case the UK wants to stay. Those conditions are not meant to be punishments btw. They are a necessity to protect the EU while dealing with an unstable/ unreliable partner and also a reminder that the UK is an EQUAL among 28 member states and not some special entity. There would be no more special treatment for the UK and that has to be made very clear.